Wading through the latex info... (and avoiding a kit)
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Greetings.. I'm in the market for a new mattress and have been wading through all the thoughtful commentary on this board.. There's a lot of technical info within and a lot of folks with a far stronger need/desire to spend the time customizing and re-customizing their mattress for that perfect fit.. With that said, I'm wondering if anyone would take a moment to help answer a few basic questions: 1 - If possible, I'd prefer *not* to go the kit route. If I can walk into a store (in NYC) and buy a quality latex mattress, I'd be thrilled. I've seen the Serta (Vera Wang), Spring Free (Sealy) and Nature's Rest at Sleepy's. (I think I liked the Vera Wang best thus far). I know I can check out the Stearns & Foster and at least a few Englanders and Naturas locally. Given these options, does one brand/line stand out from the others in some meaningful way (e.g. quality of latex or other structural components, lack of PU, etc)? Does one brand/line provide a better standard configuration of latex cores? Or, should I just go with what feels best? 2 - I read somewhere that natural latex could possibly have more of an odor than synthetic. Is this a legitimate concern? 3 - (I posted this seperately too) - I've read it's best to get a firm mattress and put on a topper. Do toppers have a tendency to slide around since they are not sewn to the mattress? I've been told this is the case.. Any help appreciated! |
Re: Wading through the latex info... (and avoiding a kit)
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You've said why you don't want a component mattress, and yet you haven't. Chances are, if you aren't horribly picky, that you will get something you love on the first try. One advantage is you can do the firm core and a topper, but the topper will be inside the mattress case. I would rather not mess with a topper at all, but they are sort of a necessary evil because the alternative (pillow top) is even worse. Good questions about the latex mattresses in stores. I'm not sure anyone is going to really have that answer. Just try to educate yourself enough that you can ask intelligent enough questions that they can't risk lying to you too much. |
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In all honesty, the main reason I was hoping to avoid the component mattress is laziness (and the fear of putting the thing together; not to mention my girlfriend's fear of my putting it together!). I like the idea of the mattress coming assembled. I also like the ability to walk into a store and know -for the most part - what I'm signing up for.. (and my girlfriend, who thinks putting together your own bed is insane, want sto have a say in the decision too). From a cost perspective, I imagine could probably get a set from Sleepy's cheaper than from FloBeds as well. Most of the threads on this board dismiss these store-bought mattress without much explanation of why.. If the ability to continually tweak your bed is not a huge factor and neither are allergies or severe back pain/problems, I'm trying to figure out why I shouldn't just walk into a store.. That said, I've never had a latex mattress and I'm trying to avoid an expensive mistake by asking questions... Thanks for your response.. |
Re: Wading through the latex info... (and avoiding a kit)
| I read some absolutely horrible things about Sleepy's. As for walking into a store with readymade mattresses and "knowing what you're getting"....well, that's almost a joke. Unless you can physically open the mattress you want, you might be surprised it's not what you thought it was after taking it home and sleeping on it for awhile. Especially a pillowtop with a lot of foam. I think there's a tremendous advantage to customizing your layers as you see fit. And, honestly, after the plush mattress cover is zippered on, you can't tell the difference between that and a "readymade" mattress. Or do like I did and find a LOCAL shop who configures mattresses much the same way. He also gives customers the option to have a coil spring system in addition to the latex layers. That's what I have. Or he'll build you one in all latex. He also has a small selection of NON "S" brand mattresses to choose from. |
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Forgive us Blaupunk, but many of us here have been so "traumatized" by our mattress store experiences that we're looking for an alternative. There is a bias here toward knowing what's inside the ticking. Latex is good. Quality latex will maintain it's shape longer than any other bedding material. High Density or High Resilience polyurethane is next best. PU foam in the 2.2 to 2.6 lb range should prove to be very durable. On the order of 12 years or so vs. 7 for regular poly foam. Low density polyurethane foam is what pretty much everyone here is concerned about with the big name-brand mattresses. Such foam can lose a good portion of it's height and resilience within a couple of years. But there certainly are exceptions. I have a 13 year old S* mattress that still looks almost new. It's not a pillowtop, but probably the top-of-the-line non-pillowtop they carried at the time. It's a "two-sided" mattress, so right there I get twice the life out of it as I would a one-sided pillowtop. By the way, assembling a component mattress is no big deal. Lay out the casing, lay the foam inside one layer at a time (total of 3 or 4), zip the cover on, and baddabing, a mattress. This message was modified Sep 11, 2007 by haysdb
