Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
Why is mattress selection close to impossible for a anyone with low back pain? why are mattress makers using different names for the same mattresses in different stores? Why are they making it so hard to compare mattresses? Is this some kind of scam? Why is it that man has gone to moon but mattress makers can't make a mattress for people with low back pain? I have a herniated disk and wake up with aches and extremely tired every day. Life is hell or close to it. It can't get any worse. thanks for honest replies. This message was modified Jan 25, 2010 by lowbacpain
|
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
Welcome to the club. This has been going on for a very very long time. Greedy companies making garbage mattresses for profit and that is all. They stopped making good mattresses that were flippable a long time ago. Small companies still make them, but I am not really knowledgeable on those. I have bought so many mattresses that were garbage in the last 15 years or so. I kept my old firm mattress and put toppers on it. Got rid of the many newer ones each time. Good thing I kept the old one in a spare room. You need a firm mattress, but you need some support. That is why most all of us here have turn to adding latex topper for firm mattresses. Or some buy latex mattresses. Some are successful, some are not. It is a very fine line, and one inch to high or too low makes a difference. I am still working on the toppers to make my hips (side sleeper) and back (when I sleep on my back) happy. Right now I made the layers too soft, my lower back was so cramped I could hardly get out of bed. So I wil have to move the layers around and remove 1. When my back is happy my hips are not for side sleeping. Guess I will have to make my back happy only. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
I'm not sure what the answer is for your particular situation, but my low back pain was 100 percent CAUSED by my beds. One way to shop is to stay the night in different hotels with different beds to check to see how they affect your back. I had to be out of town on and off while my dad was ill and slept in different beds, different types, and none really made me feel better. Then I took a trip to Denver and slept at a wonderful hotel there...and the bed worked like magic on my back! I was 80 percent better the first night, and completely rehabbed after the next night! I WAS RIGHT IT WAS THE BED! No one had believed me before this, but I came home and refused to sleep on our bed one more night...ripped it apart with an exacto knife and changed the foam around. Never did make that one feel good...it is my step daughter's bed now. Had one made as close to the specs of the hotel bed as I could...springs on springs, offset coils, made the old fashioned way(small manufacturer...mine has cotton batting inside and minimal foam). I had to futz a bit with the comfort layer...the foam was a bit firmer than I liked so added a polyfill topper...and I sleep quite nicely now and revel every morning that I can stand up and put on my pants without falling over in pain! Ya know, the doctors tried to tell me it was age, or somesuch, but it was the darn bed. Best of luck, Kait |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
Hi, I got tired of springs popping up in my back in very expensive beds and just recently changed to Latex. I got an all natural Talalay latex bed by FloBeds. I highly recommend you take a look at their site. Their VZone lets you customize the support to how you need it for the different parts of the body. I put a firmer layer in my lumbar area to support my lower back pain. So, I feel for your pain and thought you should know that my husband has several herniated discs in his cervical spine with lots of other associated issues and has been going to physical therapy for the past two months to strengthen the area. Well, after about 10 days on his new bed...his physical therapist noticed a huge improvement in him without knowing he was sleeping on a new bed! He feels a lot better since and once he hit the newer VZone the other day, even better still (yet he thought his bed was perfect before that!). So much so that his therapist actually released him from therapy the other day! We also splurged and got him a zero-gravity Perfect Chair recliner (sold at Relax the Back store) because his neck needs support when he is sitting around..couches seem to encourage terrible posture and lack of support. The chair also really helps take the pressure off your spine. (We're doing all we can to keep him from what I call an "outage!" When these attacks come on, he is completely incapacitated and out of work for up to 6 weeks at a time.) Also, I have arthritic like symptoms and woke up every day in pain and exhausted after tossing and turning like a dead fish all night long. Both he and I feel like new humans now so I am a serious supporter of latex. Go read up on it and go read the thread "I just got a new FloBeds" started by eagle2. There is a wealth of info there that may help you, Good luck! TJ |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
DING DING DING DING!!! You've just asked the MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION! The answer is that the big mattress companies only care about making $$$, and so they churn out mattresses that feel good in the show room... then break down quickly... As to how to actually find - or build - a mattress that will help your lower back pain, The answer is here on this forum. Search on this forum for: flobeds sleepez overnightmattress and mattress surgery One of these methods/companies should help you. Good luck! |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
jimsocal wrote: DING DING DING DING!!! You've just asked the MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION! The answer is that the big mattress companies only care about making $$$, and so they churn out mattresses that feel good in the show room... then break down quickly... As to how to actually find - or build - a mattress that will help your lower back pain, The answer is here on this forum. Search on this forum for: flobeds sleepez overnightmattress and mattress surgery One of these methods/companies should help you. Good luck! Let me cut all the BS. Are you saying that Mattress makers are running a scam? So people get bad products and these mattresses break down quickly. And that that is why these mattress makers are duping customers when they sell same mattress with different brand names in diffferent stores so customers cannot do a thoughtful shopping? I think so. May be CONGRESS should step up to the plate and pass laws/rules forcing these scammers into not duping customers. Thanks. And God bless. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
