You get to help choose my latex - (please play along!)
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I am operating under the assumption, for now, that my HR foam layer in my mattress has given up its support qualities to a degree that is causing me back pain. So, I am going to replace the 1" of HRfoam with 1" of either Talalay or Dunlop latex. Since I don't know what ILD the HR is that I have used - and at times I've used Firm and Medium with success - I am not sure which ILD to buy to replace it, so would like opinions from those who are sleeping on latex or familiar with it. Here's how the build will be (what has worked before): Springs on bottom (Englander 12.5 gauge) Next (over a very thin 1/4" or so layer of memory foam just to keep the foam from being damaged by the springs): the Talalay or Dunlop I'll be buying (1")(?) 3/4" of soft Talalay (I already have; 20-28ILD?) That might be all. I have found that using 2" of base foam instead of 1" seems to negate the feel and support of the springs; at least that was my feeling from having tried it with 2" of HR foam. This may or may not be true, but that seemed to be the case. I am open to other suggestions but for now something similar to this configuration is what I want to try. At times I put memory foam in the mix but I think I'm DONE with memory foam now! It seems to just cause back pain for me. So perhaps I could use another inch of latex to replace the inch of memory foam I was using before when it worked for me... Now, the question is, which ILD or Talalay or Dunlop (or both) should I buy? Here are my choices: Sleeplikeabear has : Talatech Talalay 1" layers of ILD 32, 36 and 40 among others, at $113 including shipping. (TWIN) I am thinking 32 or 36. Which? Sleepez has Dunlop 1" layer of 30-32 or 38-40, for $70 but they seem to charge $49 for shipping which I think is WAY too high and I am going to call them and ask about that. In any case, the bottom line price of $119 is not too bad. Here, it seems to me, the 30-32 is the only choice because the other would probably be too firm for me. But I'm open to discussion on that. So let's say I'm going to buy 2 - one for me, and one for my wife, which we can change out after a time so we each get to try each one. (Her configuration is different than mine.) What ILD's would you buy for that bottom layer(s) above springs? (I'm 5'10, weigh 180 but big around the middle.) |
Re: You get to help choose my latex - (please play along!)
| Well . . . if you are going to go Talatech, and since you're only using 1", I would go with the 32. I have three layers of 36 ILD Talatech (almost 9") and it's pretty darn firm. I have a 2.75" layer of 32 on top of those 36 layers. When I first get into bed sometimes I feel like I'm on a slab. At that firmness, I still have pressure point relief, though. My back is not always 100% pain free in the morning, but I no longer have any pressure point pain. |
Re: You get to help choose my latex - (please play along!)
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My gut instinct is that you get the 30-32 dunlop. Being denser, I think you will find that more supportive than the Talatech while not being overly firm. I have never used dunlop, so that is just an educated guess. Personally, I don't think 2 inches total above the springs will be enough, but I have never done mattress surgery like you. So, I think ordering 2 1" pieces upfront is smart (to help reduce average shipping cost). Then you could try with 1 or 2" below your softer piece . If you don't need both, you could use one on your wife's bed or return one. Do you think your softer piece is still good? How old is it? Also, have you checked to see if the springs have shifted around at all? One thing I worry about cutting the top of the mattress, is that it will lose structural support. The tightness of the cover also affects the firmness of the mattress. If I end up doing surgery, I have thought of keeping the cover attached on one side and perhaps using velcro to hold it on firmly on the other sides. |
Re: You get to help choose my latex - (please play along!)