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Re: Wading through the latex info... (and avoiding a kit)
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1- Personally I don't think Serta/Sealy/Spring Air/S7F/Simmons are even in the same league as the 'green' brands. Anyway, I can't help there as I am biased towards any of the chemical-laden beds. As haysdb said, 'assembling' the bed is really easy and doesn't take long at all. The hardest part honestly is getting the latex out of the bag as they are really stuffed in there. I will say that I have not found natural talalay to be as supportive as I'd like. If you go with that, expect a very soft mattress no matter which firmness you choose. 2- Natural latex does have a very strong odor but it's not what you're thinking. I'm very sensitive to all sorts of chemical odors and this is not one of those smells. It smells like some sort of dessert - seriously. My wife and I love the smell of it and hope it never goes away. lol |
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I just want to say, mostly in response to haysdb, that I'm in no way suggesting that the ability to customize your mattress is unnecessary or a waste of time for many or that those that have gone that route wasted their time. I understand the need to get a good night sleep and I can empathize with those with allergies or back pain.. I just wasn't sure it was what I needed, and my girlfriend was fairly insistent that she be able to try the mattress before we bought it (although, she may be changing her tune). |
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blaupunk wrote: With respect to the odor (that D3Fi seems to enjoy :) someone told us that they had to return their mattress because "it smelled like cheese". I wouldn't hear the end of it if brought home a mattress that smelled like cheese! cheese lol someone's olfactory senses are defective. ;) I can't really put a finger on the smell but it definitely smells sweet. I guess to each his/her own though. The smell of flame-retardant chemicals for example obviously doesn't bother a lot of people (or bother them much) or else traditional innerspring mattresses wouldn't sell. To others like myself though, it's like sleeping in the gas chamber. By the way blaupunk, SleepEZ, Flobeds and The Natural Bed Store will all quite readily end you samples if you call them and ask. This way you can make sure your girlfriend doesn't hand you your head if the smell bothers her. It only takes about a week to receive them and you can specifically request natural, synethetic or both and probably in varying ILDs also. The Natural Bed Store's samples are only natural though and I believe they are 20 ILD. |
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Many of these brands get their latex from the same place, Latex International. Here's a link to their website that lists the mattress lines and pillows that use it, along with some other information which is really interesting. It does contain natural talalay latex, but not 100%. http://www.latexfoam.com/consumer/editable_files/consumer_find.htm We tried some Sealy Spring Free and the pillowtops were comfortable. The best prices I've found on this type of mattress are at Costco.com, the Stearns & Foster Kirkland Series, and Samsclub.com, who has a model by Serta with latex and memory foam called Grand Villa with a cashmere top. We live in a pretty small town, so don't have much to choose from locally and the prices are usually higher. We're looking for one that has memory foam with a latex core and a natural cover. Not in a kit, preferably a pillowtop. If it should smash down, and there is no saying it will, we'll put something else on top or remove it. I'm not adverse to 100% pure, but I don't mind a blend and I don't want to order something totally different than what I tried online or mess around with customizing. I didn't find any odor in the Sealys we laid on, either. We're used to sleeping on a waterbed with no pressure points and both are side sleepers with aches and pains. That's why the addition of memory or some other foam is appealing. Latex seems a little too hard for me without something else, but the support is good. If you want to compare some Sealys, Simmons and Vera Wang latex mattresses online, you can look at us-mattress.com's website. They have some interesting comfort and durability scales I found helpful, in general. This message was modified Sep 13, 2007 by obxgal
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Re: Wading through the latex info... (and avoiding a kit)
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We're also considering innersprings with latex and memory foam pillowtops. If you want to put on your own, you could try sewing velcro on a mattress cover and the back of your topper to keep them from slipping around. You'd have to have a cover on the topper, too. Overstock.com sells down and down alternative covers for foam toppers up to 4" thick that look comfy. This message was modified Sep 13, 2007 by obxgal