| it is definitely the way the main stream brands operate. this is just one more reason why smaller companies have honesty built right in. When it comes to the "S" brands or any other manufacturer that works the same way (same beds, different names in different stores), there really is no such thing as an MSRP (Manufacturers suggested retail price) because there is absolutely no transparency. When you see one of these beds being listed @ 50% off 'market price' or 'suggested price' that is literally 50% off of their own completely fabricated number that they just assigned to the bed. It is a lot easier with certain brands to sift through all of this, so long as they use the same names everywhere. But hey, its capitalism...not really a lot you can do except to decide yourself NOT to purchase from these brands. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
| Budgy, would you say that the basic springs are okay in the S brands and the main problem is in the foam? Or are they now cutting corners in the springs as well? Do the interlaced springs (like Sealy uses) last longer than the pocketed coils? |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
Planned obsolescence, I would assume. The more often you replace your mattress, the higher the industry profits. It doesn't make sense for them to sell you a mattress that will eliminate you as a customer for the next 20 or 30 years; if they want to sell more mattresses they need you and everybody else to come back more often. So they reduce the longevity of their products. People with back pain are their most valuable customers. We're willing to pay more than most people to get some relief. All they need to do is sell us a mattress that feels good at first. We'll be back when we can no longer stand it. Linda |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
sandman wrote: Budgy, would you say that the basic springs are okay in the S brands and the main problem is in the foam? Or are they now cutting corners in the springs as well? Do the interlaced springs (like Sealy uses) last longer than the pocketed coils? I would be curious as to what Budgy or anyone else who has industry experience would say about this. I have used cheap Sealy springs and now cheap Englander springs and both seem to be pretty decent springs - I'm sure not anywhere near "great" springs but good enough, I think. My Sealy springs did seem to be breaking down after 4 years or so and I weigh 170-180 lb so that's not a long time. I'm not SURE they broke down but they seemed to be broken down so that's why I bought the Englander springs which are a little heavier gauge. I know one "custom" manufacturer I spoke with who uses only standard 14 (or was it 13?) gauge Bonnell springs, but I've heard it said it also depends on where the springs are made, how they're tempered etc. - info that - believe me! - will be next to impossible to get from any mattress store or even from the manufacturer! And my humble opinion - admittedly I'm not an expert - is that it is the PU foam that is the problem, most of the time, not the springs. I've always heard that S&F have good springs ... When I get more money to spend on it some day I want to do some research and try to buy some really excellent springs. So along with Sandman's question I will add this: Who makes really good springs nowadays (okay, I know Leggett and Platt make most of them, but I mean, which S co. sells good springs)? And: Is there ANY way to buy an unfinished mattress, with the enclosure and springs but no foam, no quilted top, etc.? I figured the answer was no, thus I bought a cheap Englander and did surgery immediately. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
Polyurethane foam is undoubtedly (from the consumer POV) the worst thing to be implemented in mattress construction in a long time. It is actually to the point that I now blatantly tell people that I have no problem selling them a pillowtop bed if they are okay with the prospect of replacing it every few years which is very likely possible. What I do try my best to do is offer people as many ways out of that cycle as I can. Usually this costs people more up front, but in the end they are usually much happier. Of all the warrantied mattresses I have seen (and the ones that should have been warrantied but were denied by manufacturers) I can count less than a handful of beds that actually had legitimate spring failures. The other ones that I have completely lost count of were undoubtedly caused by polyurethane foam breaking down prematurely (or right on schedule if you want my honest opinion). Leggett and Platt does produce a lot of springs for a lot of manufacturers, but we also have a lot of things being brought in from overseas these days. Some companies still produce their own in house, but not necessarily for all of their mattresses, just the more expensive ones. As far as tempering steel goes, its completely unnecessary if the coils are designed correctly and good quality steel is used in the first place. The main reason it is done today is because of the mass production itself. If a coil is made overseas or across the country from where the final mattress construction is done the coils are usually tempered. I can't really think of any built this way that are not tempered to be honest. It is because they vacuum pack the coils down to maybe 5% of their full height before they get put on a truck, train or boat before they get shipped to their factory destination. The tempering is done for shipping reasons, not as an end benefit to the customer. As far as if any cost cutting has happened with coils we are starting to see a little bit of that, one good example, Simmons pocket coils for the longest time were always wrapped in oversized cotton shells for its ability to breathe and also to allow the coils to move somewhat freely and do what they are intended to do. Very recently they made the switch to really stiff polyester shells just barely big enough to hold the coils, they can hardly move now without effecting the surrounding coils effectively making them behave almost like any interactive type coil joined by helical lacing wires. But in short, all of these things are minor compared to the copious amounts of foam used in most mattresses. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
