Mattress Forum

Also, whatever is below the sofa cushions can act as a kind of box spring.  How firm is it below the cushions?  Does if have some give?  That will affect the firmness as well.

I think you should be able to achieve a desired firmness from latex layers.  What have you tried so far?

I have 3 firm and 3 X-firm layers from Flobeds which I've put together in every possible combination, with and without the convoluted top layer. X-firm over firm over firm, topped with the soft convoluted layer inside the cover, produced the best result for my wife, but not good enough since she still had back pain in the morning.  Softer combinations produce lower back pain, and firmer combinations produce mid back pain.  Latex feels "squishier" than furniture foam, so maybe that's got something to do with why the mattress doesn't work for her while the sofa does.

Post up your wife's stats (weight, height, age), what kind of sleeper she is (side, back, stomach),  back/spine related medical conditions, pillow usage on both bed and sofa, etc., and anything else that may be pertinent. . Maybe it can be deduced what is contributing to the pain.

Btw, what's your impression of the Flobeds mattress? I know you had demo'd many different mattresses and also held  reservations of the (quasi) DIY mattresses.

I have a pretty good opinion about Flobeds so far.  The zip cover seems to be very good quality, and the latex layers were well packaged and arrived in good shape. The only thing I don't really understand is how they put so much emphasis on customizing your bed with just the right combination of layers, but then they throw in that one-size-fits-all, 2-inch 14ILD convoluted top layer no matter what else you order. I'm wondering if that's the reason why we can't get the  mattress to work for us - that convoluted layer seems a little soft, and I wonder if a one-inch thick layer would have worked better for us.

Do you have the Flobed on an old box spring?  It should be on a fairly firm surface.

It is possible that a foam store would be able to try to match what your sofa cushion, if you bring one in.  All PU foam is not bad (seat cushions take a beating and they can last for a while)  Ideally you would want something high quality (usually around 3 lb. density).   S brands often use low quality PU.  A piece in my Sealy was 1.2 lb density.  Too light to provide support.  Any PU will probably not last as long as latex and will soften up a little after some use.

I would still try to work with Flobeds on a solution. 

The Flobed is currently on a slatted platform, but the next thing we plan to try is putting just two of the latex layers onto a box spring.  That might be the closest we can get to reproducing the feel of  the 6-inch sofa cushion on the spring base.

Also could it be your actual bed sagging or out of whack (frame, rather than mattress)?  [I'm beginning to think this latter problem could be part of MY sleeping issue!]

The bed frame is a slatted base and I don't see any sag to it. It's the kind of slats that go straight across to provide a flat surface, not the kind that bow upward in the middle like you see on some of the Ikea beds.

It is an interesting idea the back of the sofa may be helping her.  It is possible that she sleeps more upright on the sofa and slumps more on a mattress.   You may want to try to observe her sleeping positions on the sofa vs. the Flobed.  So, no mattresses in recent years have worked for her?

I'm kind of in the same boat as your wife. I find PU foam much more comfortable than latex. The  latex layers you have are pretty firm.....have you tried softer? Anyway, hope you find something that works.

She claims to like the hard-as-a-rock mattresses used by some Chinese families. They're like box springs, they're so hard. I don't even know where you'd get one, probably Chinatown. But I've slept on a couple of those with her on overnights at a Chinese friends' home and can't imagine they're a good long-term solution. It put my arm to sleep.

There was an innerspring matteress made by Quebec company Sommex that we slept on at a hotel that was very nice. The model was called Nuit Après Nuit (French for Night After Night).  As I recall it was a nice, supportive mattress with just the right amount of soft padding for us, and she woke up feeling great.  So it's not just floors and rock-hard mattresses that work for her.  The hotel was pretty new though, so it was likely a new mattress with fresh PU foam in it.  I believe the Sommex company has since been taken over by Spring Air in Canada, and I have no idea if they're making the same products the same way any more.

I get back pain if I sleep on a too soft mattress. If as a guest, I am offered a mattress that’s too soft, I’ll opt to sleep on a carpeted floor. For side sleeping, too soft causes back pain due to not providing enough support to align the spine…hips sag in and the spine curves excessively.

Too hard also creates back pain, and pressure points can form at the shoulders. When the broader shoulders are not sufficiently cushioned, they cannot sink in to allow the upper spine to straighten in relation to the hips…this forces the spine to curve from the lumbar region to the shoulder, throwing the spine out of alignment. I'm a male with broad shoulders; I imagine a female with broader hips would create a similar issue. 