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Re: Wading through the latex info... (and avoiding a kit)
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obxgal wrote: Many of these brands get their latex from the same place, Latex International. Here's a link to their website that lists the mattress lines and pillows that use it, along with some other information which is really interesting. It does contain natural talalay latex, but not 100%. http://www.latexfoam.com/consumer/editable_files/consumer_find.htm We tried some Sealy Spring Free and the pillowtops were comfortable. The best prices I've found on this type of mattress are at Costco.com, the Stearns & Foster Kirkland Series, and Samsclub.com, who has a model by Serta with latex and memory foam called Grand Villa with a cashmere top. We live in a pretty small town, so don't have much to choose from locally and the prices are usually higher. We're looking for one that has memory foam with a latex core and a natural cover. Not in a kit, preferably a pillowtop. If it should smash down, and there is no saying it will, we'll put something else on top or remove it. I'm not adverse to 100% pure, but I don't mind a blend and I don't want to order something totally different than what I tried online or mess around with customizing. I didn't find any odor in the Sealys we laid on, either. We're used to sleeping on a waterbed with no pressure points and both are side sleepers with aches and pains. That's why the addition of memory or some other foam is appealing. Latex seems a little too hard for me without something else, but the support is good. If you want to compare some Sealys, Simmons and Vera Wang latex mattresses online, you can look at us-mattress.com's website. They have some interesting comfort and durability scales I found helpful, in general. LI has natural and blended, not just blended. Sealy is supplied by LI but it is not Talalay - it is Sapsa which doesn't feel even remotely the same. I'm not saying 1 is better than the other, just that they are a completely different feel. My wife comments that the Sealy 'smelled like a giant condom.' :x Support is not good with natural Talalay for most people, as I think as been established here. Of course I think that has a lot to do with one's weight and body type though as a smaller person would more easily be supported obviously. I don't believe any of the Vera Wangs or Simmons are completely latex at all, at least based on us-mattress' website and the comments of someone here who purchased one. They seem to all be stuffed with more of that darn cheap, low-quality PU foam. Again, to each his own, but comparing any of these to a 100% latex mattress is comparing apples and oranges. Everything says that the pillowtop will mash down if its PU foam. As you noted though, you're not bothered by that so np. :) This message was modified Sep 13, 2007 by D3Fi
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Re: Wading through the latex info... (and avoiding a kit)
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>>Everything says that the pillowtop will mash down if its PU foam. As you noted though, you're not bothered by that so np. :)<< Thanks for explaining the Sealy Foam. Pillowtops can be made of different things, including quilted latex and memory foam. I may not have to replace it and we haven't chosen, yet. Some of them felt fine to us so we're trying to shop around for the right one. We never tried Serta latex, just the memory foam. Comfortable. Can't say much else about it. (I just want add that I have foam cushions in furniture and pillows that have never broken down and some of it is15 years old and used every day extensively, including our sofa ( which we often sleep on) some chairs, a loveseat and pillows. I am sure it has to do with the quality of the foam manufacturers use and I know it can vary, as can the makeup of pillowtops on a mattress. We have to replace our sofa and loveseat, because the fabric is stained and the wood underneath fell apart on one, but not the cushions! Funny, isn't it? :) This message was modified Sep 14, 2007 by obxgal
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Re: Wading through the latex info... (and avoiding a kit)
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It was my understanding that the Vera Wang mattress is 100% latex. 8" Talalay Latex Core.. The pillowtop is some "Gel Fiber" thing, but I have no idea what that is.. Is this incorrect? We liked the plush Very Wang at Sleepy's a lot.. I wish I had access to a FloBed/SleepEZ bed to take a look at them.. The FloBeds say they come with a 2" topper.. Is this just an extra piece of latex? Does it come with a cover? How similar do these soft toppers mimic a pillowtop feeling? Are they even comparable? Thanks.. |
