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I would like to know what some of the pros & cons are of sleeping on a latex mattress, especially in the kit form from a company like Flobeds (I have samples of the different latex cores from Flobeds). I understand that issues with comfort of latex depend on ILDs, a person's body type & weight, personal preferences, etc. The only type of mattress I've slept has been an innerspring (with no latex). It's hard to tell by laying on a latex mattress in a store what the mattress will feel like to actually sleep on. What is the difference in feel between sleeping on an all latex mattress and on an innerspring mattress? Does a latex mattress provide enough support for the lower back and hips, or is a latex mattress not a good choice for providing good back support? Does a latex mattress provide a good seating surface if you want to sit up in bed to read, or does your butt sink down too much for it to be comfortable enough to sit up in bed? With kits such as Flobeds that don't have a firmer edge support around the mattress to support sitting on, do you just sink in when you sit on the side of the bed? Can a latex mattress feel like you are sleeping on a piece of "dead" foam, "dead" meaning no cushiness, no springiness to the foam? Thank you very much for help and opinions. I've been reading this site (and old one) for over a year now, and I'm still learning. |
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centralpark wrote: I would like to know what some of the pros & cons are of sleeping on a latex mattress . . . It's hard to tell by laying on a latex mattress in a store what the mattress will feel like to actually sleep on. . . . I've been reading this site (and old one) for over a year now Based on your reserach, your query seems very illogical . . only YOU can determine if latex is suitable. Are you seeking someone to blame if latex does not work out for you, as compared to taking personal responsibility? This message was modified Feb 1, 2008 by sager66
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Most people on this forum who have had good experience with latex have a layered configuration: firm on the bottom softer on top. We bought a basic latex mattress (Englander) that was just a single medium density slab with some quilting and that did not work at all. It was not firm enough to be supportive nor soft enough to relieve pressure points. We ended up returning it. Our other issue with it, was that it did not provide a good surface for sitting up in bed — we found that we sank into it too much. I like to read in bed and we also watch movies from bed, and on the latex it was a back-breaking experience. But maybe someone else here who has a firmer latex configuration will have another opinion about this... |
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centralpark wrote: Can a latex mattress feel like you are sleeping on a piece of "dead" foam, "dead" meaning no cushiness, no springiness to the foam? You might want to do some more reading here and on some of the sites mentioned here. Some people find Talalay a bit too springy, some people like it and feel it is a better choice. Some people like Dunlop latex because it is a bit less springy than Talalay but it is still resiliant and cushy and supportive. People have problems with materials like polyurethane foam layered on top of the latex more than the latex itself. Some people seem to like firmer layers under softer or medium layers of latex. You don't mention what you are looking for or what you have now so it is hard for people to help you. I happen to prefer Dunlop latex and find it very comfy and supportive. We knew we did not want a spring mattress so we tried Talalay mattresses locally. My husband did not like the feeling of Talalay so we took a chance on ordering a Dunlop mattress over the internet - but we knew what we liked and what we didn't like and asked a lot of questions and did a lot of reading various sources. Good luck! |
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Pros of sleeping on a latex mattress: If the layers are adjusted properly, there is not much turning back and forth between both sides to get off the pressure points like I used to do on a conventional spring mattess. The ability to adjust the layers to get just the right comfort level. The ability to readjust the layers if one has an future injury rather than buy a new bed. Sleepign without allergies and waking up without allergies. Spring mattesses have coils soon sink in like my old super firm Posteupedic mattress that it became unusable. I think latex will last more years if covered. Another pro is if there is two people sleeping on the bed, one may like a very soft bed and the other may like a very firm bed or just a bed not as soft. With a flexible bed that can be unzipped with latex cores moved around that are split (mine are split from FloBeds on a split pine box spring over 10" legs to give extra height and to be able to put things under my bed) so each person can have the right comfort level for them. Negatives: Taking time to get the layers right but better than buying a conventional mattress that you have to live with for so many years that you find after a week or two that it is not that comfortable. OK now more details: If most of the bed is made up of very firm latex layers, it is comfortable for me to sit on the bed with a headboard and pillows to watch TV. It is comfortable to sit on the edge like I do to put my shoes on. The only problem is how time consuming it is for some people to move the latex layers around to get the right comfort level but to me it is so worth it than to live with a bed too firm or too soft that is not adjustable like I did for over 14.5 years. I dislike mattresses with springs since most are made of polyurethane and fire retardant chemicals that I have lately a chemical sensitivity to. Also I like a very firm bed but do not like coils digging into me. There are so many beds out there since each of us has different needs. I need firmness with a tiny bit of give and a small comfort layer on top that is not lumpy since I sleep on my side. I like latex pillows since I slept on them all my life. This past May 2007 is the first time I tried an all latex bed from FloBeds.com out of desperation being that I was allergic to a bed with polyurethane on top that was also way to lumpy an soft despite the name Simons Roosevelt Luxury Firm. Also bedding needs vary as one ages and after car accidents or other injuries. Before my car accident in August, I finally had my bed set up perfectly. Now after my car accident, I would like my bed to be a little firmer (so I moved the layers around) and have a tiny bit more cushion than the 1" topper I have on it but not be as firm as the 1.5" topper Dave sent me trying to help me that averages around a 24 ILD. Dave from FloBeds has been so accomodating to me and helpful and this is the third topper he has sent me trying to get me a perfect bed. He said he would give me more time now that I had a car accident and to me this is wonderful customer service. I love my bed but I am trying to make it perfect. :) I love my 1" topper but it is not going to last from Overstock since it has a few rips in it. All the queen toppers Dave sent me have been very sturdy and fit the mattress while the Overstock Topper is a little short and not wide enough but otherwise is comfortable. I am comfortable with the overstock topper but wanted a new topper that would last a long time along with my latex bed so if there is no 1.25" soft topper available, maybe I should just stay with what I have since it is comfortable. I want to sink down into the firmness and be very level with just a tiny bit of give but not much due to the 5 herniated disks that I now have from my car accident. After the car accident, I moved my layers around and I was so happy I could just unzip my organic cotton/wool cover and do this since I would have had problems if my bed was not adjustable. I am now sleeping on a 1" very soft latex topper from Overstock (bought it a few months before I decided to order my latex bed) over a 36 ILD over a 39 ILD (the 36 ILD averaged out to a 39 ILD so I moved that second.. it used to be on the other side of the bed) over a 44 ILD. I am thinking if I had a 1.25" softer latex topper (17 ILD maybe?) that I would like a 36 ILD over a 44 ILD over a 44 ILD but maybe I am wrong. My other side of the bed right now has the same 1" latex topper with a 36 ILD over a 44 ILD over a 36 ILD and I have been switching back and forth on different nights. I used to turn a lot but I do not move that much when I am sleeping now. I guess used to go from side to side to get off the pressure points. Since the car accident, on some nights I like my bed firmer and other nights I like it a little softer. I wish I had the 1" topper on my hips and a 1.25" very soft topper on my shoulders. II never knew I had this choice when I had a conventional bed and just lived with too many pressure points and turning so I guess I am way ahead of the game now and I just am aiming for perfection since I can. :) am not quite 100 lbs and not quite 5 feet so I would like some cushion for my pressure points that I never knew I could have a little cushion and still have support. I do love my bed and if I changed nothing else right now, I can easily live with the combination I have that is better than any spring mattress have slept on in the past. I wake up without allergies and no longer cough from post nasal drips when I am sleeping |
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There you go again, Sagar. What possesses you to be so MEAN to people? You tried that with me, too. This person is here asking LOGICAL questions and I don't feel it's your prerogative to chastise him or her. Why don't you take a chill pill? sager66 wrote: Based on your reserach, your query seems very illogical . . only YOU can determine if latex is suitable. Are you seeking someone to blame if latex does not work out for you, as compared to taking personal responsibility? |
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Hey Sager, lighten up! People join this forum to ask questions of those who have had experience with something they are considering. Mattresses are big investments these days. Centralpark just wants to hear the pros and cons to help make a decision. BeddyBye, I have noticed that some people on this forum really seem to have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed! I've had a couple of people tear into me for dissing Talalay and for liking memory foam. Geez! Centralpark, I'm going to try and be completely objective here with your latex question. I don't think it's possible to really get a comfortable Talalay mattress with a single core like the Englander Kim returned. Overall you will have a much better shot at getting comfortable on Talalay with a mattress kit. You have to build it up from a firm support layer to a softer comfort layer. And as Lynn pointed out this can take work to get it right, It can also take time and money to pack up foam layers and ship them back for exchange. Some people love Talalay and have never slept better. Other people can't sleep on it at all. This is something I feel strongly prospective buyers should be aware of. Talalay has properties that do not make it a good fit for many people with lower back issues. The Talalay process whips a lot of air into the foam and creates an extremely resilient material. At firmer ILDs this resilency can exert so much pressure against the body that although it doesn't register as pressure points like you would get on an innerspring mattress, it can make you sore all over. This is why you need a softer comfort layer on top. However, softer Talalay doesn't provide enough back support and some people find their back muscles tensing after a few hours in reaction to this. Another characteristic of soft Talalay is that despite the marketing angle that claims Talalay supports the body evenly, it doesn't. Your hips will sink much more deeply into soft Talalay than the rest of your body, throwing your spine out of alignment. This is where the middle layer becomes critical striking the balance between the soft comfort layer and the firm support layer, and it can be tricky finding the correct combination of ILDs to provide proper support and comfort. Talalay is very springy and has a jiggly feeling when you lay on it. Some people find this distracting. Unless your mattress is on the firm side overall, it won't provide a comfortable surface for sitting up and reading or watching TV either. Like Mattressmom I prefer Dunlop latex. Unlike Talalay that blends more air into the foam the softer it gets, all Dunlop latex is the same density. Softness is determined by the size of the pinholes in the mold. It is possible to get a supportive mattress at a softer ILD in a single core with Dunlop. I know because I slept on one for 20 years and Talalay was a huge (and painful) disappointment by comparison. Dunlop has all of Talalay's durability and none of its negative characteristics. It is a passive foam that does not exert pressure against the body. Although it does have spring to it (unlike memory foam) it isn't jiggly. It supports the body evenly and comfortably and takes no getting used to. I recommend looking into it. One other thing you might want to consider is a hybrid mattress. Some people just need the rigid support of an innerspring no matter how much they would like to sleep on an all foam mattress. Which is not to say you can't have the best of both worlds. A hybrid mattress has an innerspring support unit and has several thin layers of latex, HR foam or memory foam on top. The foam completely insulates the body from the pressure points associated with old fashioned innerspring mattresses, and the spring unit provides the back with the support structure it needs. Sometimes its not that you can't sleep on latex. It's just that you can't sleep on a mattress that's all latex. The best hybrids come with a zippered cover like a latex mattress kit so you can shift the layers around for customized comfort. BeddyBye has this kind of mattress and I'm jealous! The choices are out there, Explore them.
