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I seem to remember a post some time ago which discussed how to decide how many layers to go with. But I can't find it! Anyone remember this? Or can help me out now? Me - 5'6", 160, side and stomach sleeper. Husband - 5'10", 170, stomach sleeper. I definitely like more cushion than my husband. I'm thinking to put these latex layers on top of our current box spring, whcih seems to be in good condition (and is attached nicely to our iron bed :) Also, I'm thinking either Firm or X Firm core - any advice here? Susan |
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Well typically it is recommended that you use latex on a platform bed or other solid foundation, rather than a traditional boxspring. That is of course up to you. :) Firm vs. X-Firm varies by company so you would need to know what the ILDs are. It might be tough to find a firmness in any mattress good for stomach and side sleeping simultaneously (as you said you do both). I've somewhat got this problem also as I almost always go to sleep on my side, but I often wake up on my stomach. Although it's hard to compare a latex mattress to an innerspring in any sense, I think a 44ILD (Talatex) latex would be the closest to a firm innerspring. I am 6'1", 170 lbs and I still sink a bit with our 36ILD natural Talalay. If you have looked at Flobeds, a 36 is an Xtra-Firm. Typically when I see 4 layers listed on a website it means 3 cores + a topper. I think 2 cores is enough so that you won't bottom out. Some people like myself opt for 3 cores to add height or perhaps just to get better customization if you are using cores of different firmnesses. |
| What exactly is a core? I feel dumb for having to ask, as I've done so many hours of research on this. I thought a core was 5.6", also referred to as a "mattress" (like foamorder.com does). But then I go to flobeds.com, and the Posture Select is 9" tall - that is 2 cores and 1 convoluted topper of 2". I guess that makes each of the "cores" 3.5". Does that sound right? |
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That 9" includes the finished height of the mattress with the quilting filler, (wool or dacron). The cores in most mattress kits are made by splitting the original core as it comes out of the mold in half. Typically the split cores measure about 2.8 inches. When you're talking mattress kit, cores are just the latex components inside the cover. When you order your mattress you can specify a split configuration. Each half of the bed can be built to different specifications-- softer for one partner, firmer for the other, etc. For stomach sleepers I would go firmer, although I think 44 ILD is way too firm for most people to sleep on directly, unless you like sleeping on squishy concrete. Side sleeping is where it gets tricky configuring latex. Talalay at the softer settings has a tendency to hammock at the hips--which can be very uncomfortable for side sleepers. If you are going to put the mattress on a box spring 2 layers may be enough. However, I don't really recommend latex on a box spring. Talalay is VERY bouncy all by itself and has little body to it, so the innersprings may not give the mattress enough support. It can even excentuate the hammocking effect. Also latex is very heavy and may actually damage an innerspring that is not designed to take the weight. You can try it if you don't mind risking the boxspring, and if it doesn't work I suggest buying a foundation from a local mattress store. It will be cheaper and you can get it delivered and installed on your bedframe. |
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Thanks for the info Cloud. I guess we'll try the boxspring and if there's issues, we can switch out then. Anyone else have any input on how to choose 2, 3, or 4 layers? This message was modified Oct 8, 2007 by suz312
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| Suz312, I chose three latex cores and a topper for the height of the mattress and for the ability to move more cores around to get the exact feel I wanted. I have been very happy with FloBeds 90 day exhange policy and customer support. I love my bed so much and I love the 10" legs over the slat box. I really feel latex needs a solid surfact to be on top of like I have now. Good luck in whatever decision you make. |
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For stomach sleeping I like: 2" 32 ILD top 3" 36 ILD middle 3" 44 ILD bottom I do not like that configuration for side sleeping. I can't imagine any configuration that would be firm enough for stomach sleeping and soft enough for side sleeping. That is a very difficult combination. I think you should focus on one or the other and build to that goal if possible. |
| This combination sounds like the SleepEZ medium, firm, extra firm configuration. That's pretty firm and a good place to start for someone who likes a firm bed. I found it completely avoided the hammocking issue softer Talalay configurations are prone to, but if you don't have much padding on your hips it can feel pretty hard for side sleeping,so you might want to add a 1.5 to 2" topper of softer latex. Try it without first. |