budgy wrote: Polyurethane foam is undoubtedly (from the consumer POV) the worst thing to be implemented in mattress construction in a long time. It is actually to the point that I now blatantly tell people that I have no problem selling them a pillowtop bed if they are okay with the prospect of replacing it every few years which is very likely possible. What I do try my best to do is offer people as many ways out of that cycle as I can. Usually this costs people more up front, but in the end they are usually much happier. But in short, all of these things are minor compared to the copious amounts of foam used in most mattresses. Budgy, thanks for confirming what I thought to be true! I am surprised you even say: "I have no problem selling them a pillowtop bed if they are okay with the prospect of replacing it every few years which is very likely possible. " I say this because I personally know people and have read on this and other forums where people bought a pillow-top and had to IMMEDIATELY replace it due to lower back pain from the non-supportive foam. OR, they had to "eat" their purchase because the "copious amounts of foam" broke down in a month or two after they could not replace it or exchange it. My sister-in-law is one of those. One more question: Are the springs from, say, a 15-20 year old S company bed made better than the springs are made now ? And are they likely to still have good springs after that time? And aside from being flippable, what makes an older bed better? Is it that they used LESS foam or did they use something INSTEAD of foam, or ??? I have recently slept on 2 older mattresses - not sure how old - and both felt infinitely better than the Sealy and the Englander I bought within the last 5 years, both of which were basically terrible. In fact if it weren't so far away I would offer to buy my friend's mattress from his guest bedroom! I slept on it for 4 nights and woke up feeling fine each morning. I am going to ask him if he can find out the model etc. so I can try to get specs on it. Is there any way to get specs on an old mattress? |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
yeah, you know Jim, you are right. I can't even guarantee people really any time on a normal mattress. Unless they bought one with say less than 2" of PU foam I know that wouldn't break down too much and I don't really see any customer issues with this unless its too firm and then we sell people toppers at our cost to correct the comfort issue. I have had customers wear out thicker pillowtop mattresses within a span of months thankfully to get warrantied and then put them into different product altogether. These people are usually not upset with us because we do warn them that the beds won't last forever, and as long as you can look after them they will usually be happy because they know you told the truth from the beginning, and unlike the guy across the street I didn't tell them it will last 10 years as the warranty implies. But you would be surprised how many people still want to buy these types of beds even after being warned lol. Maybe I am not a very good salesperson because not everyone believes me haha. And yeah other then being flippable most beds back in the day either had very minimal PU foam or it was usually all just cotton batting and heavy damask grade fabric covers that tended to be very durable as well. Granted you can also debate that these types of mattresses were not the most comfortable either, but if you could buy something similar, add a latex topper or some other natural fibre topper you atleast wouldn't have to replace the mattress very often. EDIT: To answer your question the springs themselves, I honestly don't know if there has been any large changes in terms of the quality of steel used. But I do maintain my position that most coils do last pretty well these days. Will they be the same in 15~20 years, no, especially the lacing wires on interactive coils because they are made from thinner guage steel than the coils themselves. Thing is metal does fatigue, twisting bending, compressing, it all fatigues metal bit by bit over time. I know this from many different applications, even cars lose a great deal of structural rigidity over their life as the chassis absorbs energy from the suspension, it twists, and goes through various stresses that all weaken the structure of the car over time, coils are susceptible to the same basic type of wear and tear, but as far as how much...I can't say. If someone could actually test the spring rate of a coil when it was brand new and then test it after 20 years of simulated wear and tear than we would know exactly how much the metal has fatigued. This message was modified Jan 28, 2010 by budgy
|
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
Unless I missed it, you did not address one other question I asked: Which - if any - S company sells good springs nowadays? I realize most of these are made by L&P and I realize "best" depends on which type you like as well, but in general, are any of these big S companies selling springs that are any better than another? I bought Englander because at least their name doesn't begin with an "S"  , and they had some of the heaviest gauge steel I could find in a cheapo mattress.But for example, are S&F springs any better than Sealy? ( I know they're the same co. but I heard S&F springs were better...) Are Spring Air springs any better than Serta? etc.? |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
| out of any of those companies none of them stand out to me as clear winners however the worst of the lot IMO, Serta. There mattresses literally have nothing to them.. I know this sounds really unscientific, but as a general rule of thumb, good quality mattresses have some decent weight to them. It may not always be in direct proportion to quality but if a mattress is a feather weight its lacking something. Continuous coils used by Serta are very light weight, they might have high spring counts but they are low on the # of turns in the wire with an average or thinner than average steel. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
| Budgy and others, do you have thoughts on Shifman, basic level (e.g., the Shifman Chateau, which is a firm all-cotton innerspring with minimum padding)? I heard the original family sold the company several years ago and since then the quality has suffered, but haven't been able to verify. Am trying to decide between this and a horsehair innerspring. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
| To my knowledge there are no Shifman dealers in my area, so I honestly have never seen one in person (even at furniture shows). I just looked up that mattress @ bloomingdales website. Based on that price it sounds a little bit high for what it is. Looks to be a quality constructed set and their boxsprings sound highly functional, its more of an actual functional sleep system as opposed to just buying a mattress, this is generally something that tends to seperate this company from more standard brands. I think if you get a chance to lay on one in person and like the way it feels you probably won't have any quality issues persay, but I am a little worried about the battle tank offset coil they use. Probably perfect for a heavier person, but limited in how well it can conform to body shape compared to say a hand made pocket coil. Im not sure where you are located, but I think you may want to check and see if there are any Hastens dealers or Vi-Spring dealers near you...I believe their basic models should be priced around the same as the price I found on this Shifmans @ bloomingdales, but I do believe they will typically use higher quality upholstery materials and the spring systems are far more luxurious, you would also have with those brands the option of ordering your springs in the firmness level you desire. Happy hunting though, and let me know if you have any other questions or concerns too. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