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sager66 wrote: Based on your reserach, your query seems very illogical . . only YOU can determine if latex is suitable. Are you seeking someone to blame if latex does not work out for you, as compared to taking personal responsibility? Thanks for coming to my defense, Beddybye & Cloud9...I appreciate it. What sager66 wrote is rediculous, and his comments don't foster an environment where people can feel free to ask for advice and information on this forum. I don't know how sager came up with the question about me seeking someone to blame if latex doesn't work out for me. Everyone, thank you so very much for providing in-depth answers to my questions. I have a much better understanding of the pros and cons of latex mattresses, and I know that your answers will help other people searching for answers about latex, too. I personally don't know anyone who sleeps on a latex mattress, so it's wonderful to have the knowledge and opinions of people like you who have slept on those types of mattresses. Thanks again! |
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"At firmer ILDs this resilency can exert so much pressure against the body that although it doesn't register as pressure points like you would get on an innerspring mattress, it can make you sore all over. " While this may be a good shortcut way to describe the effect of firm talalay, it's not really accurate. Gravity is constant. Period. Your weight is a force (F=MA). ANY surface you contact exerts a force equal and opposite to your weight. Here's my hunch: Its well known that the more conforming the surface, the more the force is spread out over a greater surface area. That's why waterbeds are so unbelievably comfortable to lie on (but not necessarily sleep on since insufficient support for heavier areas). Visco foam also conforming, but with its own set of problems. A nonconforming surface (floor) concentrates weight on the contact points. Same with firm mattresses. Softer mattresses use various foam layering to dissipate the force. Dunlop probably should be considered a more conforming foam, with the areas of greatest weight/pressure collapsing more easily, thus transferring some of the adjacent body load to the adjacent foam surface. Higher ILD (weight required to compress 9" plate 25%) talalay does not conform nearly as much, thus weight more concentrated. When you move, weight is re-concentrated in new area. And so on. Thus, if you lie perfectly still, all mattress surfaces will feel the same if weight is equivalently distributed. Layering from firm base to softer top counters this propensity of talalay by (as advertised) using a top comfort layer to conform/dissipate forces, and lower layers to further dissipate them, until reach base. Further (and this is just a hunch) a talalay layered mattress may simply be an attempt to create the feel which results from the settling during the dunlop manufacturing process. Dunlop generally doesn't use ILD. A dunlop mattress effectively may become progressively firmer as you go deeper in the bun--if you sliced one in 1" layers, the top layer might have something comparable to a 24 "ILD", while the bottom closer to a 36. Since it's a single-slab, the whole may be firmer than the sum of its parts (ILDs of its layers). In comparison, a talalay with a uniform ILD throughout would either be too soft for support, or too firm for comfort. This would also suggest that possibly one could build a talalay mattress which would feel identical to a dunlop mattress, by sandwiching and gluing layers of multiple ILDs. And this essentially is what the online kits are doing, though with thicker pieces for durability and simplicity, and not glued. Dunlop has its proponents, but what has always been considered a big advantage of talalay is consistency in product, since much more is under the control of the manufacturer, and more durability (though would disagree). However, a major advantage of talalay from the top manufacturers is warranty. It's much easier/cheaper to make dunlop so there are more players. Unless you know the manufacturer, or have past experience with its product, it may not be around a few years down the line when a problem surfaces. |
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"and more durability (though would disagree)." Correction: "and more durability (though some would disagree)." |
| Dave at FloBeds.com did send me a 1.5" Dunlap Topper and it was too firm for me and I did not like the feel at all. I prefer Talalay Latex so for. I can see that a bottom base of Dunalap latex may be good but my 44 ILD solves that problem. I have not tried layers of Dunlap latex under a a softer talalay topper so I can't comment there but the Dunlap latex topper exerted more pressure points for me and I just preferred my 1" soft Overstock Talalay Latex Topper that gave just a tiny bit of cushion. I still wish my bed was zoned but so far this is the best for me and each person is so different. |
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sager66 wrote: Based on your reserach, your query seems very illogical . . only YOU can determine if latex is suitable. Are you seeking someone to blame if latex does not work out for you, as compared to taking personal responsibility?<BR> Yes, I also thought that this comment was rude and uncalled for, but being relatively new to the forum I wondered if it was normal discourse. However checking the forum guidelines I read: "This is pretty much a mellow (think "good night's sleep feeling") forum about the best ways to shop for a mattress. A mattress. So, please refrain from being impolite in any way" So... be nice. This message was modified Feb 2, 2008 by kimmcgov
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Lynn2006 wrote: Dave at FloBeds.com did send me a 1.5" Dunlap Topper and it was too firm for me Lynne, what was the ILD of that Dunlop topper? Was it a blend, or 100% natural latex? |
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Glad to see the informative posts about latex. It's been really interesting to read the analysis of the differences between the kinds of latex. I think all the Talalay mattresses we tried locally were 5.6" cores with other "stuff" on top. We might have liked Talalay better if it had been layered properly. We love our 10 inch three layer Dunlop mattress but it feels very much like the six inch 32 ILD cores we got each of the kids. The Dunlop is definitely denser on the "bottom" than the "top". I wonder if the designation of 32 ILD is an average approximation of the feel of the whole core. The only negative we can see with the 6 or 7 inch mattresses is that modern sheets are too big for them. My impression is that it is fussier (can't think of a better word) to get the proper combination of comfort and support with Talalay but if you do it can be very good. OTH, Dunlop might have other down sides but is a little easier to get the right firmness. Our experience was that we could not find Dunlop as easily as Talalay - especially locally. It seemed that much of the information we found proclaimed the universal superiority of blended Talalay and a onlly few sources felt Dunlop was at least equal to Talalay. Maybe low quality Dunlop has given all Dunlop a bad name. |
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I think thisthread has already pretty much covered it, but I'll add my 2 cents into the mix anyway. Talalay latex in medium to firm densities just "pushed back" too much on my back. It did not feel at all relaxing to me. Although I have not SLEPT ON Dunlop latex, my impression from laying on it was that it does not push back this way - it's more of a "dead" foam, but with support, not like visco or memory foam which does not push back enough, and does not provide support - I don't care what Tempurpedic says. Also, visco or memory foam wears out fast and becomes softer, less supportive over a relativeily short period of time. Back to latex: It provides excellent support. The question is: will you like the type of support it gives? And will you like the "push back" of Talalay vs the less pushy feel of Dunlop? There is no way to answer this. You have to just try it, and really you cannot tell a lot from just laying on it in a store, you have to sleep on it. This is why a place like flo-beds is so good because for just the risk of shipping it back, you can try it out and see if you like it. And you have so many different combinations to be tried (for a little more investment in shipping - shipping the layers back to them and vice versa)... So unless you just hate latex, you should be able to find a combination that works for you. They are betting on this, and since they've been in business a long time, it's obvious that their bets on this are paying off. We were one of their bets that did not win. I just did not like the way Talalay felt as a main core. Had it been over springs, or had it been Dunlop instead of Talalay, we might have been able to make it work. I'm not sure - does Flo-beds offer Dunlop as part of their layering? If they did, I don't think they offered it to us years ago as we did not try it. We did try various combinations of firmnesses or ILD's, and some with a memory foam topper, but we just did not like the feel. What I have found recently, however, is that I can tolerate Talalay in a very soft, low ILD. In the very low ILD's it does not feel like it is pushing back so much, it feels more like sinking in, yet not like the sinking in of memory foam. The bottom line is that you just have to try it and for trying it, Flobeds is a very good company to try it with. Although it won't give you the true feeling of sleeping on a 100% latex mattress, you could try buying one of the 1" latex toppers from Brylane and see if you like how that feels. It will at least give you some idea. But of course a higher ILD that a core is made of feels much more bouncy and pushes back more than this topper will. (see the thread(s) on Brylane's topper deal.) Oh, and the other thing is, that as someone else said, you may like the feeling of latex over springs or over some type of adjustable slat frame, but not like it by itself on the floor or on a platform. We are now building our own mattress over old Sealy springs because I do not like the feel of foam by itself that much. If I were to buy a whole new latex bed, I think I'd want one over springs. (By the way, who sells a component style latex mattress over springs??) |