| Has anyone used only 1 layer? I have been planning to get 6" of 36 ILD latex over a flexible slat foundation, with the possibility of adding a 1" or 2" topper if the bed feels to firm. Is there anything wrong with just 1 core or should I be getting 2-6" cores? Cost is the only reason I am shying away from 2 cores, as that would cost...twice as much. |
| The Thickness of Latex Cores from FloBeds.com and SleepEZ.com are from 2.8" (for blended latex) to 3.0" (for natural latex) so a 6" core would be like you having two latex cores. I think that would be fine with a topper over a slat box or platform bed. I would not put latex on top of a box spring since latex needs a very firm solid foundation. |
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The flexible slat foundation definitely lets you get away with a thinner mattress. It almost totally eliminates any "bottoming out," even with only a single 5.6" latex core. In fact, the thicker the mattress, the less effect the flexible slat foundation will have, so you won't want to go over about 8". IMO. The trick with a solid core is getting the right firmness. The benefit of "half cores" is you can adjust simply by changing the order of the layers. I bought an ILD 40 core because I was afraid 44 would be too firm and 36 too soft. In fact, I would have been better served in buying two "half cores," one of 36 and one of 44. That would have given me two choices of firmness: 36/44 and 44/36. Technically a "core" is 5.6" or 6" thick. This term is also used by Flobeds to refer to what is essentially a quarter core since it's half as thick and half as wide as a full core. MequonJim and Cloud9, your comments reflect my experience as well. I am sleeping on 38, 38, 32 and it's pretty firm for side sleeping. It's tricky though. On a solid platform I felt like my hips were sinking while at the same time it was too firm for my shoulders. It's a balancing act to get both support AND pressure point relief simultaneously with a foam mattress. This message was modified Oct 17, 2007 by haysdb
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Today I stopped by a foam store to try out beds. They don't have layering systems set up. They sell the 6" cores + toppers. They had one bed with only one firm core + padded case and it felt pretty good. I'd say you could definitely go with just one layer, so long as it's the right firmness for you. The only thing to keep in mind is that it will be just 6 or so inches high - it looks kinda short, but really no shorter than the old conventional mattresses. The configuration I really liked was 1 6" core + 1 3" topper + 1 padded case (wool, muslin, cotton). It was 100% natural dunlop, and a little on the soft side. So now I'm debating about whether to go with that, or find a similar Talatech combination, which might last longer. |
| I wouldn't worry about the natural dunlop not holding up. Sears sold latex mattresses in the 60's that are still in use today. Here is a page that shows some pictures of these mattresses and their mattress tags showing when they were manufactured. Click the pause button on the annoying Flash animation at the top of the page. |
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Dunlop latex is very different in feel from Talalay. I slept on a Dunlop for over 20 years. I don't even think it was 6" thick and was sold with a boxspring. Having slept on both Dunlop and Talalay I have to say I really prefer the Dunlop. Talalay can be tricky to configure. Too firm and it can feel like it's excerting pressure on your body. Too soft, your hips sink in. Dunlop on the other hand doesn't share any of these characteristics. I think with Talalay it's absolutely necessary to build a mattress out of several layers of different ILD's. With Dunlop it's possible to get support and comfort all in the same layer. I can say from experience that Dunlop will last a long, long time. I had mine for 20 years before the mattress started to dry up and slowly disintegrate. This message was modified Oct 19, 2007 by cloud9
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suz312 wrote: .........and a little on the soft side. If it felt a little on the soft side in the store, it may not provide enough support for a full night sleep. Your muscles probably did not fully relax when you laid on it in the store. If you buy this, make sure you can swap it out for a firmer mattress in case you wake up with soreness due to lack of support after a full night sleep. |
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cloud9 wrote: Dunlop latex is very different in feel from Talalay. I slept on a Dunlop for over 20 years. I don't even think it was 6" thick and was sold with a boxspring. Having slept on both Dunlop and Talalay I have to say I really prefer the Dunlop. Talalay can be tricky to configure. Too firm and it can feel like it's excerting pressure on your body. Too soft, your hips sink in. Dunlop on the other hand doesn't share any of these characteristics. I think with Talalay it's absolutely necessary to build a mattress out of several layers of different ILD's. With Dunlop it's possible to get support and comfort all in the same layer. I agree that a single core of latex cannot be both supportive AND soft. Perhaps for a front or back sleeper it could work, but not for a side-sleeper. IMO. In order for any foam to accomplish this