budgy wrote: out of any of those companies none of them stand out to me as clear winners however the worst of the lot IMO, Serta. There mattresses literally have nothing to them.. I know this sounds really unscientific, but as a general rule of thumb, good quality mattresses have some decent weight to them. It may not always be in direct proportion to quality but if a mattress is a feather weight its lacking something. Continuous coils used by Serta are very light weight, they might have high spring counts but they are low on the # of turns in the wire with an average or thinner than average steel. Thanks Budgy. I came close to buying a Serta just because I had a limited budget and I figured "I'm just using the springs anyway" so was going to buy Serta. Luckily I remembered Englander and how I had once slept on one I really liked at a hotel so I bought that instead. So just to clarify, would you say that S&F springs are not substantially better than Sealy springs? I am just gathering info in case I have to replace my Englander springs at some point. Do you have any particular theory on what TYPE of springs are best for people of average weight or a little over average weight (like me)? I really am not very knowledgeable about the various types of springs out there and what makes one better or worse than another... |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
in theory a properly designed independent coil (pocket coil, marshall coil, any name you wanna use) is best for everyone. However because most of them are not made properly this doesn't always work out to be the case. And unlike Latex which you sometimes can actually buy based on specific firmness levels a spring you cannot. Because there are so many variables it is impossible to say one is better than another, much like how if we had a much heavier person we would probably recommend they start with a higher ILD rating than someone of lower body weight would typically use, you cannot do this with a spring system in the same way. With coils it is first of all impossible to compare apples to apples when we are comparing one design vs another. I will try my best to illustrate why its almost impossible to compare spring rates (durability) and contact area (pressure relief) especially when comparing one type versus another. Lets take a quick trip to fantasy land for a couple of examples. Let's make up a couple of scenarios here for coils and try to compare them, lets also say for the sake of comparison that there is literally NO upholstery material on any of these springs, and that they are all queen size mattresses: Scenario A: We have two coils, both of them are a classic bonnell coil, hourglass shaped spring (wider at the top and bottom than in the middle). Both of them are 15 cm tall and have 6 turns in each coil, both of them use helical lacing wires that run side to side across the surface of the mattress, both have a coil count of 608 in a queen size, one has a 14.50 gauge of wire and the other one is a 15.5 gauge of wire, both are made in the same factory and made from the same quality of steel. In this case we know that the only variable is the gauge of wire, which even though we don't know the actual spring rates we at least know the 14.5 gauge of wire will provide a higher spring rate and be slightly more durable. It would also in theory because you wouldn't sink into it as much, provide less contact area. You might make a recommendation on one coil over the other based on the sleepers weight. However if any one of these other variables changed, it would be much harder to objectively compare. Scenario B: Two coils, both 15 cm tall, 6 turns in the coil, coil count 608, 14.5 gauge of wire, same quality of steel. Now one of them is an open bonnell coil like the last scenario, hour glass shaped, and lacing wires running side to side. The other coil is an independent coil placed inside a cotton shell and hand tied in the middle to attach adjacent springs, no helical wires used, and a barrell shaped coil (slightly wider in the middle than it is on the top and bottom). In this case we don't even really know for sure which coil provides the highest spring rates overall. Reason being that helical lacing wires artificially raise the spring rates at the surface of the spring system, furthermore both springs use what is called 'progressive' rates, this is because the diameter of the coil is different at different compression levels. An hour glass shaped coil actually becomes progressively weaker as it becomes compressed because the middle portion of the springs is a smaller diameter. A barrell shaped pocket coil although weaker initially will become progressively stronger because of the wider diameter in the middle portion of the spring. So we don't even know which coil is more durable in this case, all we know is that you will probably get a lot better conformity from the independent spring which would help it shape into harder to reach areas like lower back and provide more contact with the body. As complicated as all this may sound, it is actually somewhat simplified. But lets just say it is very difficult to objectify what springs are better because it also depends on what your needs are, some people might place conformity of the coil higher up on the list than overall durability. This message was modified Jan 29, 2010 by budgy
|
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
Thanks for the explanation. I agree that pocket coils are great - in theory. But my experience with Simmons about 15 years ago was that after only a year or so they began to kill me. And that was BEFORE I had such a bad back. At that time I had only a mildly bad back.  I then read that what happened with Simmons coils at that time was that they would come loose from each other because they were tied very delicately and so the springs would migrate and thus, back pain. I heard they changed their way of tying them and are better now, but that does not jibe with the tons of negative reviews you can find on the net re Simmons. As I understand it my Englander has Bonnell coils of 12.5 gauge tempered steel but honestly I never got a definitive answer on that so I don't really know. One store said "I think they're Bonnell" and another store said "I don't know". One store said "They have x # of coils in the Queen" and another said "they have y # of coils in the Queen" and none could tell me how many in the Twin which I was buying! This is the main problem with mattress buying: they won't tell people what they are made of. The dealers even claim they don't know and it is difficult for them to find out! The mattress store guy who was on here for awhile made the assertion that most people don't really want to know anyway, and the facts would only confuse them! Ha! I do agree that not everyone would know what the specs meant. But still, I think we should have the right to know and what would it hurt to just have a print out available - at least if asked for! - that showed how much foam, what kind of foam, what kind of springs, how many springs, etc... Actually I think it should be required to be put right on the label or at least on a paper that comes with each mattress. Sorry, sometimes I go into rant mode on the subject of mattress stores! |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