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Lynn, I just went to FloBeds and I can't find where they sell Dunlop at all. I would love to try a 1.5 inch Dunlop processed latex topper to give it a try. Does he have these on hand but just doesn't advertise them? I might have to contact him to ask. Lynn2006 wrote: Dave at FloBeds.com did send me a 1.5" Dunlap Topper and it was too firm for me and I did not like the feel at all. I prefer Talalay Latex so for. I can see that a bottom base of Dunalap latex may be good but my 44 ILD solves that problem. I have not tried layers of Dunlap latex under a a softer talalay topper so I can't comment there but the Dunlap latex topper exerted more pressure points for me and I just preferred my 1" soft Overstock Talalay Latex Topper that gave just a tiny bit of cushion. I still wish my bed was zoned but so far this is the best for me and each person is so different. |
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I noticed when I was buying my zippered coil and latex mattress, my mattress guy had a firm Dunlop latex mattress without any springs on display. It looked like a thick, firm core with softer layers glued on top. I wasn't paying a lot of attention since I wasn't interested in that type at the time. He said it was from Dunlopillo. Interesting website and history: http://www.dunlopillo.co.uk/ |
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Here's another website featuring Dunlopillo: http://www.dunloplatexfoam.com/ BeddyBye wrote: I noticed when I was buying my zippered coil and latex mattress, my mattress guy had a firm Dunlop latex mattress without any springs on display. It looked like a thick, firm core with softer layers glued on top. I wasn't paying a lot of attention since I wasn't interested in that type at the time. He said it was from Dunlopillo. Interesting website and history:<BR><BR>http://www.dunlopillo.co.uk/ |
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I noticed that this site talks about the Talalay process, though. <;---? My mattress guy uses Talatech talalay from Latex International for his layers he uses inside the custom mattresses. But, he said this other all-latex mattress came from this company, Dunlopillo. Now I'm confused. I assumed it meant that it was from the Dunlop process. I'll have to ask him next time I talk to him. ****************************************************** Here's another website featuring Dunlopillo: http://www.dunloplatexfoam.com/ This message was modified Feb 3, 2008 by BeddyBye
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| BeddyBye, I asked Dave to look for me and he did and sent it to me to replace the 2" convoluted topper my bed came with that was too soft for me. I would have loved the soft topper if it was thinner. You can always call Dave at FloBeds since he is amazing at finding things for customers. He aims to please. I am amazed he found me a 1.5" topper recently but it is a shame when he asked me what ILD I wanted, I did not realize I wanted very soft so he sent me a medium soft. He even sliced a pillow for me to make it more low profile. |
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mccldwll wrote: "At firmer ILDs this resilency can exert so much pressure against the body that although it doesn't register as pressure points like you would get on an innerspring mattress, it can make you sore all over. " While this may be a good shortcut way to describe the effect of firm talalay, it's not really accurate. Gravity is constant. Period. Your weight is a force (F=MA). ANY surface you contact exerts a force equal and opposite to your weight.
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"After sleeping on a firm Talalay mattress (32/38/44 ILD) for four days not only was I sore all over, I woke up feeling like someone had been sitting on my ribcage all night." It's the 32/38/44 build. 32 is not very conforming. And as I said, I don't disagree with the subjective description, but was only theorizing why it feels like that, and how it might be endrun. We now seem to have a near consensus on this forum that a properly reconstructed coil mattress can be a great sleep experience. It's how the coil system is "finished" which makes the difference. My point is that the same is true of a talalay mattress. The original post referred to latex mattresses. There have been many posts about dunlop v. talalay. I've seen Serta talalay mattresses advertised recently with 28 core w/ 32 racetrack (and through the subtleties of advertising, I'm sure core also means there are PU comfort layers over that). My point was that how a latex mattress feels depends entirely on how constructed (and for me, and some others with back/shoulder issues, standard layering talalay or uniform dunlop just won't work. BUT, zoning will, whether as a complete dunlop, talalay, or topper over coil). |
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BeddyBye wrote: I noticed that this site talks about the Talalay process, though. <;---? My mattress guy uses Talatech talalay from Latex International for his layers he uses inside the custom mattresses. But, he said this other all-latex mattress came from this company, Dunlopillo. Now I'm confused. I assumed it meant that it was from the Dunlop process. Yes, Dunlopillo's name is rather misleading. I asked Sean at SleepEZ when I was talking to him about a latex topper and he said that the Dunlopillo latex is Talalay. Confusing, no? |
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SleepEZ's supplier page does a nice job of listing the major suppliers of latex. Scroll to the bottom of the page for a chart. IIRC, SleepEZ gets their blended Talalay from LI and their natural Talalay from Dunlopillo. http://www.sleepez.com/suppliers.htm |
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"IIRC, SleepEZ gets their blended Talalay from LI and their natural Talalay from Dunlopillo." IIRC, SleepEZ doesn't say anywhere on its website specifically where foam from the named suppliers is used, and does not list an email address. In other words, nowhere can you determine in writing specifically where any given piece of latex ordered will be from. |
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Dave sounds like a great guy, Lynn. All about customer servoce! I'll give him a call, for sure. Lynn2006 wrote: BeddyBye, I asked Dave to look for me and he did and sent it to me to replace the 2" convoluted topper my bed came with that was too soft for me. I would have loved the soft topper if it was thinner. You can always call Dave at FloBeds since he is amazing at finding things for customers. He aims to please. I am amazed he found me a 1.5" topper recently but it is a shame when he asked me what ILD I wanted, I did not realize I wanted very soft so he sent me a medium soft. He even sliced a pillow for me to make it more low profile. |
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I honestly don't think I could just sleep on latex alone. Or any type of foam. When I laid on the all-latex mattress at my mattress shop, it just felt like it had no give. Or maybe it just needed a wee bit more bounce. That's the one with the thick core and laminated comfort layers. I'm thinking the core is Dunlop process. I just prefer the feel of a good coil system as my primary base. From there I prefer it to be firm, medium firm and "luxury firm" or a firmer plush. Not so hard that my hips feel pressure points. Just plush enough so I feel some "cush", but not so much that my back sinks in. Of course, isn't that what everyone is looking for? Not always easy finding that combination, though! I'm hoping that the firmer Talalay latex and one thin layer of HR PU foam will be the magic long term match for me. I'm curious about what Cloud9 said, though, re; Talalay pushing back. I'm still going to attempt to see what a 2" layer of Dunlop would feel like, though. Maybe take off the PU foam and put the Dunlop in its place and one inch of Talalay over that. The trouble with coils is I can only have about 3 inches MAX of foam or latex layers. So, I don't have much to play with. I still wouldn't trade my coils, though. mccldwll wrote: "After sleeping on a firm Talalay mattress (32/38/44 ILD) for four days not only was I sore all over, I woke up feeling like someone had been sitting on my ribcage all night."<BR><BR>It's the 32/38/44 build. 32 is not very conforming. And as I said, I don't disagree with the subjective description, but was only theorizing why it feels like that, and how it might be endrun. We now seem to have a near consensus on this forum that a properly reconstructed coil mattress can be a great sleep experience. It's how the coil system is "finished" which makes the difference. My point is that the same is true of a talalay mattress. The original post referred to latex mattresses. There have been many posts about dunlop v. talalay. I've seen Serta talalay mattresses advertised recently with 28 core w/ 32 racetrack (and through the subtleties of advertising, I'm sure core also means there are PU comfort layers over that). My point was that how a latex mattress feels depends entirely on how constructed (and for me, and some others with back/shoulder issues, standard layering talalay or uniform dunlop just won't work. BUT, zoning will, whether as a complete dunlop, talalay, or topper over coil). |