feat, I think it would need to be soft on the top and more firm toward the bottom. I don't know how dunlop latex was made in the 60's, but one of the things I read over and over about dunlop latex is that the heavier particles sink to the bottom. I have only a layman's understanding of this, but I can see how this cwould make dunlop more firm on the bottom. I also suspect this is highly variable and it may not be wise to over-generalize this being a characteristic of all dunlop latex. Depending on whether a company felt this characteristic was desirable or undesirable, they could possibly alter their process to maximize this characteristic or minimize it. Talalay has a uniform density throughout the foam and therefore in order to simulate this soft-on-the-top firmer-on-the-bottom feel, it must be layered. This is just my own "theory" as to why dunlop latex might feel different than talalay. There are companies who still swear by dunlop latex. I have been guilty of assuming this was due to availability and price rather than a choice based on quality, but it may relate to this hard to quantify aspect of "feel." |
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Thanks for the info on Dunlop. Now I'm leaning towards going with it, although I was hoping not to spend quite that much - ~$1000 for just the core. I would step up the firmness to firm topper on top of x-firm core. Their display was medium topper on x-firm core. Is anyone familiar with mattresses.net? They're offering just the core for $600. It's Talalay, 60/40 synthetic/natural. Anyone buy from them before? I wonder where they get their mattresses from. |
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suz312 wrote: Is anyone familiar with mattresses.net? They're offering just the core for $600. It's Talalay, 60/40 synthetic/natural. Anyone buy from them before? I wonder where they get their mattresses from. I have not done business with them but they have crossed my radar for the simple fact that they sell solid core mattresses and their prices are good. I spent $900 on a Cal King Talatech core, and this was a very good price. FoamSource wanted over $1100. Remember, there are only three companies which manufacture talalay latex at this time, AFAIK, and as far as Dewey at FloBeds or Shawn at SleepEZ are aware. It won't be long before we start seeing Chinese talalay latex mattresses, but this isn't happening yet. There is Latex International of course, Dunlopillo in the UK, and Radium in the Netherlands. SleepEZ.com has some information on each of these companies. Talatech may be the best, but his customers that hail from Europe swear by Dunlopillo according to Shawn. Dunlopillo has been in business since the 1930's. They invented the talalay process in 1946. They were the first to produce an all natural talalay. Radium is a subsidiary of the Vita Group, an international company with over 8000 employees. They list 18 brands of mattresses on their website that use their Vita Talalay latex. They have manufactured talalay latex since 1961. I don't really see how you can go too far wrong purchasing talalay latex even if you don't know who makes it, because they are all good. A picture from Radium's website. They do some kinky fabrication. This message was modified Oct 19, 2007 by haysdb
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Thanks again Hayes for your very helpful info. Do you think I could go wrong buying a Dunlop mattress? May I ask where you got your Talatech Cal King? That is a great price for the Talatech. I was pretty set on getting a Talatech core, before I came across this Dunlop core at this foam store. It was so comfy! Maybe I should go with a Talatech core, and add the 3" topper and padded case from this store. Now, trying to compare apples with oranges ~ do you think a 100% natural Dunlop x-firm core might equate in firmness to a Talalay firm core? |
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suz312 wrote: Thanks again Hayes for your very helpful info. Do you think I could go wrong buying a Dunlop mattress? May I ask where you got your Talatech Cal King? That is a great price for the Talatech. I was pretty set on getting a Talatech core, before I came across this Dunlop core at this foam store. It was so comfy! Maybe I should go with a Talatech core, and add the 3" topper and padded case from this store. Now, trying to compare apples with oranges ~ do you think a 100% natural Dunlop x-firm core might equate in firmness to a Talalay firm core? [Begin Book] The firmness descriptions such as Firm, Extra Firm and Super Firm are not standardized units of measure. One company's X-firm may be another company's Firm or Super Firm. ILD's are more useful. Both FloBeds and SleepEZ show the ILD ranges that correspond to their descriptions. They use the descriptions because they at least mean SOMETHING to folks who don't know an ILD from an IUD, and us tech-heads can find the numbers on the FAQ pages. The risk with dunlop is there are a LOT of manufacturers of dunlop, with quality ranging from excellent (Sapsa etal.) to, I would imagine, pretty poor. Dunlop latex is produced around the world. With talalay you know you are getting a good product because you know it comes from one of three companies and they are all