The "S" brands?

[megalops]

megalops wrote:

Well, either flobeds figured out a way to do so for under $5K, or they're flat out lying to us. They do post these: http://www.flobeds.com/Oeko-Tex.htm for their wool and LI's Latex, so if Strobel is correct, they must be adding something to their organic cotton.
I do have a sample of their cover, and I do work at a place with a metals lab. I can ask the lab manager if he can test it for me. I have no idea if they can or not, but I'll definitely ask.

Here's a couple more links on wool: http://greenlivingqa.com/content/flame-retardants-mattesses-whi
"Now, about that link, note that the photos show a single strand of wool burning. A single strand with a lot of air around it. Fire requires air to burn. I learned that building fires in my wood stove. A single match burns fine, but pile up pieces of wood with no air between them and they won't burn. So I'm not surprised that a single strand of wool yarn would burn like a candle wick. But in a mattress it is a layer of wool--complete different conditions."
And this one: http://www.surroundewe.com/WoolvsOther.asp#faq22
Though natural, untreated wool is scratchier than synthetic fabrics, wool is less susceptible to burning. The US Military, through extensive studies, use wool for uniforms and protective gear due to its natural resistant to fire.
"Wool burns with a self-extinguishing flame and produces a soft ash that dissipates and will not lodge in open wounds," says Jeanette M. Cardamone, a chemist at the ARS Eastern Regional Research Center in Wyndmoor, Pennsylvania. “Synthetic materials, on the other hand, form hot, molten beads that can drip into a wound and cause trauma.” (ERRC)
I'm not saying Strobel is incorrect, but I really have a hard time believing that they are correct, and that every mattress company who claims wool with no chemicals as their fire barrier is lying. Especially since a simple lab test could put each and every one of the businesses under, and expose them to massive lawsuits.

 

[SallySmiles]

Without taking up space with too much copying - I'm thrilled to have this much information and get this going
megalops, I agree with you and having been researching this for months I totally agree. I still like the FloBeds, but when I go testing mattresses I can take my list and hopefully get some idea of price comparison for what is inside. A few on my short list are similar.

This is why I am looking at latex mattresses - - NOT the S brands and this is why I was surprosed when i discovered that S&F had a latex that has cashmere in the cover etc/ I'm apparently more tired than I thought. Yes I am aware that S&F is owned by Sealy - hard not too if searching on the web, but at least they give you a content list.
I have nothing against them all - have been happy with Simmons for many years, but the times are changing and I would like to sleep. I refuse polyfoam, period and have been appalled that manufacturers are allowed to say a latex bed even if ionly an inch. That's what's wrong with the S brands.
I am looking at several manufactureres who do not use boric acid and the wool is the flame barrier. Horray! OMI, Englander, Natura, Southhard just to name a few. Some do use boric acid, frankly I would prefer that to the unknown whatever it is and a fabric doused in formaldehyde. So I am going natural - one way or another.
If the weather works out we are going to test Englander, Natura, and OMI this weekend (yes OMI is short for 'Oh my - it's expensive') and I've tried Southard which uses wool. I do know the difference between latex and plyfoam. The difference between organic cotton and just cotton, the difference between organic wool and just wool - - I won't have synthetic latex either. I've got a discussion going with the retailer and covered exchange, returns, delivery - so far so good - they carry good products.
My biggest concern at this point is whether I can stand the latex smell, there is a big difference in a small sample vs a bed.

 

[Catherine]

megalops wrote:
Here's a couple more links on wool: http://greenlivingqa.com/content/flame-retardants-mattesses-whi
.........And this one: http://www.surroundewe.com/WoolvsOther.asp#faq22
Thanks for those links. I've spent the past couple of evenings reading a bunch of stuff about the fire retardants in mattresses but hadn't read either of those pages. I did find a different site that countered some of Strobel's claims but lost track of it.
There is a whole lotta stuff out there on the 'Net, and I'm finding it difficult to find independent science -- that I can understand without a degree in chemistry -- and separate that out from various marketing claims and from the perhaps overly alarmist sites that equate the word "chemical" with "toxin."
I think I am more confused now than I was before. I'm now wondering, for instance:

• Are mass-produced mattresses made before the FR regulation went into effect in 2007 considered safe -- should I buy a friend's 10-year-old barely used guest-bed mattress? -- or are they dangerous because of PBDEs and other FRs that have since been, or are being, phased out?
  
• Are mass-produced mattresses made after 2007 more dangerous because of the newer FRs being used?
  
• If I go with an all-latex mattress and there's a fire, will that latex turn into a giant fireball* if it's not covered with enough wool? (I don't smoke, use a laptop in bed, or use space heaters, but things can happen anyway.)

Meanwhile, I do all this research while sitting at my 20-year-old desk, made of particle board covered with some sort of laminate, wondering how much formeldahyde I've breathed in over the years....

* Short video of small piece of natural latex igniting:

 

[wideawake]

Jim
You suggest that we buy a simmons non pillow top mattress and then add latex toppers . It seems to me that if the underlying structure of the mattresses is collapsable because it is composed of polyeurethane , then won't the mattress soon sag even with the latex toppers ?
You can put lipstick on a pig....

