Mattress Forum

I haven't owned a Simmons.  My parents have one in their guest room.  It's firm or ultra firm with little foam, and I know that it softened up lots from when it was new.   My parents Simmons also sags in the middle now, even with extra supports under it.

I've read lots of complaints that the Simmons goes too soft within 2-3 months.   Maybe yours still hasn't broken in.  I've read lots of complaints that the Simmons goes "too soft" within 2-3 months, compared to how it was new.

I have an Imperial Bedding Orthopedic Ultra Firm model #49 Bonnell innerspring mattress and spring foundation set.  Now, that set is rock hard firm in full size, and it also has little padding.  It's more firm than the currnet Simmons 800 or 850 coil (queen) ultra firm, even.   I put a 2" foam topper on that Imperial, and that relieves all pressure points for me, even if I sleep on my side.  My topper is old, like boufght 5-6b yearsago and never used, but it looks like what's called mamory foam now.

Personally, I plan to steer clear of all single sided mattresses and I will buy a traditional two sided by either Imperial (their #640)  or Original Mattress Factory  (Ortho Ultra Firm) and then stick my topper on it.

Sorry, I know that wasn't much help.

I would not call any memory foam cool, but some do breathe better than others.  The downside, in my opinion, is that you tend to get less support with more breathability.  So, I would try to limit to 1" on the cooler ones (mem-cool on overstock for example)  .  2" might work in the regular types of memory foam (Serta on overstock is pretty popular and cheap, but I have never tried).  Sensus is higher density (5lb), less breathable, and firmer and more supportive. 

I would not buy less than 4 lb. density. 

Latex is about equivaltent to or better than the cooler memory foams in terms of breathability, with better suppport options.  It is not as plush and body conforming (again my opinion) as a good memory foam, so that is a minor downside.  More expensive as well.  The softest is 14ILD from sleeplikeabear.  Beyond that you can get 19, 24.   I would not suggest firmer than that for most people.

Since you did not like the heat of the 3", but seemed comfortable, then soft latex might be the best option.

It also make a considerable difference if you use some wool (topper or mattress pad) over the foam.  That will be true with latex as well as memory foam.  All foams heat up, so you need something to absorb the body humidity.  That can make it feel a bit firmer though.   

What  did you put over the 3" memory foam?  What is your height and weight?

If you can return the whole thing, I would consider going with an all latex mattress.  It would probably last longer and could be customized to the right firmness.

Yes, I would definitely try again with the mattress pad over.  Any breathable barrier will help.  Ideally it will be able to absorb moisture as well (wool good, cotton okay, polyester not as good).   I use a wool topper + a wool filled mattress pad.  You may want to stick with your topper and add breathable layers on top for heat issues. 

Do you know any details about the topper.  Brand?  Density?

I doubt 1" will solve your problem, but if you go with too soft you may have a problem with not getting enough support in your hip  area.  That happened to me with even better (5lb Aerus) 2.5" foam than the mem-cool.  I don't know if I would say that the mem-cool will be significantly cooler (all foams heat up to a certain extent), but I have noticed a difference between that and the Sensus memory foam.  Unfortunately the more breathable memory foams dont' support as well (in my experience).  I suspect that you have one that is better for support but not breathable.

You are light enough that you might be able to get away with 2".  Ideally you could get 1" and fold it in half to see if 2" would work.  On a full size that can be a bit difficult to do. Then you could buy another inch. 

I think you should be considering atleast 1" of latex, and possibly 2-3"   There is nothing wrong witt layering 1" pieces as far as I can tell.  They don't slide around vs. each other.  Maybe a slight differnence in feel from one thicker piece.

So, maybe you would end up with something like 1" of mem-cool over 2" of latex (14-24 ILD depending on how firm you like).

The only way to solve is trial and error.  Make the best judgements possible, but no one really knows what works for them until they try it.  Try to buy returnable stuff if possible.

So, you have more back pain without the memory foam than with it?   Does it feel too firm with the memory foam or do you feel like your hips are sinking in too much?   You may want to try with just the memory foam and the mattress pad (no eggcrate) to see what that is like.  I would not go with more than 3" of the memory foam you have.  I am probably going to return the 2.5" of memory foam I have because it is too soft for my weight.  In part if may be due to the way the foam is made.  I am pretty sure I would not have a problem with 2.5" of Tempur-pedic foam.