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blaupunk wrote: It was my understanding that the Vera Wang mattress is 100% latex. 8" Talalay Latex Core.. The pillowtop is some "Gel Fiber" thing, but I have no idea what that is.. Is this incorrect? We liked the plush Very Wang at Sleepy's a lot.. I wish I had access to a FloBed/SleepEZ bed to take a look at them.. The FloBeds say they come with a 2" topper.. Is this just an extra piece of latex? Does it come with a cover? How similar do these soft toppers mimic a pillowtop feeling? Are they even comparable? Thanks.. I'm not 100% sure about the Vera Wang's construction; I've never personally seen one. Not that I'm trying to sway you in any one direction but as you mentioned your girlfriend was sensitive to certain smells, note that any of those Sleepy's mattresses are going to stink for awhile due to the flame retardant chemicals. The 2" convoluted topper is useless imho. It is very, very soft (20 ILD) convoluted (eggcrate) latex. Yes, both come with covers that make them look just like a regular mattress. The convolute doesn't feel like a PU foam pillowtop at all. It feels like a melted marshmallow. Now however, if you like a really, really soft feel, the I guess you'd love the topper. I can post some pics of our Flobed if you would like. I meant to post them earlier with my initial review but I never did. |
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D3FI, I agree that the 2" convoluted Latex topper feels way too soft and I do not know how anyone can sleep on anything that soft. I had to return it. I still like a soft topper on top but so far I am thinking 1" over very firm (ILD 36) over super firm (ILD 44) is the way to go for my level of support an side sleeping cushioning needs. I am still wondering if a soft not convoluted 1.5" latex topper in 100% natural Talalay Latex over a 44 ILD would feel even better. I wish I would stop with my perfectionism of always having to have everything perfect. This message was modified Sep 15, 2007 by Lynn2006
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D3Fi wrote: The 2" convoluted topper is useless imho. It is very, very soft (20 ILD) convoluted (eggcrate) latex. Yes, both come with covers that make them look just like a regular mattress. The convolute doesn't feel like a PU foam pillowtop at all. It feels like a melted marshmallow. Now however, if you like a really, really soft feel, the I guess you'd love the topper. I can post some pics of our Flobed if you would like. I meant to post them earlier with my initial review but I never did. I was wondering about this. I've been trying to decide between Sleep-Ez and Flobeds. After a lot of reading, it seems like the Flobeds are, out of the box, softer because of the convoluted topper, even if you order a medium/firm/extra firm combo. I'm leaning towards Sleep-Ez, for purely cost reasons, but I'm a little worried that my choice of medium/firm/extra firm will be a little to firm for us. I really love the idea of a bed kit but I can understand people's hesitation because there is a lot to consider/ choice. |
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wildintheory wrote: I was wondering about this. I've been trying to decide between Sleep-Ez and Flobeds. After a lot of reading, it seems like the Flobeds are, out of the box, softer because of the convoluted topper, even if you order a medium/firm/extra firm combo. I'm leaning towards Sleep-Ez, for purely cost reasons, but I'm a little worried that my choice of medium/firm/extra firm will be a little to firm for us. I really love the idea of a bed kit but I can understand people's hesitation because there is a lot to consider/ choice. Initially I was going to go with SleepEZ also due to cost. I am so, so glad I didn't though as this was our first venture into latex and we are already on our 2nd core exchange and to be quite honest, we ar enot even sure we are going to keep it at all (it depends on how the Super Firm blended foray goes). Based on the research I have done on both companies, they are both reputable companies with mostly positive feedback from their customers. Each has 1 big benefit to call their own - SleepEZ's is price and Flobeds' is their exchange/return policy. However you do get 1 exchange with SleepEZ so you're not totally stuck if the 1st time doesn't work out. I'm not sure if that 1 exchange is 1 core or 1 exchange of unlimited cores ..? On the other point ... We initially got a Medium-Firm-Firm and it was very, very soft in our opinion. I am 6'1" and 170 lbs btw and I will avoid posting my wife's height/weight again because a man can only get away with these things once in a great while. ;-) As a comparison, before we arrived at latex we tried a Simmons World Class Plush-Firm (900 coils or so w/ a "Plush-Firm" Euro Top) and a Tempurpedic Rhapsody. At my height/weight (and the wife's) both of those supported us better than our initial latex configuration (read: no hammocking vs. severe hammocking w/ the latex config we initially selected). |
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I don't know if people should be comparing the "soft" of Flobeds to the "soft" of SleepEZ Really you should be talking in ILD ratings. Flobeds lists their ILD ratings on this page of their site: http://www.flobeds.com/mattspec.htm I can't find the same information at the SleepEZ site. From what I understand, Flobeds sources all of their latex from Latex International, while SleepEZ uses many different manufacturers: http://www.sleepez.com/suppliers.htm So just make sure you are comparing apples to apples when talking about firmness and stuff from site to site. |