reputable "Name Brand " companies. Not necessarily true for dunlop since the capital costs to produce dunlop are a fraction of what they are for talalay. SleepEZ carries all three brands of talalay and they carry some natural dunlop latex. Shawn would be an excellent person to talk to about the differences between the different processes and brands because he's agnostic about which you buy so will tell you honestly what he perceives the differences to be. They sell mattresses as thin as two layers (one full core) and their prices will be competitive. If I could rewind to the beginning but keep my current knowledge, I would buy one of their 8500's as my "support mattress" under my Intelli-Gel topper, because that's almost exactly what I'm going to end up with - a 5.6" core plus 2" in toppers (the 8500 has a 1.4" top layer). Soft, Firm, Firm is what I'm going to end up with. If I had exchange privileges, I would swap my bottom layer for an X-Firm. I will end up spending a lot more than I would have if I had just bought a complete mattress in the first place - on the order of $1600 for what I could have bought for $1275. One more thing. Something to know about latex and ILD's is, they aren't necessarily consistent. Latex International measures every single core, and yet they can be 10% less firm than the nominal ILD. My ILD 40 core is a bit less than 38. I have an ILD 44 core that I swear is no more firm than my 40 (38). The variation will be even greater with dunlop, because there is more variation in the process and they don't test every core. Basically what I'm telling you is don't get too hung up on a difference of 4. A change in ILD of 4 is a bit like 3 dB, which is the smallest change in volume that can be readily perceived by the human ear. It's one step, and a rather small step at that. Just as you can have a 40 and a 44 that are actually the same firmness, you could potentially have a 40 and a 44 that are different by 8, because both 42 and 42 and 46 and 38 are plus or minus 2. The moral of this story is that even if you know what you want, you might not get it. I consider comfort exchanges very nearly a non-negotiable requirement unless your are REALLY cheap and not very discriminating. There are people who can "sleep on a bed of nails" and for them it might not matter. But if you don't have the option, and your mattress is too soft or two firm, you will be out buying more foam and any money you initially saved will be gone. [End Book] Edit: I bought my core from Jackie at Creative Ventures. She specializes in all-natural products, including natural dunlop latex, which she gets through Sleep Comp, a major distributer of latex. She was able to special order the Talalay core for me and have it cut to my specifications. It was drop-shipped directly from LI's fabrication facility to my door. Unfortunately she tells me LI will no longer drop ship, so at the very least you will now have to pay two shipping charges - one from LI to her and another from her to you. If you are looking for natural dunlop, or anything that Sleep Comp carries, give her a call. She created her business after looking for natural products for herself and not finding what she wanted. She is fun to talk to because she has gone through the same things we go through in shopping for a mattress or a topper or pillows or whatever. A really cool lady, and no bull. This message was modified Oct 20, 2007 by haysdb
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It's really very difficult to compare Talalay to Dunlop. Dunlop has a more solid feel to it. A firm Dunlop would probably be more like an extra firm Talalay. Somewhere on the old forum someone wrote that Talalay is like angel food cake and Dunlop is more like pound cake. The manufacturing process is very different. Firm Talalay has less air whipped into the mixture. With Dunlop firmness is determined by the size of the pin holes in the core. The larger they are the softer the latex. I don't know about Dunlop being denser on the bottom than on the top. My old mattress was double sided. I flipped it over every few months. It felt the same on both sides. I would be warry of any latex mattress that feels too soft. Particularly with Talalay. Soft Dunlop is more supportive and distributes your body weight more evenly. You won't find your hips sinking in after a few hours. However, I recommend lying on the bed for at least an hour before you decide to buy it. It takes about that long for your muscles to start feeling any strain, and it will only get worse the longer you lay there. Sometimes latex mattresses feel wonderful when you first lie down, but after a few hours that nice feeling goes away and you find yourself struggling to find enough support. This is especially true of soft Talalay. One other caveat. With Talalay --natural or blended-- you are assured of getting a high quality product if it comes from LI. Much of the natural Dunlop is Asian in origin, and the quality of the product is uncertain. So if you go with the Dunlop make sure you understand the warranty and the store you buy the mattress from is ready to stand behind it. |