So, I don't think I would buy anymore memory foam unless you plan to ditch the 3" you have.  I would buy latex before any more memory foam.

Sleeplikeabear has by far the best selection I have found for talalalay.  Almost every firmness and thickness made by Latex International (best quality in talalay).  They do cost a bit more, but they they also have a 30 return policy (you will lose some on shipping and handling).  Foambymail is not the same quality, and their soft if probably firmer than the 20 ILD they indicate.  Maybe because it is really dunlop latex. 

Rockymountain mattress has some good prices on dunlop toppers.  The softest of the 2 they sell might work.  I don't think they take returns on toppers.  Absolute comfort looks similiar to rockymountain, but more expensive.  Don't know their return policy.  Overstock has varying quality of their latex.  I think you won't know what your are getting until it arrives.

So, SLAB is the best if you want to know what you are getting in a talalay.  Rockymountain probably the best price for a quality dunlop.  Overstock is okay if you want cheap and on the firmer side (based on reviews it might be like a 25ILD).  That might be okay as something to add some softeness and support under your 3" of memory foam.  It probably would be too firm to replace the memory foam, based on what it seems like you are looking for.

Softer coils might help.  13 to 15 might be a big jump though.  Then there is some risk of it softening over time.  I would prefer you having softer coils than buying a plush version that just adds a bunch of cheap foam.  That definitely will not work over the long term.  The risk is that if it ends up too soft there is almost not way to fix it.  You might be able to add a firmer latex topper, but even that will sag into a too soft area.

So, you really have to decide which coils you are going to go with and then whether or not you think you want to keep using the 3" of memory foam.  That will then help decide where to go from here.

Have you tried the one with softer coils?  Does it seem to soft or too firm as a starting point?  Do you know how much foam is above the coils?
 

I have tried the bed with softer coils, and it's definitely more comfortable - my hips sink in nicely.  On the other hand it will cost me about $350 to exchange, which is not much less than 2" latex and 1" mem-cool, so if the latex/mem-cool is as comfortable, I think that would be better because the lower-guage wire is more likely to sag, plus the degree of sinkage with the soft coils that feels good in the store could prove to be too much over the course of an entire night. 

I still have another week to decide on the mattress exchange, so I think my working plan will be to order the mem-cool and latex and try that first.  While waiting for that to arrive, I'll continue to use the 3" MF topper.  I'll try it without the egg crate tonight.  The egg crate doesn't provide much cushioning, I was using it more to provide extra heat insulation.

Oh and one other question: the polyester fill pad I have is returnable, so I'm thinking of a wool pad.  But from your other posts, it doesn't seem like you found the wool to make much difference.  If I do get a wool pad, it seems like this is the way to go in terms of cost and availability: http://www.costco.com/Browse/Productgroup.aspx?Prodid=11535460&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&eCat=BC|90608|28683|492&N=4047337&Mo=28&pos=2&No=16&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=492&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C&ec=BC-EC14142-Cat28683&topnav=

I think wool can make a difference.  I would prefer wool instead of polyester fill for sure.  The Costco one is a good value.  My only concern is whether the waterproof membrane makes it sleep any hotter.  I don't think much of a difference.  At least you can return to Costco if you don't like it.

I think the mem-cool + latex should breath better than what you have.  That plus some wool on top might make it so that it does not get too hot.  I think you will still find it warm (which is good), but hopefully not hot.

What firmness latex are you thinking?  I would think either 14 or 19ILD since you seem to like it pretty soft.  14 would be the closest to memory foam, if that is what you are looking for.  19 has a bit more firmness and push back.  You could always do 1" of each to have more flexibility.

Sometimes it is good to have something intermediate firmness between a firm surface and a soft topper.  So, that would favor the 19, but you might need 1 more inch of something else eventually to make it soft enough.  Even 1" of 24 on the bottom might be good, but of course it is all expensive.

I doubt you will get the latex within a week.  You would have to call and check on availability.

What would be nice would be to try the wool mattress pad with the 3" memory foam and see if that is too hot.  If not too hot and still too firm, maybe you could add just 1" of latex to see if that solves the problem.

Which of the Sleepy's mattresses do you have?  Is there one with 14 gauge similiar to yours?
 