Read through the Vzone material on Flobeds and also 'zoning' on this forum. Also, look how certain latex mattress makers have a multiple-zoned single slab of latex (a different approach to the same zoning issues, often with additional ‘pin cushion holes' creating a softer latex zone).

I returned my S&F mattress and I am now sleeping on a 6-year-old traditional Japanese cotton futon (thin!), which has little cushioning. I’ve had a bad back for years, including now a herniated disc. I’ve had an old injury of torn cartilage in my shoulders. My sleeping arrangements are currently makeshift until I decide on a new mattress solution.

In the interim, this week I’ve had to try to make this futon more comfortable…there’s just not enough cushioning for side sleeping.  I still use my IKEA platform bed with flat wood slats. Directly on top of the platform bed, I placed 4 thin closed cell camping/backpacking sleeping pads (maybe 1/2” thick each) ….a couple of them folded in half to get more cushioning under my torso (hips/shoulders). With this setup, my shoulders were still in pain from lack of cushioning; it was just too hard to sleep comfortably on. My back also hurt as it was thrown out of alignment by my shoulders.

So, on top of the sleeping pads, I placed two memory foam pillows laid side by side, also in the torso area. Above that, the thin Japanese cotton futon. Still too hard.

I added a polyester fill sleeping bag on top of everything as a sort of thin ‘topper’.  I am at the tipping point: it is just bearable, I get some pain but it is minimal. For now, I sleep on top of this crazy amalgam, on my side in a sort of quasi-fetus position, laying over top the area with the most cushioning. My shoulders get just barely enough cushioning to not become pressure points and to keep my spine fairly aligned. This pain can be eradicated with some more cushioning layers, but I’m out of padding. I have a couple old blankets and a comforter I will wash this evening and add to the ‘sleeping pile’ and that will likely take all the pain away (I may as well be sleeping on a pile of clothes or pile of rags, makeshift as my setup is now ).

Another poster ( Lynn?, I forgot her user name) had to go from Flobeds 2” topper to a thinner one due to her lightweight body. I’ll add this: collectively, I’ve easily spent a couple years sleeping on the ground outdoors camping. This gives you instant feedback on the padding layers you use, what works and what doesn’t.

ANyway, there IS a point to all of this. This sort of ‘exercise’ teaches one about alignment of the spine, how cushioning works, how support works, how comfort is gained incrementally, how much is too much and in the wrong places. Really, it is just about shifting things around until one gets comfortable, which is no different than doing so in a mattress showroom except the shifting around is done with mattresses. Or, alternatively, the Flobed type layer system.

 I think there are numerous ways to arrive at the same point, various sleeping systems, materials, and mattresses that will get you a similar final result. I've slept very comfortably outdoors, in a hotel, at home. Conversely, I've slept uncomfortably outdoors, in hotels, at home. 

Your wife is lightweight. You are right, the 2” soft topper may not work for her. If she sleeps on a hard-carpeted floor or hard sofa, this suggests to me she needs a firm lumbar support…she may just need a firm surface – PERIOD. However, starting from this premise, if she softens up her shoulder and hip area – minimally, without going too far in the other direction - just enough to provide some more comfort, relieve any pressure points, and fine tune spinal alignment - she may be golden. 

I would suggest empirical trial and error methodology.  For the moment, get rid of the 2” topper and work your way up the cushioning scale, starting with the firmest. Btw, another poster (Lynn? I forgot her user name) had to go from Flobeds 2” convoluted topper to a thinner one due to her lightweight body.  You may even want to try just TWO layers of latex (for your wife) to start. See how it goes.  Keep moving incrementally softer to adjust pressure points/spine alignment. You will then hopefully be in the general ballpark. Then you can tweak with either zoning to cushion and fine tune alignment of her hips/shoulders for her body weight, or perhaps add a thin topper, which may function similarly. The Flobeds Vzone or similar system might allow more precise and localized adjustments. 

PS: one of the most comfortable sleeping arrangements I EVER had was while camping: I scavenged a (new) piece of standard PU foam about 2.3”- 3” thick and folded in half to make a 5” –6” block of foam. I slept on top of it in a standard lightweight sleeping bag, for two months…blissfully. Better than the $900 S&F mattress I just returned.