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I have a block of dunlop latex from foamonline that's the same thickness as my Talatech. It's marked as Ex Firm ILD 44, so it is more firm than my LI talalay, but it feels pretty much the same to me, just more firm. Granted, laying on a full layer of it might feel different, but it's just not a night and day difference. I am reminded of the story of the three blind men and the elephant - one grabs the trunk, one touches a leg, and the other grabs the tail, and they spend the rest of their days arguing about what an elephant is. We each have different experiences with different products. This message was modified Oct 20, 2007 by haysdb
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I'm glad I asked because I was thinking the Dunlop was softer, so a x-firm Dunlop would be more like a firm or med Talalay. Hayes - Thanks for the info on Creative Ventures - this is one I have not come across before. She lists a Talalay Cal King core as $650. Is that not the one from LI? Or did she special order an LI one for you? After doing lots of research, I have this idea that the LI Talatech is the best, but I don't know why. If all 3 manufacturers of Talalay are good, is there any reason why you wanted the LI Talalay? Is SleepEZ talalay from LI? SleepEZ does indeed have a great deal on 2 layer (or 3 layer if you want to look at the core split in 2). I don't know why I passed them up before. Cloud - Yeah, the Dunlop I saw in the store said it was a "no flipper", which I interpreted as that being a typical benefit of latex in general. It may be made in China, as it is cheaper than the Talalay, and it's 100% natural, which I would guess should be more expensive, but no research done on that one. The qualities of Dunlop sound nice, the fact that the layering isn't necessary, which is what I experienced at the store (granted, just 30 min or so). But now I do worry about it disintegrating, or whatever, since I don't know the manufacturer. This place does have a long warranty on this mattress, but they're not known for the best customer service, as I've ready on epinions. They have a very nice showroom tho, and the sales people seemed genuine, tho a bit uneducated on some things. Now I don't know what to do. These are the options I'm considering now:
The whole set from the store I visited would be $2300 - too much. I could probably build my own cheaper, looking for a cheaper 3" topper and cheaper case. This case was organic cotton, wool and even had some muslin in it. And it was a terry or velour. It was so comfy! Can anyone recommend something similar? Doesn't have to be organic. |
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suz312 wrote: I'm glad I asked because I was thinking the Dunlop was softer, so a x-firm Dunlop would be more like a firm or med Talalay. Hays - Thanks for the info on Creative Ventures - this is one I have not come across before. She lists a Talalay Cal King core as $650. Is that not the one from LI? Or did she special order an LI one for you? After doing lots of research, I have this idea that the LI Talatech is the best, but I don't know why. If all 3 manufacturers of Talalay are good, is there any reason why you wanted the LI Talalay? Is SleepEZ talalay from LI? SleepEZ does indeed have a great deal on 2 layer (or 3 layer if you want to look at the core split in 2). I don't know why I passed them up before. Cloud - Yeah, the Dunlop I saw in the store said it was a "no flipper", which I interpreted as that being a typical benefit of latex in general. It may be made in China, as it is cheaper than the Talalay, and it's 100% natural, which I would guess should be more expensive, but no research done on that one. The qualities of Dunlop sound nice, the fact that the layering isn't necessary, which is what I experienced at the store (granted, just 30 min or so). But now I do worry about it disintegrating, or whatever, since I don't know the manufacturer. This place does have a long warranty on this mattress, but they're not known for the best customer service, as I've ready on epinions. They have a very nice showroom tho, and the sales people seemed genuine, tho a bit uneducated on some things. Now I don't know what to do. These are the options I'm considering now:
The whole set from the store I visited would be $2300 - too much. I could probably build my own cheaper, looking for a cheaper 3" topper and cheaper case. This case was organic cotton, wool and even had some muslin in it. And it was a terry or velour. It was so comfy! Can anyone recommend something similar? Doesn't have to be organic. I do not believe the prices on Creative Ventures website are current, and yet they might be since that would be (in all likelihood) Vita Talalay from Radium. But do not assume they are current prices. Jackie did special order my core for me. I personally wanted LI Talatech because I believed (and still do) that it is the best quality, and I took a liking to the company after reading their history. Their factory burned down in 2001 but they arose from the ashes to build a new state-of-the-art manufacturing facility. And they are an American company. I'm not positive whose latex SleepEZ is using. I think it's LI, but I can't swear to it and they don't specifically say on their website. Their prices seem awfully low for LI since I paid almost as much for a raw core as they charge for a core with a nice cover. I really do not recommend you build your own mattress unless you are wanting to do something that is just so unique that nobody can accommodate you. You are unlikely to save any money over FloBeds or SleepEZ for equivalent quality materials. |