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sandman wrote: My gut instinct is that you get the 30-32 dunlop. Being denser, I think you will find that more supportive than the Talatech while not being overly firm. I have never used dunlop, so that is just an educated guess. Personally, I don't think 2 inches total above the springs will be enough, but I have never done mattress surgery like you. So, I think ordering 2 1" pieces upfront is smart (to help reduce average shipping cost). Then you could try with 1 or 2" below your softer piece . If you don't need both, you could use one on your wife's bed or return one. Do you think your softer piece is still good? How old is it? Also, have you checked to see if the springs have shifted around at all? One thing I worry about cutting the top of the mattress, is that it will lose structural support. The tightness of the cover also affects the firmness of the mattress. If I end up doing surgery, I have thought of keeping the cover attached on one side and perhaps using velcro to hold it on firmly on the other sides. Kimberly, my inclination was to go with the slightly higher ILD latex and the 30-32 Dunlop as sandman wrote. However part of me wants to get the 32 of both so I can have a directly comparison. That's the "mattress surgeon" part of me that wants to really know and feel the difference between Talalay and Dunlop of the same ILD! (Wish I could just go somewhere and FEEL them, first!) Budgy, can I drive up to Canada and feel them at your folks' store?  No, I guess that's too far to drive... So right now that is what I am inclining towards. I'm still very open to ideas though. For example, I called Sleeplikeabear or whatever it is and asked about a break on shipping. He said he'd get back to me on that. But he said that really 1" might be enough over the springs if I want it very firm. I have tried mine before with HR foam, having both 2" and 1" over the mattress and I preferred the 1". But that does not include the 1" Venus topper I had AND the 3/4" soft latex, so really I had 2 and 3/4" inches, not 1". But I think you are right, sandman, I can buy both and use one for my wife's bed if I don't like 2" of latex. Very interesting about the structural integrity of the mattress. I have wondered about that myself. I might see what I can do about firming that up. I could tie it with bailing wire or something...? Any ideas on that since I've already cut off the top. (I hate those tufted tops they sew onto mattresses!) |
Re: You get to help choose my latex - (please play along!)
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Dunlop seems like it would be good at the support level. Whether you would prefer 1 or 2 inches is hard to say. You might like dunlop on the bottom, blended in the middle and your soft layer on top? Hard to say. Trial and error is the only way to know. Not sure the best way to tighten up the mattress. One way would be to sew on some straps, pull them accross and attach them on the other sided somehow (velcro?). Not sure if you would be able to feel the straps under the latex though. Or you could sew on a whole cover on 1 side and attach (with velro?) on the other side. I would not worry too much about that unless it seems like the coils are bulging out the side (i.e. your weight is pushing them sideways a bit instead of staying under you). Maybe lay on it and feel the sides to see if they appear to be bulging sideways. If they are, you may be losing support. I think it would be less likely if the coils are joined together somehow. Not sure how your Englader is constructed. Once I slept with the flobed cover off to see if the wool was causing heat issues. The mattress seemed softer because the latex was able to bulge sideways more than with a tight fitting top on. |
Re: You get to help choose my latex - (please play along!)
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Good to know the stuff about the tightness of the mattress. I want to try the Dunlop but frankly I'm a little p'd off that Sleepez is trying to charge $49 for a 1" layer to be shipped, when they charge the same for a 3" layer. Makes no sense to me, unless I guess they factor in that the people who buy 1" toppers are going to subsidize the shipping for those who buy 3" layers! So I'm leaning towards not doing business with them unless they can cut me a break - say half or so off - on the cost of shipping. Maybe they just didn't get around to calling me back today and will call me back tomorrow. If that's the case, I'll edit this to reflect that. I really don't like it when companies make money off shipping. In other words, I'd rather they price the product at a fair price and then charge the actual cost of shipping - plus something fair for handling and materials. But when people on ebay, for example, charge $10 for shipping something that is very light and small and I know it costs them about $3 to ship with 50 cents of materials, well, I usually just won't do business with them. To me, the 1" should cost one price to ship and the 3" should cost another price. Okay, done with my sleepez shipping charge rant! So I may just end up buying the Talalay from Sleeplikeabear, and if I do that, I'll probably buy one firm and one medium, I think. |
Re: You get to help choose my latex - (please play along!)