Im sure it would be really confusing and people would probably run out the doors if I just told them what the specs were on a mattress. like someone lays down on a bed and says 'this feels good what's in it?" 1218 independent pocket coils, 15.5 gauge of wire, 12cm tall, 7 turns in the coil, foam encased, 2" foam underneath the coils, 2" "firm foam", 2 1" layers of soft foam, half inch latex, half inch memory foam, 2" super soft convoluted foam, 33oz hollo fibre! But what people should be made aware of...at some point. 1. Coil mattresses (from normal brands) are quilted with various layers of polyurethane foam. 2. Polyurethane foam breaks down. 3. The more polyurethane foam you have the more serious your permanent body indentations will be and the sooner they show up. 4. A half inch of memory foam or latex does nothing to prevent the other 6" of poly foam in the pillow top from breaking down. From here, I can show people alternatives. I myself am not a specs guy, I know the specs very well, and actually so well to the point that I realize the important specs are never provided by a manufacturer which is how long will the mattress last, how well will it breathe, will it conform to the body and relieve pressure, will it be firm enough to keep your heavier regions from sinking too much? These are things that a spec sheet alone cannot tell you. When it does come down to buying a coil mattress which quite frankly is the most confusing type of mattress to buy, you should buy the TYPE of coil that works best with your body, you shouldn't buy the coil count or the gauge of wire. This message was modified Jan 30, 2010 by budgy
|
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
cityskies wrote: Budgy and others, do you have thoughts on Shifman, basic level (e.g., the Shifman Chateau, which is a firm all-cotton innerspring with minimum padding)? I heard the original family sold the company several years ago and since then the quality has suffered, but haven't been able to verify. Am trying to decide between this and a horsehair innerspring. Just thought I would give you another reply on this one....I think if you want to get a really good quality American made mattress and mostly filled with cotton batting. You really ought to check out a brand called Royal-Pedic. http://www.royal-pedic.com/ One of their reps actually made a visit to my store to see if we would carry their product. I have to say if I didn't have spacing restrictions at the moment I was ready to floor atleast a couple of their beds. And some day I may re-consider the possibility. I had access to their american pricing sheets, I think they would work out to be much better priced than a Shifman and are truly made to a very similar standard of quality. I know that they have been regarded by many to be the best mattress made in the US. They also make organic versions of most of their beds if this is a concern to you as well. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
It does look like Royal-pedic uses high quality materials: cotton, wool, natural latex, a high coil count of double tempered steel. So, I guess there are some quality innersprings out there that most people aren't even aware of. You just have to look outside the major brands. I assume they cost a fair amount more, but to a certain extent you do get what you pay for. Out of curiosity, do you know the range of what a queen size would sell for in the retail market? |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
i think they are probably going to be high 2000's or so to start.(that could be for the organic version though that would cost more) but thats a far cry better than the over $5000 for the Shifman queen I found. yeah actually I just found a place that sells it. http://organicsleepproducts.com/rp-all-cotton-mattress-set.html |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
Dear lowbacpain, I know exactly what you're going through and I also feel your pain. I have been in the mattress manufacturing business for 20+ years. We have used latex foam, memory foam, innerspring units, gel, polyurethane foam, cotton, and a mixture of all of these in one form or the other. What I discovered is, that there is no one make or model of any mattress that will fit everyone's needs. For example, it has been my experience that combining a convoluted medium ILD poly-foam or latex in a variety of thicknesses on top of a 12-1/2 gauge innerspring unit gives you the best of both worlds when you suffer from back pain. I don't know where you live, but you could probably find a "Mom and Pop" factory direct in your area that could be of great help to you. Good luck! This message was modified Jan 31, 2010 by brothersbedding
|
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
budgy wrote: Im sure it would be really confusing and people would probably run out the doors if I just told them what the specs were on a mattress. like someone lays down on a bed and says 'this feels good what's in it?" 1218 independent pocket coils, 15.5 gauge of wire, 12cm tall, 7 turns in the coil, foam encased, 2" foam underneath the coils, 2" "firm foam", 2 1" layers of soft foam, half inch latex, half inch memory foam, 2" super soft convoluted foam, 33oz hollo fibre! But what people should be made aware of...at some point. 1. Coil mattresses (from normal brands) are quilted with various layers of polyurethane foam. 2. Polyurethane foam breaks down. 3. The more polyurethane foam you have the more serious your permanent body indentations will be and the sooner they show up. 4. A half inch of memory foam or latex does nothing to prevent the other 6" of poly foam in the pillow top from breaking down. From here, I can show people alternatives. I myself am not a specs guy, I know the specs very well, and actually so well to the point that I realize the important specs are never provided by a manufacturer which is how long will the mattress last, how well will it breathe, will it conform to the body and relieve pressure, will it be firm enough to keep your heavier regions from sinking too much? These are things that a spec sheet alone cannot tell you. When it does come down to buying a coil mattress which quite frankly is the most confusing type of mattress to buy, you should buy the TYPE of coil that works best with your body, you shouldn't buy the coil count or the gauge of wire. Budgy, can you expand on this statement: "you should buy the TYPE of coil that works best with your body, you shouldn't buy the coil count or the gauge of wire. " How does one know what type of coil works best with one's body? Are you saying that in a given line, say Serta, that their cheaper mattress with X number of coils is not going to have better springs than the more expensive one with more coils per same size? I