I have this mattress.  It looks like the wire guage is actually 14 and 3/4, not 13 as I thought, which makes me think that going plusher would be a bad idea.  Also I'm thinking that given the thinner wire, it may be more likely to break in a bit. 

Also, I've now slept for three nights with the 3" MF topper under the egg crate and the polyester 16 oz fill mattress pad, and I'm finding it quite comfortable.  Even with the MF under the other layers, it still gets quite warm, but the temperature is just barely tolerable.  So I'm now thinking that instead of the 1" mem-cool over 2" latex, I may just try 2 or 3" mem cool - this will be about half the price of the latex/mem-cool combo.  Then if that's too hot, maybe I'd get an additional 1" latex to layer on top of the mem-cool, not so much for added comfort but more to have a layer between the hot MF and my body.  Does that seem like a reasonable plan?  And do you think the latex would be an effective temperature buffer?  And finally, do you have thoughts about 2" versus 3" of mem-cool? 

Also, I'm wondering if the natura cover would provide as much temperature control as my current polyester pad.  I understand that wool is better than polyester, but on the other hand the natura has less than half the fill density (7 vs 16 oz). 

Thanks again for all your input, and hope you're having a great weekend!

I think you are probably better trying things over your memory foam (which you seem to like) than replacing it.  Although, I guess you said you could still return it?

I think you need a wool layer on top, maybe 2.  Like the wool topper or the wool filled mattress pad.

Latex will be more supportive and possibly cooler than the mem-cool, so I don't really like the idea of going with too much mem-cool.  2" at most, and for some people they would find that not supportive enough.  1" is probably better with some latex.  Most likely the mem-cool will not be as supportive as the memory foam you currently have.

As I have said all foams heat up, so you need something breathable over them.

Yes, I believe the Natura is 7 oz. per square yard, which is less than half the density of my current (returnable) polyester fill pad.  So I'm wondering if even though wool is "cooler", the Natura still won't insulate me from the heat from the MF as much as the much denser polyester.  On the other hand, maybe it's not a question of insulating me from the MF, maybe it comes down to dispersing my body heat BEFORE it reaches the MF?  Not really sure how this works.

And yes, I can return my current MF topper.  I've actually gotten rid of the egg crate that was over the topper, so now I'm sleeping with just the polyester pad on top of the MF. The MF feels much better without the egg crate over it - I'm now pretty happy with the comfort, and it's actually not really hotter than when I had the egg crate.  But it's still hotter than I'd like. 

So that's basically my objective at this point, to reduce temperature.  I could just go for 3" mem-cool, but as you point out, that's probably less dense than my current MF topper, so there may be support issues.  But support aside, I'm wondering: how much cooler will 1" mem-cool over 2" latex be versus just 3" mem-cool?  And again, how much better (or possibly worse) would a thiner wool pad be than a thicker polyester one?

Thanks!

Are you sure yours is 16oz per square yard?   That would be very thick for polyester.

Anyway, polyester really does not absorb moiusture, while wool does.  That is probably the main factor.   I think alot of the heat is really trapped humidity.  Breathable foams can help, but they don't absorb the humidty.   Based on the laws of physics, anything you are sleeping on will warm up towards your body temperature and get warm.  I am not sure if the different memory foam will totally solve that problem. 

My experience is that 3" of mem-cool  probably would not be supportive enough either, but everyone is different.  If you really want to try, I would suggest 1" and then (if you have a large bed) you might be able to fold in half to see what 2" is like. 

Also, the softer and more you sink in, the warmer it will be, because your skin has less area to breath.  Kind of like wearing long sleeves vs. short-sleeves.  That may be one of your issues.

So, I am inclined to add wool first.  You might consider the 1.5" wool topper from walmart.com as well. 

Also , what are you using for sheets, blankets, etc.  I use low thread count egyptian cotton sheets, and cotton blankets (unless fairly cold).   That has helped me as well.

These all are just my opinions.  Maybe someone cares to add some advice?

I just got a reply from the Therapedic and apparently the 3" MF I've been using is only 2.5 lbs!  I found this surprising, but I have nothing to compare it to.  Assuming this is correct, I think the 4 lb mem-cool would probably be supportive enough.  As I use the current topper more, I appreciate its comfort but am realizing it's not quite supportive enough, but it doesn't seem like it needs to be drastically more supportive.  So I think I'll start by trying 2" mem-cool. 