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Jim; One thing about your mattress conformation that you might want to address is that there is no insulator layer between the springs and the foams. In a good mattress, made the old fashioned way, there is at least one insulator layer of either burlap or a special wire mesh, that keeps the springs separate from the foam. (Bill's beds have both). I cut open a bed before that which had no insulator layer...individual coils glued to about 6" of supersoft p/u foam, that was it. What if you tried removing the memory foam piece and put the old mattress top over the coils? That would serve as an insulator layer and add a bit of cush, but not too much. In my bed I have a layer of several inches of cotton batting over the insulator layer, then the foam. You know how a little tiny change can affect the feel of the bed, maybe try this? Just a thought. Kait |
Re: You get to help choose my latex - (please play along!)
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Kait wrote: Jim; One thing about your mattress conformation that you might want to address is that there is no insulator layer between the springs and the foams. In a good mattress, made the old fashioned way, there is at least one insulator layer of either burlap or a special wire mesh, that keeps the springs separate from the foam. (Bill's beds have both). I cut open a bed before that which had no insulator layer...individual coils glued to about 6" of supersoft p/u foam, that was it. What if you tried removing the memory foam piece and put the old mattress top over the coils? That would serve as an insulator layer and add a bit of cush, but not too much. In my bed I have a layer of several inches of cotton batting over the insulator layer, then the foam. You know how a little tiny change can affect the feel of the bed, maybe try this? Just a thought. Kait Hi Kait, and thanks. Actually there is a layer of some kind of black synthetic material on top of the springs, it's like a thick burlap-type cloth but appears to be synthetic. Originally I had the mattress without anything on top of that, but recently - after I began having problems - added the 1/4 layer of memory foam that was originally on top of the springs on my old Sealy. As to the mattress cover that I cut off my Englander, I threw it in the trash, so can't use that. If the new layer(s) of latex don't solve my problem, I will begin to try various other things, like this, and like putting it on the floor instead of on the box springs, tightening up the mattress as someone suggested by strapping it together tighter, etc.. The more I think about it, the more I think the HR foam is simply old and lost its support and latex should solve the problem. I hope! |
Re: You get to help choose my latex - (please play along!)
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Jim, one other thing you have to consider in pricing is that sleeplikeabear will charge sales tax, but I don't think sleepez will (they are based in Arizona). So, that will probably add about $10 to your 1" from sleeplikeabear, making it more than sleepez (even with a high shipping charge). If you buy 2 1" pieces, sleepez will look even cheaper. Also, you can get 100% natural talalay from sleepez (for a 10% premium) if you are worried about dunlop. I would definitely pay the 10% premium (over the blended talalay) for the extra weight, density and support of 100% natural, based on what I know now. Especially for a lower layer. I believe their talalay (blended and 100% natural) are made by Latex International, but you would want to verify that. This message was modified Jan 13, 2010 by sandman
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Re: You get to help choose my latex - (please play along!)
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Hi Jim, I am kind of surprised nobody at this forum has mentioned the o-stock.com ECO latex mattress toppers. They are $75 for twin XL 1.5 inches of natural latex, $100 for queen, $133 for King; they also have 2 inch toppers. No they will not tell you what density it is, most reviews say medium firm (I agree) but I believe they are seconds, or factory rejects. I am not sure. But they are no more flawed than the ones I have seen pictures of FBM (I had one that was truly flawed, but I had extra latex and stuffed latex pieces in the 2x6" hole). The density or ILD is not labeled nor will they tell you what they are. But if you are just starting out on latex toppers ($2.95 shipping) it may be worth checking out. I have been using these for almost a year now, switching them around because they are different ILDS/density. But I believe they are dunlop, can't verify for sure. It seems to be a grab bag, once I got talalay lol. But since I didn't know what I wanted in terms of ILD it was what I was willing to do and since I couldn't afford the pricey stuff......Just a thought for those of us on a tight budget, but need something latex! I have been moving the layers around again, and I pitched the memory foam (which I think was causing my leg pain). I was sinking in too much so I removed the 24ILD piece from the hip area and put the firmer dunlop in place. Last night wasn't bad. This is a continual science project! But my back has been happy with the firmer latex. I have 24ILD at the shoulder area and have been happy since doing that (zoning). This message was modified Jan 13, 2010 by Leo3
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Re: You get to help choose my latex - (please play along!)