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Without looking at LI's site, I'm assuming that their blended Talalay is Talatech. That's what I believe my 1" layers are. Maybe the thick natural Talalay cores my mattress guy buys from Dunlopillo mimic Dunlop. It sure felt firn and "thud-like" when I laid on it. mattressmom wrote: SleepEZ's supplier page does a nice job of listing the major suppliers of latex. Scroll to the bottom of the page for a chart. IIRC, SleepEZ gets their blended Talalay from LI and their natural Talalay from Dunlopillo.<BR><BR>http://www.sleepez.com/suppliers.htm |
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mccldwll wrote: "After sleeping on a firm Talalay mattress (32/38/44 ILD) for four days not only was I sore all over, I woke up feeling like someone had been sitting on my ribcage all night." It's the 32/38/44 build. 32 is not very conforming. And as I said, I don't disagree with the subjective description, but was only theorizing why it feels like that, and how it might be endrun. We now seem to have a near consensus on this forum that a properly reconstructed coil mattress can be a great sleep experience. It's how the coil system is "finished" which makes the difference. My point is that the same is true of a talalay mattress. The original post referred to latex mattresses. There have been many posts about dunlop v. talalay. I've seen Serta talalay mattresses advertised recently with 28 core w/ 32 racetrack (and through the subtleties of advertising, I'm sure core also means there are PU comfort layers over that). My point was that how a latex mattress feels depends entirely on how constructed (and for me, and some others with back/shoulder issues, standard layering talalay or uniform dunlop just won't work. BUT, zoning will, whether as a complete dunlop, talalay, or topper over coil).
If you can sleep on anything configuring a Talalay mattress is easy. For the rest of us it's just way too much work and sometimes way too much pain. Mccldwll, even you have been trying to construct the perfect Talalay mattress for about a year now. And poor Lynn spent so much time getting hers just right and now that she's had a car accident she has to start tweaking it all over again. Like BeddyBye I don't think I can sleep on an all foam mattress any longer. My back just feels happier with a rigid innerspring support beneath it. I do like latex and memory foam, but I'm most comfortable with these materials layered in small, comfortable increments over the innerspring. Sometimes what we want and what we really need are not in a agreement. I really didn't want an innerspring mattress, but that's just what works the best for me. P.S. BeddyBye, Dunlopillo is a European latex manufacturerer. Europe's equivilent of L.I. But you're right, it is confusing! |
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BeddyBye wrote: I honestly don't think I could just sleep on latex alone. Or any type of foam. When I laid on the all-latex mattress at my mattress shop, it just felt like it had no give. Or maybe it just needed a wee bit more bounce. That's the one with the thick core and laminated comfort layers. I'm thinking the core is Dunlop process. I just prefer the feel of a good coil system as my primary base. From there I prefer it to be firm, medium firm and "luxury firm" or a firmer plush. Not so hard that my hips feel pressure points. Just plush enough so I feel some "cush", but not so much that my back sinks in. Of course, isn't that what everyone is looking for? Not always easy finding that combination, though! I'm hoping that the firmer Talalay latex and one thin layer of HR PU foam will be the magic long term match for me. I'm curious about what Cloud9 said, though, re; Talalay pushing back. I'm still going to attempt to see what a 2" layer of Dunlop would feel like, though. Maybe take off the PU foam and put the Dunlop in its place and one inch of Talalay over that. The trouble with coils is I can only have about 3 inches MAX of foam or latex layers. So, I don't have much to play with. I still wouldn't trade my coils, though. I'm kind of guessing that the Dunlop mattress I slept on was about 28 ILD. It definintely didn't thud! Although it was on a boxspring, and that will change the feeling. I'm not really sure why you would want to swap out the firm HR foam for the Dunlop. Firm HR foam has much more of a thud factor than latex. I think it provides a nice stablizing base over the springs for the bouncier materials on top. Remember, Dunlop is still rubber. It's bouncy. Just not jiggly. I'd be concerned that 2" of firm Dunlop would compromise the ridigity of the innerspring unit and you might be back to having too much foam on the mattress. I guess if you can return or exchange it for another ILD it would be okay. It might take a some experiementation. |
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" Mccldwll, even you have been trying to construct the perfect Talalay mattress for about a year now." Yes and no. Started a year ago but took 10 months off. Revisited recently due to neck/shoulder and back issues. Bought 3 Brylanes and the 36 ILD twin topper. I have nothing against dunlop (and even have a 35 yr. old twin mattress in cabin--originally modified for s sleep system in '70 FJ40 Land Cruiser, and subsequently used for toddlers bed) but ILD is so inconsistent, even throughout a single slab. Sellers really can't list an ILD with dunlop, and have to say "it's medium" or "it feels like 28 ILD latex." I don't think my experience would be any different with dunlop since it involves relative weight/displacement of hips vs. shoulders. So I need to zone. And since I haven't been able to find material locally, need to order. And that's where another dunlop problem arises for me. Shipping. It's heavy. Repacking a 3" twin size piece of talalay is rough enough. Try it with a relatively dense piece of dunlop which has been vacuum packed by the manufacturer. Some of these sites peddling dunlop with seemingly generous return policies obfuscate the fact that you have to repack it in original shipping materials, and return shipping costs are high (even where it seems to say that there is a minimal "return shipping fee", which often is a "handling fee"). One site stated if you lost the original boxes, they would sell you replacement boxes for $59. BOTTOM LINE: Enter all transactions fully informed. Whatever you buy, make sure everything is in writing. Read and reread the fine print and make sure you fully understand the terms and conditions. Ask your questions and get the responses IN WRITING. |
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I agree with all of the above. You are taking a chance with latex - Dunlop in particular - because it is so heavy to ship it back and forth. We were determined not to have to return layers so we tried very hard to get it right the first time. I wouldn't recommend ordering Dunlop unless you are very sure you know what you want and/or aren't extremely fussy and/or have special needs - unless you are willing to pay for shipping. I also think it takes some time to adjust to a new bed. I'm not terribly fussy and I don't have back problems but my husband does - it took him at least a night or two to adjust every time we reconfigured our Savvy Rest bed. Even his pillow position felt different with different mattress firmnesses. But we knew that we wanted to err in the direction of going too firm because we could soften it with toppers if we needed to. It is harder to correct if things are too soft. We knew that we could reconfigure the three firmnesses split into six pieces of latex until we got it right. We knew we didn't like the feel of spring coils or Talalay and what we read about Talalay. We knew that Dunlop sounded like what we were looking for. But it took a bit of a leap of faith and a willingness to work at it if we weren't completely happy. In a way, we got lucky that we happened to choose the right thing for us - but we had made a very informed "guess" based on lots of reading, talking to some of the mattress suppliers and thinking about our preferences and past experiences. We didn't just order the first bed we found. It took my mother almost 6 weeks to completely adjust to her new adjustable memory foam bed. Now she says she couldn't live without it. She has had back problems for years that are finally getting better. It took a while to get the bed recommended by her chiropractor to work for her but it did eventually. She also had to train herself not to flop over on her stomach - which was probably a big part of the problem. |
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cloud9 wrote: I'm kind of guessing that the Dunlop mattress I slept on was about 28 ILD. It definintely didn't thud! Although it was on a boxspring, and that will change the feeling. I'm not really sure why you would want to swap out the firm HR foam for the Dunlop. Firm HR foam has much more of a thud factor than latex. I think it provides a nice stablizing base over the springs for the bouncier materials on top. Remember, Dunlop is still rubber. It's bouncy. Just not jiggly. I'd be concerned that 2" of firm Dunlop would compromise the ridigity of the innerspring unit and you might be back to having too much foam on the mattress. I guess if you can return or exchange it for another ILD it would be okay. It might take a some experiementation. The local Verlo mattress guy told me that they don't recommend putting latex or memory foam on springs or a box spring. They sell rigid foundations specifically for foam mattresses. I didn't get into the reasons why - but I have my doubts about mixing and matching springs and latex. Just my 2 cents though. Dunlop is springy but it is a different springy than springs or Talalay. |