always thought that - given a similar mattress in all other aspects - more coils was better in a Bonnel type coil mattress, for example. Also, I agree that the average Jane Doe wasn't want to know the specs of the mattress (coil count, ILD of foam, etc.). But I do think that if they began to print them on the mattress and made them available, a good percentage of people who I will call "smart consumers" would pay attention to that, learn about it and it would help them make a decision between one mattress and another. Do you disagree with that? I mean, you could be right. Another mattress sales guy who was here for awhile said the same thing: that people do not need or want to know the specs, it will only confuse them and mean nothing to them. My thought is that its a bit like computers: no one originally knew what RAM was or what chip speed was or what different types of RAM mean, but nowadays a good percentage of people have learned about these specs and what they mean, and certainly it helps those who know, choose the best computer for the price, by being able to compare them. I do realize that with mattresses it is all about how it feels and the things you listed are of course the MOST important basic things to know. But I still think they should list the "ingredients" for those who want to know and want to learn. I think if they did, eventually people would have a more sophisticated understanding of what mattresses are made of and what makes one better than another. THEN they have to lay on it, etc... Just my 2 cents. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
I guess I was really just saying that the 4 different types of coils all work quite differently regardless of the specs. Pocket coils, offset coils, bonnell coils, or continuous. I personally don't carry really any continuous coil products because they are very cheap. I sometimes even simplify things even more than this for people because realistically offset, bonnell and continuous springs are all similar in the aspect that the coils hinge along a lacing wire, and a pocket coil does not use a lacing wire. So I sometimes lump all 3 of the others together for simplicity sake. Comparing coil count and gauge of wire within one type of coil is somewhat fair and reasonable to do, however you cannot compare coil count and gauge of wire directly between 2 inherently different designs. This message was modified Feb 1, 2010 by budgy
|
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
Absolutely fascinating thread guys! Constant low back pain is so debilitating it is just awful. I suffered with it for a long time myself. I know exactly what you are talking about. Doctors sent me to physical therapists who hurt my ligaments with their testing, and promoted back exercises to help me strengthen my back. Did not help. I knew in my gut it was from the bed(s) I slept on. Went through quite a few, spent way too much money uselessly. Felt horribly frustrated. Where to turn...every bed promises what it does not deliver. I was going through new beds every three months. My husband thought I was kinda nuts, called me Princess and the Pea. Beds didn't bother him. Finally visited a hotel where to my great surprise, slept on a mattress that healed my back in two nights. It was amazing. I did my research and found it had offset coils, and a box spring with springs. It was an S brand, but I was not going to pay $5K for one similar to it, no way. I had one made to my specs. I like it, my back is good. I did not choose the foam that I knew I needed so have had to work with it a bit, but my mistake. Overall, great bed. Find a mom and pop bedmaker and get one made that you like. Or do mattress surgery if you have good coils and a brave soul. My mattress surgery result is at my stepdaughter's house...she loves the bed, but I did not care for marshall coils. Cutting it open did no damage other than cosmetic. As to why it is this way...profit, baby profit! It's all about right now, in hand, promise a better mousetrap, profit!!! They don't care about how we sleep really. Good luck. Kait |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
budgy wrote: Just thought I would give you another reply on this one....I think if you want to get a really good quality American made mattress and mostly filled with cotton batting. You really ought to check out a brand called Royal-Pedic. http://www.royal-pedic.com/ One of their reps actually made a visit to my store to see if we would carry their product. I have to say if I didn't have spacing restrictions at the moment I was ready to floor atleast a couple of their beds. And some day I may re-consider the possibility. I had access to their american pricing sheets, I think they would work out to be much better priced than a Shifman and are truly made to a very similar standard of quality. I know that they have been regarded by many to be the best mattress made in the US. They also make organic versions of most of their beds if this is a concern to you as well. Just thought I would tell you guys about one more option although it is very rare. A company I deal with called Green Sleep has started making their own hand made pocket coils, they are honeycomb nested with a pretty high spring count and surprisingly thick steel given the number of springs. I just got my shipment of beds in today, I believe I am one of only a handful of dealers in North America that carries them at the moment. I just put out one bed and it is built incredibly well. The base system is a slatted dowel type of base that uses natural rubber underneath slats and dowels to provide a suspension, very trick, everything is left wide open to allow lots of air to move in and out. On top of this there are two twin XL mattress cores that house the springs, surrounding the edges of these units is rubberized coconut fibre as an edge system....this stuff is incredibly firm and long lasting. Around all of this is wool batting, its been hand tufted all the way through and there are even linen turning handles to help flip the mattress cores, its all fully reversible. finally after all this they make a separate 'pillowtop' that is one piece and sits on both the spring units, its a 3" piece of soft natural dunlop rubber put in an organic cotton velour, it too has been tufted through and is fully reversible. lots of wool on the top of it, and less on the bottom side so you can flip it if you want it to be firmer. This mattress was shipped in 3 boxes, its pretty heavy, somewhere around 200 lbs...but thats a lot considering its about 12" thick. just thought id share my excitement, because I am thrilled to carry the product, hopefully more dealers will carry something like this near you guys in the future. Its not cheap but the quality of materials and craftsmanship is superb. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