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When I ordered my blended Talalay mattress from SleepEz I asked Shawn who the supplier was. He said LI. This was back in February. Things do change. Call him and ask. SleepEz sells a very nice product at a really great price. The only drawback is the one comfort exchange limit and the 15% restocking fee if it doesn't work out. On the blended vrs natural issue: On the one hand natural latex has a certain appeal-- it comes from trees. It's "real" foam rubber. On the other hand, like wine, natural latex has it's vintages. Sometimes it's a good year. Sometimes not. Talatech--LI's blended latex product, is said to be more consistent than natural latex since the synthetic component stablizes any impurities in the natural element. But LI has very exacting standards for its natural latex product and will stand behind it. As for natural Asian latex--who knows? If anyone knows a source for blended Dunlop latex made in the USA, I'd love to know about it. My old Dunlop was blended American made. I think 20 years is more than acceptable for a mattress to last. Even when it starts to disintegrate it's not like it just falls apart. You just start to notice "sand" under the mattress when you make the bed. But it never sagged. Now, as for those little sample pieces... All they're really good for is to give you some idea of how pretty the latex is and what it smells and feels like. Just squeezing it in your hand doesn't give you a realistic idea of what it will be like to actually lie on an actual core, or even how it will feel when it's layered over other cores of different ILDs. And Suz-- I'd think about buying a mattress from any merchant with an iffy customer service reputation very carefully. You may never need it, but if you do--and with latex that's a very real possibility--it's really good to know that it's there. |
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Point takes about sample pieces, but this is a pretty big chunk of latex, and I have a lot of other samples to compare it with, and I stand by my claim that the two are just not THAT much different in feel, they really aren't. But maybe this is a particularly good quality of dunlop, I don't know. I'm not saying all dunlop feels like all talalay or that there aren't any differences, but what I am starting to question is just HOW different they are. The natural dunlop "pushes back" just as hard as the talalay blend, i.e. the resilience of the two products is very similar. |
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FYI, mattresses.net sells Talalay from VitaFoam - they said it comes from the Netherlands and they're the largest latex manufacturer in the world. Here's my "thinking out loud" research....comments welcome! Cali King Talalay "core"
Best "set" alternative - sleepez 8500, $1275 + $75 shipping. With this I'm getting a core + 3" topper, but I'd have to buy another case anyway because I don't like the woven cases - I want a knit one. A few of those manufacturers need to be confirmed. Centralplastic.com is running the best LI "core" deal, however they only have medium density. Marie, their rep emailed me and said they've NEVER had a complaint about the medium density, and people rave about them. Does anyone have any thoughts about a "medium" Talatech core? I have it in my head that the core should be firm or x-firm (in typical ILDs). Do you think I'd really notice a difference? Mattresses.net is running the best Talalay "core" deal, $680 total. If I go with that, then I just need a 3" "split" topper, and a case. The topper will probably run about $400, and I need to shop further for a case. |
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Shawn at SleepEZ told me they were going to start offering stretch knit covers. In fact, I believe the last time I talked to him he said the first of them had arrived that day. That was maybe two weeks ago. The mattress case is a problem. If you find a good source for cases, I'd sure like to hear about it. It seems they are either $35 on eBay or $600 if you can sweet talk one of the component mattress companies into selling you one ala carte. When I get home tonight I will give you a list of every company I have come across where you might buy a mattress cover. There aren't many. One trick is searching for the right terms. A "mattress cover" is more commonly a mattress protector, mattress pad, or allergen cover. Some other terms I have searched for are mattress case, casement, encasement, and ticking. Here are a few on clearance from FoamSweetFoam. Very limited selection. These are "real" quilted covers but with foam quilted into the ticking, not wool or latex. |
| Hays, trust me. As someone who has slept on both Dunlop (sucessfully) and Talalay (not at all), there is a HUGE difference in the way the two foams behave. I wish you could find a store that offered both kinds of mattressess and just have a lie down just to see what I'm talking about. You would feel the difference immediately. |