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He probably doesn't recommend it because it will last too long. Plus, he's a salesman and doesn't know what he's talking about. On epinions. Old, but..... Attached is a copy of a letter sent directly to the owner of Verlo, Dale Williams. He never answered or replied to the letter: Dale Williams VyMac Corporation W3130 State Road 59 Whitewater, WI 53190 Dear Mr. Williams, I am writing to express my dissatisfaction and discomfort with my Verlo Mattress. I purchased a Verlo Mattress approximately two years ago from the Round Lake Verlo Store in Round Lake, Illinois. During the two years I have owned my Verlo Mattress, I have expressed my concerns and complaints at the local store, regional franchise and the National customer service. Each complaint has been received, however, there has yet to be any improvement in my Verlo Mattress, nor has there been any follow-up to my complaints. I purchased the Verlo Mattress on a recommendation of my family. At the time of purchase, the sales agent recognized my family’s name and granted me a “free” bed frame, two pillows and a mattress pad. Later, when I phoned the local office to express my concerns about the discomfort of my Verlo Mattress, I was told in great detail that the salesman was wrong in allowing me all three items. Additionally, the local office told me my billing information did not indicate I was awarded all three items, namely the bed frame. I believe this information is important to express because the local office was distressed over this incident occurring and I spent a great deal of time explaining my Verlo Mattress rested upon a Verlo bed frame. The specific complaints about my Verlo Mattress are 1) the Mattress curves to the center and 2) the bed and the mattress is uncomfortable. I wake each morning feeling uncomfortable and stiff. I believe it is impossible for me to “wake on the wrong side of the bed”, because all sides of the bed are the “wrong side”. Awakening daily is accompanied with feelings of frustration from a constant discomfort of my Verlo Mattress. These specific complaints have been expressed several times to the local, regional and National Verlo representatives. During the first year, I complained about the discomfort approximately four times locally and regionally and my Verlo Mattress was returned to the warehouse two (possibly three) times to be corrected. During the second year, I complained to the National Customer Service and my Verlo Mattress was again returned to the warehouse, where I was told my fee for correcting the problem was waived. However, each time my Verlo Mattress has been “corrected”, the discomfort does not improve, nor is there any significant change in the mattress. In an effort to correct the problem myself, I have done the following things to try to improve the discomfort: 1) I flip my Verlo Mattress bi-montly 2) I have switched the Verlo box-spring with another box spring. 3) I had the Verlo technicians check to see if the bed frame was set up correctly (it was). 4) I have slept in different parts of the bed. 5) I have had other people sleep in the bed to check the level of discomfort (they have agreed my Verlo Mattress does not offer a restful sleep) 6) I have slept in several other beds and have found sleeping to be comfortable and restful. After all my research and evidence, I have found my Verlo Mattress is the sole reason for my restless nights and uncomfortable sleep. In my recent (National) complaint, I have requested a replacement. Additionally, I have indicated that I do mind a store model or discontinued model. However, I was told that was not possible. Currently, I do not have the funds to purchase another mattress. Therefore, I feel imprisoned on my Verlo Mattress until the time when I have saved the money to free me from my daily discomfort. Before I move to my final stage of complaint (which would be Consumer Advocacy, Better Business and Internet sites which allow Mattress reviews), I would be interested in hearing your thoughts concerning my dissatisfaction. If you are unable to respond or chose not to, please do not ask the Local, Regional or National Customer Service to speak for you. As I mentioned, I have spoken with those people and believe they have done what they believe they could do for me. Recommended: No Comments on this Review |
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BeddyBye wrote: ... Not so hard that my hips feel pressure points. Just plush enough so I feel some "cush", but not so much that my back sinks in. Of course, isn't that what everyone is looking for? Yes, perfect way to describe it. That's EXACTLY what I'm looking for: just enough cushion for the hip bones but no more. |
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Interesting Verlo comment. I hadn't seen it before. I'm glad we didn't get a mattress there. The people were nicer than the other places but we weren't that impressed. Sometimes I think we could have just gotten a mattress locally and not fooled around with the internet retail world - and then I remember what I didn't like about the local mattress choices.... |
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Good point, cloud9. Right now my mattress has been feeling pretty nice the last few nights. I'm going to leave it alone for awhile. I did order the Brylane latex topper last night, thanks to this forum! :) cloud9 wrote: I'm kind of guessing that the Dunlop mattress I slept on was about 28 ILD. It definintely didn't thud! Although it was on a boxspring, and that will change the feeling. I'm not really sure why you would want to swap out the firm HR foam for the Dunlop. Firm HR foam has much more of a thud factor than latex. I think it provides a nice stablizing base over the springs for the bouncier materials on top. Remember, Dunlop is still rubber. It's bouncy. Just not jiggly. I'd be concerned that 2" of firm Dunlop would compromise the ridigity of the innerspring unit and you might be back to having too much foam on the mattress. I guess if you can return or exchange it for another ILD it would be okay. It might take a some experiementation. |
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And, I find it the best of both worlds. :) mattressmom wrote: The local Verlo mattress guy told me that they don't recommend putting latex or memory foam on springs or a box spring. They sell rigid foundations specifically for foam mattresses. I didn't get into the reasons why - but I have my doubts about mixing and matching springs and latex. Just my 2 cents though.<BR><BR>Dunlop is springy but it is a different springy than springs or Talalay. |
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Great information about latex mattresses and latex vs. dunlop. Thanks, everyone, for sharing your impressions and personal experiences of sleeping on latex...I'm soaking all of the information in and definitely learning more. Of course, it would be impossible to know for sure if I'd find latex comfortable until I actually slept on it, but reading your experiences helps me get a better idea of what latex may feel like to a person. I don't think I would like the feeling of talalay latex pushing back on my body. I wonder if the soft convoluted topper from Flobeds that comes with their latex kit would eliminate the feeling of talalay latex pushing back...but I have read that some people find this soft topper to be too soft and useless. I have a sample of the Flobeds latex topper, but it's hard to know for sure whether or not it will be too soft for me until I can actually sleep on it on a Flobeds kit. I need enough support for my lower back/butt so that my spine is kept in proper alignment and so that my butt doesn't sink too far into the mattress. I cannot handle too firm of a mattress that creates pressure points and feels like it has no "give" to it. There has to be just the right amount of cushioning, not too much and not too little. So a mattress that keeps giving the proper support (with durable cushioning) year after year is a huge plus! If I were to buy a mattress with latex, it would have to be either a mattress with good 'ol coils with latex for the comfort layers or a latex kit (so that I have the option of choosing different ILD layers and moving them around inside the mattress to find the correct support). I have no experience sleeping on a latex mattress, so I'm thinking a combination of coils with latex would offer the best of both worlds. It would be even better if the coils and latex came in a zippered mattress casing so that if the latex wasn't comfortable, I could exchange it for a firmer or softer latex layer. Of course, I would love to get the mattress configuration right the first time and not end up having to make latex exchanges by mail...but at least Flobeds is good by allowing you time to do core exchanges or even return the whole kit. This message was modified Feb 5, 2008 by centralpark
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A very soft topper is what I need to take away the pushing against me feeling also. Hence, that is why I was looking for a 1.5" very soft latex topper. If I was not petite, the 2" topper may be better for me since I would sink in deeper and have the cushion with teh firmness underneath. Everyone is different. Some people prefer very firm toppers and others like very soft toppers. You need to find out what you like best by going to stores and lying on latex beds and finding out what their layers are made up of to give your best educated guess. You can always exchange layers or toppers but first try to find out what you like since we are all so different. I did so many exchanges to I know I did the right thing by going with FloBeds.com. I also did not want to pay a restocking fee if I did not keep the bed. But we are all different and you need to experiment in stores to have a better idea before ordering and also knowing if you like a very firm bed or a softer bed. I like Latex since there is some give versus a rock hard mattress like I used to sleep on having no give. A person's weight, height, back problems, and their comfort level of firmness levels are all part of the equation for comfort and support for that person.