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MequonJim wrote: I don't know if people should be comparing the "soft" of Flobeds to the "soft" of SleepEZ Really you should be talking in ILD ratings. Flobeds lists their ILD ratings on this page of their site: http://www.flobeds.com/mattspec.htm I can't find the same information at the SleepEZ site. From what I understand, Flobeds sources all of their latex from Latex International, while SleepEZ uses many different manufacturers: http://www.sleepez.com/suppliers.htm So just make sure you are comparing apples to apples when talking about firmness and stuff from site to site. You are so right. I did find the ILD rating for SleepEz but they don't correspond with Flobeds. Thanks for pointing that out. http://sleepez.com/latex-mattress-10000.htm |
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* deleted because I'm sick of all the errors for non-existent files on my web server * This message was modified Jan 18, 2010 by D3Fi
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Re: Wading through the latex info... (and avoiding a kit)
| Is the mattress casing what they refer to as their Euro Knit cotton and wool cover? I'm still trying to understand the difference in the covers, and when one would be preferred to the other. |
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Thanks so much for the photos.. Very helpful.. So, just so I understand.. The topper goes on top of the cores, but still in the mattress case, correct? For those people who have said they don't use the topper, does the mattress casing fit less snugly when you zipper it up? I'm trying to figure out if doing it this way feels differently than a pillowtop mattress that you'd find in a store.. |
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D3Fi wrote: On the other point ... We initially got a Medium-Firm-Firm and it was very, very soft in our opinion. I am 6'1" and 170 lbs btw and I will avoid posting my wife's height/weight again because a man can only get away with these things once in a great while. ;-) As a comparison, before we arrived at latex we tried a Simmons World Class Plush-Firm (900 coils or so w/ a "Plush-Firm" Euro Top) and a Tempurpedic Rhapsody. At my height/weight (and the wife's) both of those supported us better than our initial latex configuration (read: no hammocking vs. severe hammocking w/ the latex config we initially selected). If you had it to do over again, would you go with one of the other mattresses? |
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* deleted because I'm sick of all the errors for non-existent files on my web server * This message was modified Jan 18, 2010 by D3Fi
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Re: Wading through the latex info... (and avoiding a kit)
| I'm interested to hear how you will sleep on 8.4" of 44 ILD talatech. Are you planning to use the convulated topper over it? Otherwise I think it will be way too firm. |
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D3Fi, Count me among those who anxiously await how you like 44-44-44. That's extreme. I have 3 layers of 38 laying on the floor of my living room. I haven't actually tried sleeping on it yet, but the impression I get is that of my butt sinking in but the latex feeling extremely firm under my shoulders. My current innerspring, in contrast, seems to support my butt but let my shoulder blades sink in. Maybe it's just because that's what I'm used to that the innerspring feels more "supportive" and more comfortable? I'm thinking I need to do a zoned layer to firm up the hips and soften up the shoulders. Can you describe the stretch knit cover and give me your impression of it? How thick is the quilted layer? Does it strike you as being of good quality - something that will hold up for 20 years? |
Re: Wading through the latex info... (and avoiding a kit)
| We're very happy with a 44 40 36 talalay latex as the three support layers topped by 3" Sensus memory foam and quiltflex. After getting the 44 the bed has a more solid, firmer feel to it. There is less of a bottoming out feeling and a more supportive feel to it. Three 44s without a topper would seem to be very firm, but every one is different and the key is your individual comfort. |
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* deleted because I'm sick of all the errors for non-existent files on my web server * This message was modified Jan 18, 2010 by D3Fi
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D3Fi - Wading through the latex info... (and avoiding a kit)