| Re Overstock eco mattress, I tried the 2" and had to return what they sent me. They accidentally sent me the 1.5", but more problematic was that the latex was torn significantly in some places with gaping holes missing entire chunks (as in several inch chunks) of latex and there were black/grayish stains that were in the shape of big man footprints, no joke. Also, a seam down the middle as they had attached two pieces to make a queen size. But what was interesting was that the one I got was marked with an L.I. sticker along with ILD -- in the 26 range. So Leo, I think you're right -- it's a grab bag of factory seconds and/or returns. But to Overstock's credit, the customer service rep was (or at least sounded) mortified when I told her and they took it right back for a full credit. Their customer service seemed great from that one interaction, and they sent me a follow up form email afterwards asking me to rate the interaction on several key metrics so there is clearly some level of accountability at the individual rep level. |
Re: You get to help choose my latex - (please play along!)
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I also had one labeled L.I. 24 ILD KK, but I could tell right away it was not the medium/firm latex like the others. I felt the medium firm pieces were Dunlop, because one side was different texture, shiny like and seemed softer. The 24ILD I used to make zoning pieces, so I worked around the flaws and put that part at the pillow end. I had to contact customer service many times and didn't get good response many times. I did complain about the different ILD not being the same as the others, and I was told there is no description of the firmness. When I complained about the flaw holes they said I could return, but I tossed the boxes because the enclosed letter in the box said no returns. So I asked for a discount, after pics were sent. Mine were all clean, except the last one had 2 dirty spots, but water and a cotton cloth clean it right off. I don't believe (I hope not) they are returns (gasp, I am a germafob). I was thinking it was latex pieces used to make mattresses that the bed maker decided they didn't want because of various flaws. My label had KK on it (KingKoil?) so that was my feeling. But as I said it was the only way I could afford to buy latex. Mine seemed consistent on thickness, and I do like it for my back. Did you keep any of the latex? Even though I seem to be complaining, I am still happy with the latex pieces being in my budget. I think they should just be up front about it being a grab bag and seconds. I also thought since the latex was rolled and folded in a plastic bag that appears to have used a machine to fill it that meant it wasn't returned and came direct from the plant. Guess that is like someone said about the air being sucked out of a bag they thought that meant it was not returned, but that I know anyone can do. I did return Brylane home natura latex mattress toppers because they were obviously returned, they were very dirty. I did keep one that was clean. This message was modified Jan 14, 2010 by Leo3
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Re: You get to help choose my latex - (please play along!)
| Leo, I only ordered one and I returned it. I only conjectured it was returned - it was packaged well, so you're probably right that it was a factory second. |
Re: You get to help choose my latex - (please play along!)
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I couldn't get through to sleepez all afternoon on Friday so am waiting til Monday to try again. I rejected sleeplikeabear because they only have blended Talalay, and no Dunlop. At this point I am pretty sure I'm going to buy 1" of 32 ILD Dunlop and 1" of 32 ILD Talalay. My wife and I can both try them that way, and I can see if I notice any difference between the two. So I'll report back here when I do finally get some latex and try it. Might be 2-3 weeks from now... |
Re: You get to help choose my latex - (please play along!)
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As I posted in my 0ther thread, I did end up buying from SleepEZ last week. They were out of one of my latex layers so they had to wait to get it. So I just found out they shipped today! Not sure when it will get here, but at least it is shipped! Yay! 1.5" Dunlop natural medium and 1" Talalay natural medium. This message was modified Jan 25, 2010 by jimsocal
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