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mccldwll wrote: And that's where another dunlop problem arises for me. Shipping. It's heavy. Repacking a 3" twin size piece of talalay is rough enough. Try it with a relatively dense piece of dunlop which has been vacuum packed by the manufacturer. Some of these sites peddling dunlop with seemingly generous return policies obfuscate the fact that you have to repack it in original shipping materials, and return shipping costs are high (even where it seems to say that there is a minimal "return shipping fee", which often is a "handling fee"). One site stated if you lost the original boxes, they would sell you replacement boxes for $59. BOTTOM LINE: Enter all transactions fully informed. Whatever you buy, make sure everything is in writing. Read and reread the fine print and make sure you fully understand the terms and conditions. Ask your questions and get the responses IN WRITING.
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| Packing up my split latex cores is not that much work since they are split and are only 2.8 to 3.0 each and I have a friend that helps me. I would never buy a latex bed without split cores seeing the convenience of making the bed so adjustable and seeing how heavy latex can be. |
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You mean like mine: http://www.baybed.com/ I wonder if there are other local stores around who are doing the same thing. I'll never buy another "readymade" mattress again, especially if it starts with an "S". centralpark wrote: If I were to buy a mattress with latex, it would have to be either a mattress with good 'ol coils with latex for the comfort layers or a latex kit (so that I have the option of choosing different ILD layers and moving them around inside the mattress to find the correct support). I have no experience sleeping on a latex mattress, so I'm thinking a combination of coils with latex would offer the best of both worlds. It would be even better if the coils and latex came in a zippered mattress casing so that if the latex wasn't comfortable, I could exchange it for a firmer or softer latex layer. Of course, I would love to get the mattress configuration right the first time and not end up having to make latex exchanges by mail...but at least Flobeds is good by allowing you time to do core exchanges or even return the whole kit. |
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Yep. Don't know about their prices, pocketed coil system vs. more basic coil style, and how much high density PU is used to encase the coils and to "quilt" the cover, but otherwise they sure seem to be doing things right. Clearly, that's how all traditional mattresses (above the most basic "el cheapo" level) should be made/offered--accessible guts and upgraded comfort layers. Just like Burger King, you could "have it your way." Even if you can afford the highest priced custom made mattress on the market, this really is how it should be constructed and modifiable. Anyone needing a good mattress who lives within a reasonable distance should at least consider them. IIRC, site says use 4 layers of decreasing ILD talalay over the coils. BB--what is their standard layup as far as thickness and ILD for these layers? Small mattress retailers should pay attention. Stop trying to compete with Costco, department store sales, and the various "Mattress Whatevers." Low inventory. Further, while I am completely unfamiliar with how the pocketed coil systems are constructed/assembled, it appears to be the type of system which could be modified so that the individual pocketed coils could simply be plugged onto a grid (think interlocking rubber kid's mat bred with large dimple LEGO base--end product 60" x 80" or 72" x 80"). Coils available in 3 or 4 firmnesses for zoning. End result--a coil mattress with latex comfort materials, all parts interchangeable/replaceable, shippable in standard size/weight boxes, light color coded parts assembled by consumer in place with instructions, and a bottle of wine. And it's "green." Someone please try making one of these. I'm too tied up with latex at the moment. |
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Found this looking for pocketed coils (cheap, but concept similar): http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/Adjust-A-Coil-Comfort-Twin-Mattress/2780622/product.html#moreinfo |
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I noticed that he said they use 4 layers of talalay over the coils. I'm wondering if this model is a bit higher than mine. I can't imagine the latex layers being thinner. Mine are 1" and I think that seems fairly standard for them to use this size for layering. I can get three 1" inch talalay layers in snugly. Or as I have now, a 3/4" HR PU layer as the base and two 1" talalay layers. I wouldn't mind if I could get 4 layers, though. It would give me more to play with. On the other hand, I might not need all that foam if I can achieve the comfort I want with just 3 layers and the coils. I agree that this concept is ideal. The "plugged pocketed coils" sounds like a neat idea, too. He doesn't advertise the LuraFlex coils I exchanged my pocketed coils for, I notice. Probably most people do fine with the pocketed. I'm just the Princess and the Pea. BR><BR><BR><BR> mccldwll wrote: Yep. Don't know about their prices, pocketed coil system vs. more basic coil style, and how much high density PU is used to encase the coils and to &quot;quilt&quot; the cover, but otherwise they sure seem to be doing things right. Clearly, that's how all traditional mattresses (above the most basic &quot;el cheapo&quot; level) should be made/offered--accessible guts and upgraded comfort layers. Just like Burger King, you could &quot;have it your way.&quot; Even if you can afford the highest priced custom made mattress on the market, this really is how it should be constructed and modifiable. Anyone needing a good mattress who lives within a reasonable distance should at least consider them. IIRC, site says use 4 layers of decreasing ILD talalay over the coils. BB--what is their standard layup as far as thickness and ILD for these layers?<BR><BR>Small mattress retailers should pay attention. Stop trying to compete with Costco, department store sales, and the various &quot;Mattress Whatevers.&quot; Low inventory. Further, while I am completely unfamiliar with how the pocketed coil systems are constructed/assembled, it appears to be the type of system which could be modified so that the individual pocketed coils could simply be plugged onto a grid (think interlocking rubber kid's mat bred with large dimple LEGO base--end product 60&quot; x 80&quot; or 72&quot; x 80&quot;). Coils available in 3 or 4 firmnesses for zoning. End result--a coil mattress with latex comfort materials, all parts interchangeable/replaceable, shippable in standard size/weight boxes, light color coded parts assembled by consumer in place with instructions, and a bottle of wine. And it's &quot;green.&quot; Someone please try making one of these. I'm too tied up with latex at the moment.<BR> <BR>This message was modified Feb 7, 2008 by BeddyBye
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BeddyBye wrote: You mean like mine: http://www.baybed.com/ I wonder if there are other local stores around who are doing the same thing. I'll never buy another "readymade" mattress again, especially if it starts with an "S". BeddyBye, I just checked out the www.baybed.com web site. I wish my local stores sold mattresses like the ones on baybed, with pocketed coils or just the regular coils with latex for the comfort layers. With a baybed mattress, do the pocketed coils give your back enough support? I had a Beautyrest with the individually pocketed coils, and my back suffered, but the mattress had soft PU foams for comfort layers. From what I see on baybed's site, it looks like their pocketed coil system is far superior to that of Beautyrest. Anyway, too bad I don't live anywhere near baybed's store or I'd check them out. I have been to several local mattress stores and tried out the latex beds, but all the latex beds I've seen and layed on are made by Sealy and Stearns & Foster, so they use PU foam on top of the latex core. That PU foam layer doesn't give me a 100% accurate idea of what a latex mattress with a softer layer of latex for the comfort layer feels like, but I guess the S-brand latex mattresses give me some clue as to whether or not I'd like to sleep on all latex. The stores didn't have all the S-brand latex models, but the ones I tried were either way too hard or a bit too soft because of all the soft PU foam layers...I didn't find the perfect mattress. Well, if / when I need a new mattress, I'm leaning more towards a mattress combining traditional springs (that's what I'm used to sleeping on) with layer(s) of latex foam and maybe even a layer of high density memory foam combined with the layer(s) of latex. |