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D3Fi, I really think you and your wife would be comfortable with a 1" latex topper over three 44 ILD latex cores since I am comfortable now and sure about my 1" latex topper over a 36 ILD over a 44 ILD over a 36 ILD. This seems to be very comfortable and firm to me. I know my 5'8" friend now feels it is too firm and she likes firm beds. My other friend feels it is as firm as his very firm spring bed now and he likes firm beds. My other friend can't imagine how anyone can sleep on a bed as firm as mine but I am so comfortable. I am lucky to have friends that care and try out my bed and give me their opinion on it. I really think you would like a 1" topper over the 44 ILD latex cores to have no pressure points with a tiny bit of cushion but I could be wrong. If Dave is able to find me a bigger 1" natural latex topper and you would like this also, then he can find two if you ask him now. If he can't find this, I will just stay with my Overstock Latex topper that I just wish was a little bigger. If the bed is still too soft, you can just put two 44 ILD latex cores over the slat box but I really feel that would be too firm and you would definitely then need the 1" topper. I now just want a lower profile soft latex pillow since my standard latex pillow from overstock is a tiny big firmer and thicker than I would like. |
Re: D3Fi - Wading through the latex info... (and avoiding a kit)
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* deleted because I'm sick of all the errors for non-existent files on my web server * This message was modified Jan 18, 2010 by D3Fi
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Re: Wading through the latex info... (and avoiding a kit)
| Wading Through, I am in the same situation as you. The shipping for SleepEZ and FloBed may be really expensive so my option is Sealy or Costco a bed from Costco. I went and looked at teh Sealy Spring free Meadow Crest but the sales lady could not tell me if it was all latex or what kind of latex the matress had in it. If I am going to spend 2700.00 on a bed I really think they should have the information. I was all set to order from SleepEZ but when I called they had to find out if they could actually ship to Alaska. If any one has any info about Sealy beds let me know I have had my spring bed for the last 10 years and it was a cheap 400 dollar bed and I DESERVE another bed. |
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Tammy99712 wrote: Wading Through, I am in the same situation as you. The shipping for SleepEZ and FloBed may be really expensive so my option is Sealy or Costco a bed from Costco. I went and looked at teh Sealy Spring free Meadow Crest but the sales lady could not tell me if it was all latex or what kind of latex the matress had in it. If I am going to spend 2700.00 on a bed I really think they should have the information. I was all set to order from SleepEZ but when I called they had to find out if they could actually ship to Alaska. If any one has any info about Sealy beds let me know I have had my spring bed for the last 10 years and it was a cheap 400 dollar bed and I DESERVE another bed.
Sealy uses Sapsa now which is a 100% synthetic latex which seems to come from LI. My biggest issue with Sealy and all of the other big-name store brands if the flame retardant chemicals (insecticides usually) they use. Secondly, many of the big-name latex mattresses contain a lot more than just latex (i.e. cheap PU foam). If neither of those issues bother you, then no harm in looking into them. :) |
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haysdb wrote: I was not aware there actually was such a thing as 100% synthetic latex. Well Sealy claims it is anyway. |
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Sapsa is a French bedding manufacturer that Sealy acquired in 2001. Sapsa is the number one producer of latex in Europe using a Dunlop process. They built a new plant near Wilkes Barre, PA to produce latex foam using this process and renamed it the Sapsa process. It is not 100% synthetic. Carpenter makes Qualatex which is an HR foam that is marketed as a 100% synthetic latex. Unfortunately the cost is almost as high as actual latex so it has not had great success in the bedding industry. |
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kbell wrote: Sapsa is a French bedding manufacturer that Sealy acquired in 2001. Sapsa is the number one producer of latex in Europe using a Dunlop process. They built a new plant near Wilkes Barre, PA to produce latex foam using this process and renamed it the Sapsa process. It is not 100% synthetic. Carpenter makes Qualatex which is an HR foam that is marketed as a 100% synthetic latex. Unfortunately the cost is almost as high as actual latex so it has not had great success in the bedding industry.
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Everything can be claimed to be an advantage. Our latex is 100% natural! Our latex is 100% synthetic! |
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D3Fi wrote: According to Sapsa, that is incorrect. They claim: "SAPSA Latex offers products in natural latex, synthetic latex, or mixtures of both." Once again, Sealy claims theirs is the 100% synthetic Sapsa latex. Quote from another site: "All the Sealy and S&F latex are 100% SAPSA synthetic latex. There is no natural latex used."
This information comes from the UK site. I am not aware of any synthetic products that are currently available. I could be wrong but I can't find any mention of these products other than this one obscure reference. Please let us know if you find something to the contrary. http://www.sapsalatex.com/uk/home.htm This message was modified Oct 4, 2007 by kbell
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