Budgy - WOW! That sounds like a really great mattress! May I ask what the asking price is? Not that I am going to drive to Canada and bring it home from your store, but just to have an idea in case a friend wants to buy such a mattress. Do they have a web site? That brings me to this question: Although right now my mattress seems to be Great, with the Talalay layer replacing the HR foam I had there, I wonder if it might be even better (though I'm not likely to change it any time soon!) if I had a different box spring. I am using my old Sealy box springs under my Englander springs/diy mattress. I never really felt that the box springs matter much, but I've heard it say that they can. I assume that if you had some really custom built mattress and box then it might well make a difference, but on a Sealy/Englander/etc. type set up, probably not. As I recall, these 7 year old or so Sealy Box Springs are just a box made from wood and on top is some kind of metal wire system going across it but basically it's wood, with maybe just a LITTLE give. I wonder if I should try putting something like a firm piece of wood in between me and the box springs. But what kind of wood would I use if I did? (this question is for the DIY'ers among us) I could try putting it on the floor one night but I really have NO place to store the box in the meantime if I do, I would literally have to stand it up in the living room and then move it back and forth til I decided! Anyway, just curious as to how you feel about cheap mattresses and their need for box springs? Until I had the Sealy I never even used a box spring, I just put the mattress on the floor. I never liked bed frames - the metal frame kind - either! Too bouncy for me. So I have the box springs sitting on the floor. Oh... one more question for Budgy: Why did the S companies give up completely on making good mattreses, in your opinion? What I mean is this: Okay, the wanted to make them cheaper so people would not get "sticker shock" and be able to still "get a good bed for $1000". Okay, fine. But what I don't get is, why couldn't they have at least made a bed something like mine (basic springs but with all latex on top instead of Peee-Yew foam and a cotton or wool top). Wouldn't that have been a quality product they could produce for not all that much more money? I mean, I'm only using 2" of latex on top of a VERY firm 1/2"layer of HR foam on the bottom (I wonder if this layer is even necessary). So I don't see why they wouldn't at least try to make something like this, with no pu foam in it? Wouldn't they be able to sell such a mattress at a price point that some people would pay? In other words, why throw out the baby with the bath water?! It seems they just threw in the towel and are not even TRYING to make long-lasting quality mattresses anymore, not even as a "top of the line" item. This message was modified Feb 2, 2010 by jimsocal
|
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
Kait wrote: Absolutely fascinating thread guys! Kait, what is the name of the company you got your mattress from again? Do they have a web site?Constant low back pain is so debilitating it is just awful. I suffered with it for a long time myself. I know exactly what you are talking about. Doctors sent me to physical therapists who hurt my ligaments with their testing, and promoted back exercises to help me strengthen my back. Did not help. I knew in my gut it was from the bed(s) I slept on. Went through quite a few, spent way too much money uselessly. Felt horribly frustrated. Where to turn...every bed promises what it does not deliver. I was going through new beds every three months. My husband thought I was kinda nuts, called me Princess and the Pea. Beds didn't bother him. Finally visited a hotel where to my great surprise, slept on a mattress that healed my back in two nights. It was amazing. I did my research and found it had offset coils, and a box spring with springs. It was an S brand, but I was not going to pay $5K for one similar to it, no way. I had one made to my specs. I like it, my back is good. I did not choose the foam that I knew I needed so have had to work with it a bit, but my mistake. Overall, great bed. Find a mom and pop bedmaker and get one made that you like. Or do mattress surgery if you have good coils and a brave soul. My mattress surgery result is at my stepdaughter's house...she loves the bed, but I did not care for marshall coils. Cutting it open did no damage other than cosmetic. As to why it is this way...profit, baby profit! It's all about right now, in hand, promise a better mousetrap, profit!!! They don't care about how we sleep really. Good luck. Kait Kait, I had the same problem as you: My back was killing me all the time and I was seeing massage therapists, physical therapists, chiropractors, acupuncturists, you name it. Went through about 5 mattresses none of which worked for me. My wife thought I was nuts, constantly changing mattresses. (Although, at least she was somewhat supportive as she didn't like most of them we tried, either!) But here's where we differ: I finally settled on pure foam. I didn't like latex as an all-foam mattress (tried a Flobeds), so I decided to make my own "flobed" out of HR foam.  We bought various layers of 1" HR foam and divided them into thirds so we could do zoning and I figured: "This HAS to work! There HAS to be some combination of ILD's of foams and zones that will work for me!" So this is when my wife really thought I was nuts (and I had to admit it did seem nutty!  ) I would change it almost every night sometimes, for weeks on end, then stay with something for a week or two that didn't hurt me TOO bad, then when it started hurting again I would do an overhaul. You probably remember at least some of this from a couple years back. Part of my constant changing of the mattress, I attribute to the fact that I was using too much memory foam, and lousy memory foam at that. I finally learned that lesson. But anyway, so where I differed from Kait was that I kept saying, "We DON'T need springs!" My wife kept saying we needed springs and I kept saying she was wrong and kept trying to make all-foam work for me. But then, when we went to springs, the Sealy we bought worked for awhile and then it quit working. That's when I did my first mattress surgery. But still I was using memory foam and too much of it so that wasn't working. Then I got it to working pretty well and about that time, the Sealy springs gave out, or seemed to. That led me to buying the Englander, and since then things have been much better, except for the last few months when my HR foam was dying. Wish I had bought a GOOD well-built mattress instead of wasting all my time with HR foam and all-latex mattresses. But actually I did look into a RoyalPedic at one point, but just could not afford it. Or would not spend the requested money for it, in any case... Now my mattress seems to be working great! Finally! ... All this because the S companies quit making good mattresses! This message was modified Feb 2, 2010 by jimsocal
|
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