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Probably for most people the pocketed coils were fine for support. Dan, my mattress guy just thought that maybe they were too conforming of a coil for me. So he felt the LuraFlex might be a better match. I think he was right. Although, I'll never know for sure. It could have just been my initial response to latex. Or a new mattress, period. Either way, I do feel like the LuraFlex coil is a bit firmer, hecnce more supportive. You sound like me leaning towards a coil/latex combination. I really do wish you could easily pop into Bay Bed and Mattress to check out the type of set-up I have. I think you would be pleased. centralpark wrote: BeddyBye, I just checked out the www.baybed.com web site. I wish my local stores sold mattresses like the ones on baybed, with pocketed coils or just the regular coils with latex for the comfort layers. With a baybed mattress, do the pocketed coils give your back enough support? I had a Beautyrest with the individually pocketed coils, and my back suffered, but the mattress had soft PU foams for comfort layers. From what I see on baybed's site, it looks like their pocketed coil system is far superior to that of Beautyrest. Anyway, too bad I don't live anywhere near baybed's store or I'd check them out.</p><p>I have been to several local mattress stores and tried out the latex beds, but all the latex beds I've seen and layed on are made by Sealy and Stearns & Foster, so they use PU foam on top of the latex core. That PU foam layer doesn't give me a 100% accurate idea of what a latex mattress with a softer layer of latex for the comfort layer feels like, but I guess the S-brand latex mattresses give me some clue as to whether or not I'd like to sleep on all latex. The stores didn't have all the S-brand latex models, but the ones I tried were either way too hard or a bit too soft because of all the soft PU foam layers...I didn't find the perfect mattress. </p><p>Well, if / when I need a new mattress, I'm leaning more towards a mattress combining traditional springs (that's what I'm used to sleeping on) with layer(s) of latex foam and maybe even a layer of high density memory foam combined with the layer(s) of latex. |
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BeddyBye wrote: I agree that this concept is ideal. The "plugged pocketed coils" sounds like a neat idea, too. He doesn't advertise the LuraFlex coils I exchanged my pocketed coils for, I notice. Probably most people do fine with the pocketed. I'm just the Princess and the Pea. Actually pocketed coils provide a conforming support similar to latex. If you have certain kinds of lumbar conditions or if Talalay gives you a backache, you probably need a more rigid support like the luraflex or the standard bonnel coils. So it's not just you. |
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mattressmom wrote: The local Verlo mattress guy told me that they don't recommend putting latex or memory foam on springs or a box spring. They sell rigid foundations specifically for foam mattresses. I didn't get into the reasons why - but I have my doubts about mixing and matching springs and latex. Just my 2 cents though. Sometimes stores don't recommend something because they don't offer it in their product line and want to discourage you from going somewhere else. Many manufacturers are now combining springs with quality foams like latex. What would really be nice is if they would combine them in a modular concept so you could swap layers out and fine tune the sleep surface. BeddyBye, I'm still jealous!This message was modified Feb 8, 2008 by cloud9
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| If you do some objective research, you'll probably find that while the pocketed coils are more conforming, they may not be the best for heavier sleepers or those who need firm support. They also will breakdown sooner than others. That's why an interchangeable pocket coil system would be so good. The adjust-a-coil bed linked above sounds interesting, but I'll bet the pocketed coil components are very low quality. |
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We have an Englander pocketed coil mattress. It is from their TensionEase line. We really like the support and also the lack of motion transfer. The coil gauge is heavier than the Simmons Beatyrest so ought to last longer. Also we are not heavy people (me: 125 lbs; him: 150 lbs). I have a feeling Centralpark, that it was the low quality foam on top that gave you problems, not the coils.... We got a firm-ish model and are looking for an inch or two of latex to get the perfect feel. This message was modified Feb 8, 2008 by kimmcgov
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| Better quality/heavier gauge coils certainly will help, but independent coils still will fail/weaken sooner since not sharing load nearly as much as interconnected system. That may even hold true for the foam on a pocket coil system since might have to stretch more, as well as compress (just a WAG). I'm not knocking pocket coils since there are advantages, especially for side sleepers, and those w/ restless bed mates since less motion transfer. Just pointing out a known trade off. |
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Fascinating discussion. I wish I had read more of the negative posts about latex here before getting my latex mattress. I am about at my wits end trying to get this thing to work for me. Its either too soft so I bottom out in the thing, or its too firm where I feel beat up in the morning or it feels like I am sleeping on a rubber ball. I think I would have been better to get a decent spring mattress (indiv coils etc) and just plopped a memory foam topper on it... |
| Again, Novahelp, I really think your problem is that you need a soft topper since you like softness but you need firm support underneath. I would find a soft less thick topper (to me 3" of softness of a latex core is too soft to sleep on) over firmer support. Imagine sleeping on a rock hard mattress with no cushion or sleeping on a matrress that is way too soft without firm support underneath. Both these combinations that are uncomfortable can happen with a regular mattress also. I actually love the zipped up cover from FloBeds and feel it has a little give and is comfortable for me. But I could not sleep with no topper at all or I will be moving my side to side like I used to do on my Extra Firm Posteurpedic Bed that has no cushion on it.. |
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Lynn2006 wrote: Again, Novahelp, I really think your problem is that you need a soft topper since you like softness but you need firm support underneath. I would find a soft less thick topper (to me 3" of softness of a latex core is too soft to sleep on) over firmer support. Imagine sleeping on a rock hard mattress with no cushion or sleeping on a matrress that is way too soft without firm support underneath. Both these combinations that are uncomfortable can happen with a regular mattress also. I actually love the zipped up cover from FloBeds and feel it has a little give and is comfortable for me. But I could not sleep with no topper at all or I will be moving my side to side like I used to do on my Extra Firm Posteurpedic Bed that has no cushion on it.. I think you are right. I will try again the Medium Firm X-firm and take an old memory foam topper and place it on that.. |
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I think you're right about that. The conforming combination of the latex AND the pocketed coils were just a bit too much. cloud9 wrote: Actually pocketed coils provide a conforming support similar to latex. If you have certain kinds of lumbar conditions or if Talalay gives you a backache, you probably need a more rigid support like the luraflex or the standard bonnel coils. So it's not just you. |
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novahelp wrote: Fascinating discussion. I wish I had read more of the negative posts about latex here before getting my latex mattress. I am about at my wits end trying to get this thing to work for me. Its either too soft so I bottom out in the thing, or its too firm where I feel beat up in the morning or it feels like I am sleeping on a rubber ball. I think I would have been better to get a decent spring mattress (indiv coils etc) and just plopped a memory foam topper on it... I could have written this myself--oh wait... I did. Many times! I had EXACTLY the same experience with Talalay latex and I never did manage to get it right. I don't know how long ago you got your mattress, but if you wander through the forum I wrote many negative posts about Talalay latex. Wish you'd seen them. In the end I returned the latex mattress, got an innerspring mattress and just plopped a memory foam topper on it. |
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novahelp wrote: I think you are right. I will try again the Medium Firm X-firm and take an old memory foam topper and place it on that..