In terms of the cover, I actually don't know what the 16 oz refers to - I assumed it was per square yard but it doens't explicitly state that, so who knows?  So I think I will try a wool topper.  I'm leaning toward the Costco one, but I am a bit concerned that the fact that it's waterproof means it will be hotter.  Any thoughts on this?

2.5lbs is pretty low.  However, support is also a function of how it is made.  I believe the more open breathable ones provide less suppport than the more traditional types.  At least that has been my experience.  I have an older piece of 3.6lb density that seemed more supportive than the 5lb (breathable) Aerus.

Most seem to agree that lower density does not last as long.  So, yours may be okay for support now, but might lose in a few years.

I am not crazy about the waterproof aspect, but not sure if make a noticable difference.  All else equal, I would get one that was not waterproof.  You can also buy washable (non waterproof) Natura ones.

 

Or a few months in many cases at densities this low.

I am still a big believer that "support" in a real sense does not come from the memory foam layers no matter what type of memory foam is in the layer. This is why there are no pure memory foam mattresses on the market (to my knowledge). Having said that, I believe the denser memory foams will create a "sense of greater support" since they will often (depending on brand and specs) have a "firmer" feel feel to them when they are "unmelted" by body heat and pressure. You would tend to not sink in as far in a denser memory foam layer (again this would depend on brand) and this I believe can "translate" into a sense of greater support depending on the layers underneath. I believe that true support (the ability to keep your spine aligned through some form of pushback) comes from the layers under the memory foam. Someone would need to be really lucky to get correct support from a memory foam layer (correct spinal alignment at the depth the memory foam allows you to sink in) and even then it would probably only be correct in a particular sleeping position and for a limited time as each different position (or the length of time spent in one position) would change the characteristics of the memory foam (different heat/pressure distribution for each position or length of time).

The top layers of memory foam are more about comfort and pressure distribution and how easily they allow you to sink in/through to the supportive layers underneath. In other words, I believe that firmer memory foam comfort layers do not offer greater support but they do offer a firmer "feel" by not allowing a sleeper to sink in quite as far.

The thinner the memory foam layer and the closer to your body it is, the more easily you would go through it (again depending on brand and density) and the greater the influence of the layers underneath on the perceived feel of the memory foam itself.

Phoenix

I would say that memory foam provides some support, but not a lot.  No support to me would mean that you would sink in the full amount of the thickness of the foam.  I am fairly confident that is not the case.  I am pretty sure that if you slept on a 10" piece of memory foam, the maximum compression would not be 9.999".  Therefore, it is providing some level of support. 

However, it is possible that in some memory foams, when warmed up, you might sink in 80% or more in the heaviest areas.  It would be interesting to have a measure of how far you sink it sinks in at a higher temperature and after a certain amount of time.  A firm piece of latex would sink in considerably less than the 80%.

I also think there is some difference in the amount of support in different memory foams.  Although I have no way to measure it, I don't think I would sink in as far on a 3" piece of 5lb Senus as I would in a 3" piece of 5lb. Aerus.

I posted some of my thoughts/beliefs about this in a new thread.

Phoenix

I wouldn't get too hung up and say one thing provides support and something else doesn't.   It is a relative thing, and let's just agree that memory foam in low on the support scale.  However, for comfort and proper alignment, you do need your hips and shoulders to sink in more than the rest of your body (for most side sleepers at least).   So, some foam with low support can actually work.  In your own case, you seem to prefer and have less back problems with the memory foam than without it (if I have read your posts correctly).   Plenty of people are happy with Tempurpedic mattresses and memory foam toppers.

So, the real key is to find the right level of support and comfort.  Some do that will all latex, some do that with just memory foam, some do it with a combination (my case), some do it with other methods.   Ultimately, each one of us will have a different preference.

That is part is why I advocate use small increments of memory foam and latex, to be able to fine tune, and to be able find out what works for you.  Unfortunately there is no way around the trial and error.   Some people are lucky on their first try.  Some are very tolerant of almost any combination. 

I also advocate wool filled toppers and/or mattress pad to help with overheating.  That helps for many people, but there is no gurarantee it will work for you.