jimsocal wrote: Budgy - WOW! That sounds like a really great mattress! May I ask what the asking price is? Not that I am going to drive to Canada and bring it home from your store, but just to have an idea in case a friend wants to buy such a mattress. Do they have a web site? That brings me to this question: Although right now my mattress seems to be Great, with the Talalay layer replacing the HR foam I had there, I wonder if it might be even better (though I'm not likely to change it any time soon!) if I had a different box spring. I am using my old Sealy box springs under my Englander springs/diy mattress. I never really felt that the box springs matter much, but I've heard it say that they can. I assume that if you had some really custom built mattress and box then it might well make a difference, but on a Sealy/Englander/etc. type set up, probably not. As I recall, these 7 year old or so Sealy Box Springs are just a box made from wood and on top is some kind of metal wire system going across it but basically it's wood, with maybe just a LITTLE give. I wonder if I should try putting something like a firm piece of wood in between me and the box springs. But what kind of wood would I use if I did? (this question is for the DIY'ers among us) I could try putting it on the floor one night but I really have NO place to store the box in the meantime if I do, I would literally have to stand it up in the living room and then move it back and forth til I decided! Anyway, just curious as to how you feel about cheap mattresses and their need for box springs? Until I had the Sealy I never even used a box spring, I just put the mattress on the floor. I never liked bed frames - the metal frame kind - either! Too bouncy for me. So I have the box springs sitting on the floor. Oh... one more question for Budgy: Why did the S companies give up completely on making good mattreses, in your opinion? What I mean is this: Okay, the wanted to make them cheaper so people would not get "sticker shock" and be able to still "get a good bed for $1000". Okay, fine. But what I don't get is, why couldn't they have at least made a bed something like mine (basic springs but with all latex on top instead of Peee-Yew foam and a cotton or wool top). Wouldn't that have been a quality product they could produce for not all that much more money? I mean, I'm only using 2" of latex on top of a VERY firm 1/2"layer of HR foam on the bottom (I wonder if this layer is even necessary). So I don't see why they wouldn't at least try to make something like this, with no pu foam in it? Wouldn't they be able to sell such a mattress at a price point that some people would pay? In other words, why throw out the baby with the bath water?! It seems they just threw in the towel and are not even TRYING to make long-lasting quality mattresses anymore, not even as a "top of the line" item. www.greensleep.ca but their website is way out of date. The Vimala sleep system they show on their is all latex and is still probably their nicest mattress overall. but these newer coil mattresses are very new and they have yet to put the info on their own website. I will maybe PM you a link someday when I have updated our own site so you can read more about it. with the base system that is recommended for it the queen set should be around 4400 CDN and USD. so its pretty expensive. The firmer version of it with less latex and a slightly more simple base construction would be closer to 3600 I believe. I have yet to put the other 2 models out yet as I need to clear out some other stock at the moment. And yeah they definitely COULD make an all latex top in a coil mattress for marginally more money than what they currently build. it maybe wouldn't have a pillowtop and the look of a 1500 bed but I think it would be worth it. The one I got my local supplier to make for us with 3" of latex on top of a good quality marshall spring we sell @ 1399 every day, in the US something like that should be even a little less I would imagine. Granted people that buy coil beds like to have a recognizable name on the product, I bet I would sell more of them if people were not so concerned about the lack of a large companies label on the mattress. This is why I have asked S brand companies to build this for me in the past, but I was told not to expect it to happen for a while. EDIT: Sorry, I missed your Q about the bases. They are somewhat irrelevant with most of todays mattresses. I personally think a better bet than using a board on your existing base is to simply use the mattress only on a solid platform bed. Eliminate the chance of a boxspring failing on you and causing potential problems down the road. This message was modified Feb 2, 2010 by budgy
|
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
Hey, Jimsocal... I left you a message in your folder...A Better Bed in Fresno. Website not informative. Bill is a good guy. Kait |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
budgy wrote: i think they are probably going to be high 2000's or so to start.(that could be for the organic version though that would cost more) but thats a far cry better than the over $5000 for the Shifman queen I found. yeah actually I just found a place that sells it. http://organicsleepproducts.com/rp-all-cotton-mattress-set.html Budgy, the Shifmans are significantly marked up on the Bloomie's web site - they typically sell at 40-60% of 'retail,' so the one you are referring to, which I think is the Chateau I asked you about, can be gotten for around $3,000. In light of that, do you still think the Royal-pedic prevails -- i.e., assuming the price were comparable, which bed is better in terms of quality, durability, performance, etc.? Also, for those interested in Royal-pedic, Royal-pedic sells direct and what I like about them is that they are straight shooters on price - unlike other traditional manufacturers, they don't seem to mark up the 'retail' price only to sell them at a steep discount. But having tried some of their beds, I found the all-cotton ones to be rock hard without the latex topper. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
| At a level playing field on price I am gonna say its a toss up and you should at that point simply go for whatever feels best. I was kind of assuming any mattress that uses all cotton batting is going to be pretty firm. If the Shifman feels better though and you can get it for the same than its probably the better choice for YOU, I don't have any reason to believe there would be a significant difference in quality either way. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
| Alice, that bed you bought sounds really nice. Can you post for us the entire contents of the bed as disclosed on the label sewn onto the bed? |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
|
You bet, I'll go home and tell you. Some kind of polyester? Alice |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
| It would be best if you start a new thread with the name and model of your bed, and start with all the contents of the bed as shown on the label. Please follow up with how it feels over several nights/weeks and how well it reduces your body pain. |