The best combination I found was medium over soft with the x-firm on the bottom. (no firm) But even this wasn't comfortable enough to allow me to sleep for more than 2 hours before I woke up with my back feeling strained across the shoulders from lack of support. |
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cloud9 wrote: ..... before I woke up with my back feeling strained across the shoulders from lack of support. ?????? Back sleeper, w/ heavier central axis sinking in, and arms/shoulders floating? |
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This is what happened to me. Only I had put the doorskin plywood over my coils and made it VERY firm. Added the latex toppers and 2" 4 lbs. memory foam topper. My lower back got increasingly more sore each night until one morning I woke in excruciating pain that lasted for two full days. I mean I could barely move without experiencing a sharp pain. So that's when I decided to take off the doorskin and all the foam toppers. Tweaked the innards a little and now it feels better. Not perfect, but at least I'm not having that same lower back pain. My sacroiliac joint problem isn't related, although it definitely hurts every night. I can't blame the mattress for that, though. I decided to order the Brylane topper to see if it might be just enough cushion to add to my mattress to make it a wee bit softer on my hips and shoulders. If I start to experience any lower back discomfort, though, off it goes. I'm curious about that Geo-Matt HR foam topper used in hospitals. It might be more supportive than talalay, but providing just enough softness to take off the pressure. cloud9 wrote: Did you get your mattress from SleepEZ? I ordered this same combination because I like a firm bed. I thought I would add my 4lb 2" memory foam topper for a little cushiness on top. It was almost like the memory foam stopped working. The mattress still felt like concrete. But squishy concrete. All the memory foam seemed to do was hammock into the latex, so I woke up feeling sore all over and had a horrible backache besides. </p><p>The best combination I found was medium over soft with the x-firm on the bottom. (no firm) But even this wasn't comfortable enough to allow me to sleep for more than 2 hours before I woke up with my back feeling strained across the shoulders from lack of support. |
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Do you recommend putting the bed on the slatted base or should I get a flat piece of plywood? Wouldn't the base distribute the weight unevenly and deteriorate the foam? What do you use, and how often do you "clean" this type of bed? |
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emale wrote: Do you recommend putting the bed on the slatted base or should I get a flat piece of plywood? Wouldn't the base distribute the weight unevenly and deteriorate the foam?<BR><BR>What do you use, and how often do you "clean" this type of bed? There is a lot of information about this on the forum and on sites that sell latex mattresses. Most places recommend slats no more than 2 inches or so apart - so the latex can breathe. The type of slats used for a lot of futon couches would be too far apart for latex. You can buy solid foundations (like a box springs without the springs) or slatted platforms designed for latex or memory foam mattresses. We use a platform bed with 1x4's that are about an inch apart. If you use plywood, you would probably want to drill holes in it unless you live in a very dry environment. |
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novahelp wrote: Fascinating discussion. I wish I had read more of the negative posts about latex here before getting my latex mattress. I am about at my wits end trying to get this thing to work for me. Its either too soft so I bottom out in the thing, or its too firm where I feel beat up in the morning or it feels like I am sleeping on a rubber ball. I think I would have been better to get a decent spring mattress (indiv coils etc) and just plopped a memory foam topper on it... We, too, could not stand the feel of an all-latex mattress nor a latex with memory foam topper mattress. The Talalay always felt like it was pushing up against me, instead of providing soft support - yes even with the low ILD's on top.Some people obviously just do not like the feel of Talalay for support. From what I have heard - and what very little I have tried - Dunlop latex and the jungle natural latex does not have this push-back feel so much, and I am looking forward to trying it for my own self-built mattress, soon. Meanwhile, if I were you I would try Firm over Medium over Xtra firm - since you have it there you may as well try it. It may seem counter-intuitive but I think it can work for some people. Even flobeds recommended this to us when we were trying their latex mattress. You may need to go to a zoned system as I am doing, with a firmer section in the middle for your hips and a softer ILD up at the shoulders. Also, make sure you don't put more than 2" of memory foam on or your back will dip too much. I think 1 to 1-and-1/2" is enough memory foam for a topper. You may also want to try a super low ILD Dunlop topper or even Talalay - even I find the the low ILD Talalay doesn't push back like the medium Talalay does. |
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Well, i discovered that this Soft Medium X-firm is the winner so far!! I thought it was too firm so tried Soft Medium Firm And I got shoulder pains I had the last couple of years return. It turns out I need something firmer than my mind wants as my shoulder was healing the last couple of months and I just put it all together.... too soft is causing shoulder pains just as too hard does I guess?! :) Now if this keeps working, i need to talk to Sleepez about some sort of case for the layers that is not packed with that hard wool cushioning that irritates my hip... My god, the ordeal may actually be over soon!!! :D This message was modified Feb 13, 2008 by novahelp
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| Hi all -- I really appreciated this discussion since much of what has been described here is what I've been going through. I know all the positives of latex and invested in a high quality one (PLB Nature), but have struggling with trying to have it stay comfortable throughout a night and not wake up with soreness. I'm on the verge of giving up on the all latex bed idea. This thread is now quite old. If any of you that contributed to it are still around, please post some followup on your experiences since then. What did you end up with? Did you ever find a comfortable solution? Thanks. |
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Benefits of Memory Foam Mattresses Given the popularity and high owner reviews of memory foam, there’s clearly a lot to like. The most significant advantages focus on comfort and durability. Relief of Pressure Points One of the key things that distinguishes memory foam from other materials like regular poly foam, springs and fiber filling is how it responds to pressure. Memory foam was designed specifically for the purpose of absorbing pressure, which it accomplishes by molding to the shape of the person and distributing weight across its surface. Rather than actively resisting your body weight (and squishing soft tissues in the middle), memory foam accommodates curves, creating a sensation often described as weightless, or cloudlike. The more memory foam in a mattress and the denser the foam, the more pronounced the effect is. Back and Joint Support As body weight is evenly support across the surface of a memory foam mattress, it also works to support your body’s natural alignment. Other types of mattresses concentrate weight on the heaviest areas of the body, which can result in distorting the position of your hips, legs or shoulders relative to your spine. The regular foam layer that sits below the memory foam also plays a role in support, preventing you from sinking too far down. Limits Motion Transfer The ability to isolate motion can be a significant benefit for people who sleep with a partner or with a pet. On other types of mattresses, a person rolling over or getting out of bed on one side can disturb the other sleeper as springs bounce or water shifts, for example. Since the material absorbs pressure and does not conduct motion, however, this effect is virtually eliminated with a sturdy, well-supported memory foam mattress. Provides Good Longevity Mattresses prove one of the larger purchases for the average household, costing several hundred or even several thousand dollars. Given the cost, people in turn typically expect to get several years of a good sleep out of a new bed. While there is significant difference among brands within the categories, memory foam mattresses tend to outlast innerspring beds. They are significantly less likely to receive complaints of sagging in the first few years of use as well. Many manufacturers also say that memory foam beds do not need to be rotated as often as spring beds, and they do not need to be flipped. Another point is that several higher-quality memory foam brands offer strong warranties, around 10 years of full-replacement coverage. Some will even cover impressions as shallow as 0.75”, while most innerspring brands will cover sagging deeper than 1.5”. Large Price and Brand Selection Innerspring beds remain the most widely available mattress type, but among the specialty mattresses, memory foam is the most accessible. Most mattress showrooms will carry at least a brand or two of memory foam and many more can be found online and via larger retailers. Although some people think of memory foam as expensive, in today’s market there is little difference between it and the average innerspring price. Sleep Like The Dead estimates the average innerspring mattress buyer pays $1590 while the average memory foam buyer pays $1610, a difference of $20.Latex tends to come in a couple hundred dollars higher. There are several memory foam options spanning from ultra cheap and ultra luxury ranges, affording shoppers a strong range of choices to compare. Usually Fairly Easy to Compare Another benefit of visco mattresses is that once you learn the basics, they are actually fairly straightforward to shop for. Usually, comparing the type and density of memory foam, density of the core foam, and the warranty is enough to discern a good deal about a bed’s potential quality. There aren’t dozens of details about coils or a book of terms on latex that you need to master before feeling confident about picking a good mattress. And, many medium and small brands are fairly open and transparent about quality, meaning time researching. Potential Drawbacks The minority of memory foam owners who dislike their mattresses usually mention issues related to heat, odor, or durability. They Can Sleep Hot Heat is probably the most prominently mentioned con of foam mattresses. Depending on the brand and type of memory foam, usually about 5% to 15% of reviewers mention feeling like the sleep hotter on memory foam compared to conventional beds. For innerspring beds without memory foam layers, heat complaints are closer to 5%. Sleeping hot can be uncomfortable, as cool temperatures are associated with better sleep. Characteristics that make it more likely foam will trap heat include high-density foams, temperature-sensitive formulas (that use body heat to contour), closed-cell foams, and non-breathable mattress covers. Gel foams are often touted as the answer for this complaint, however Consumer Reports’ tests found little difference compared to non-gel materials. Temperature neutral, plant based memory foams did demonstrate faster heat dissipation than gel in one study by manufacturer Cargill. They Can Be a Little Smelly Odor is a shorter-term drawback that can be associated with any new mattress using polyurethane foams or adhesives. Strong chemical odors are described by about 10% to 15% of memory foam mattress owners, usually dissipating in a few days to a couple of weeks. Some people with strong sensitivities to odor complain of headaches or other issues. Other buyers are concerned about avoiding volatile organic compounds (VOCs) that can be released in the air by certain foams and adhesives. The EPA says finished poly foams are safe, and no studies have linked memory foam with long-term health issues. Looking for foams made with a proportion of natural ingredients, water-based adhesives, and low/no-VOC fire barriers can help minimize potential odor. Lower density foams are also less likely off gas, and some manufacturers suggest unpacking a new bed and letting it breathe for a few days to minimize smells. Lower Quality Foams Lack Longevity While memory foam as a category has above average lifespans, lower-quality, low-density foams can have fairly short life spans under five years. Typically, but not always, these types of beds tend to be cheaper and have shorter warranties. When comparing mattresses, this makes the density information important. Some Types Can Feel Cumbersome The other potential disadvantage for some people is that since memory foam is not a bouncy material, it can take more effort to move around on or get off of, and some complain about getting intimate. Temperature sensitive, dense memory foams take longer to recover to their original shape when you get up or move, meaning they are most likely to be associated with this complaint. To summarize, a memory foam mattress is best for: People experiencing joint or back pain People who toss and turn or experience pressure points People bothered by movement or noise People who want a wide range of options People who experience discomfort with spring beds, are concerned about latex allergies, or who prefer low maintenance beds People looking to get a long-lasting mattress for the money |
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@Sleep Your post is very informative about the pros and cons of memory foam mattresses, but is off topic here. This thread is about latex mattresses. |
| Old post here but in general latex just feels different than memory foam or a traditional innerspring mattress. It feels strange while you fall asleep for the first week then most don't notice it at all. |