 

[DaveStro]

SallySmiles wrote:
Without taking up space with too much copying - I'm thrilled to have this much information and get this going

megalops, I agree with you and having been researching this for months I totally agree. I still like the FloBeds, but when I go testing mattresses I can take my list and hopefully get some idea of price comparison for what is inside. A few on my short list are similar.

This is why I am looking at latex mattresses - - NOT the S brands and this is why I was surprosed when i discovered that S&F had a latex that has cashmere in the cover etc/ I'm apparently more tired than I thought. Yes I am aware that S&F is owned by Sealy - hard not too if searching on the web, but at least they give you a content list.
I have nothing against them all - have been happy with Simmons for many years, but the times are changing and I would like to sleep. I refuse polyfoam, period and have been appalled that manufacturers are allowed to say a latex bed even if ionly an inch. That's what's wrong with the S brands.
I am looking at several manufactureres who do not use boric acid and the wool is the flame barrier. Horray! OMI, Englander, Natura, Southhard just to name a few. Some do use boric acid, frankly I would prefer that to the unknown whatever it is and a fabric doused in formaldehyde. So I am going natural - one way or another.
If the weather works out we are going to test Englander, Natura, and OMI this weekend (yes OMI is short for 'Oh my - it's expensive') and I've tried Southard which uses wool. I do know the difference between latex and plyfoam. The difference between organic cotton and just cotton, the difference between organic wool and just wool - - I won't have synthetic latex either. I've got a discussion going with the retailer and covered exchange, returns, delivery - so far so good - they carry good products.
My biggest concern at this point is whether I can stand the latex smell, there is a big difference in a small sample vs a bed.
I agree natural is the best way to go. Not all will use boric acid, but they will use one of the other toxic chemicals and there is no way around it currently. Formaldehyde is also used in poly foams as well.
Englander is a great brand as well and get their latex from Sri Lanka. Again it will be either a blended latex or Latex of top of a poly core, but they have been around for a very long time and have a very good reputation. I would have to say Englander is the better of the ones mentioned above from my experiance. Southards is also a blended synthetic latex. I couldnt believe on their innspring mattress prices usign an intro level 460 coil offset innerspring unit on queen sets from $2200 too $4400. I would say they are at the bottom of the list with the ones mentioned above.
100% natural latex really doesnt have much of any smell. The smell will come from the blended latex or the synthetic.

 

[megalops]

DaveStro wrote:
I agree natural is the best way to go. Not all will use boric acid, but they will use one of the other toxic chemicals and there is no way around it currently. Formaldehyde is also used in poly foams as well.

Davestro, if in the above statement you're referring to passing the CFR 1633 fire standards, please provide some proof to your statement. I find it very hard to believe that dozens of bedding manufacturers are blatantly lying to their customers in writing about something which can be easily proven by some simple lab tests.
If Strobel really believed the propaganda on its website, it would've already taken legal action against all these companies. There would be very nice civil lawsuits against them for trying to gain a competitive advantage by purposely misrepresenting their products. Business lawyers live for stuff like this, especially when it can be so easily proven, and especially when consumer health is involved.
I do like the fact that Strobel has tried to corner a portion of the market looking for a poison free mattress, but unfortunately they've gone too far by stating: "There are no natural, chemical free, or nontoxic systems that pass the severe open flame test." Their stunt of burning some wool yarn hardly proves the previous statement true. They're just trying to scare people into buying their mattresses.

 

[DoreenA]

wideawake wrote:
Jim

You suggest that we buy a simmons non pillow top mattress and then add latex toppers . It seems to me that if the underlying structure of the mattresses is collapsable because it is composed of polyeurethane , then won't the mattress soon sag even with the latex toppers ?
You can put lipstick on a pig....
Not Jim, but the suggestion is not just to not buy a pillowtop. It's to buy a good quality FIRM mattress with a mimimum of foam padding in the top, then add whatever topper you like. To me, this is the most sensible and economical (if economics are a concern) solution. I did just that, and am very happy with the results. Yes, my firm innerspring mattress will eventually sag but I will get much more wear out of it than I would a pillowtop that is nearly guaranteed to sag badly within months, leaving you with an expensive, useless bed that you need to either replace or perform surgery on.

 

[SallySmiles]

DaveStro - - we didn't go with Englander because frankly the retailer really ticked me off.
In the end I didn't care what brands they carried, how good the reputation was, or pricepoint - and hubby really didn't want a Dunlop core because is tends to smell rubbery. The retailer carried OMI and Natura - again good brands, but as a consumer I tend to be choosy about the people involved. For a two hour trip I wanted some answers ahead, they dodged me on all counts other than the standard sales pitch.

So we went with Soaring Heart, local company who made us a lovely mattress, foundation and topper - - we are sleeping now and getting rest,

 

[slpngoc]

I selected a Stearns and Foster 'Heathstone' plush mattress from Sears last June and gave it a couple weeks before knowing I didn't want to spend the next 8+ years on it. I have a damaged right shoulder. Tore the joint up years ago doing a bench press not warmed up and frankly wish I had never messed around with any barbell weights. I'm not on sports teams. 8 years later, finally found a specialist in San Francisco, a pioneer in shoulder surgery who did an acromioplasty to make room for the impinged rotator cuff. It helped but will always hurt a bit every day.

So, I don't get to sleep on my right shoulder in any bed out there. The Stearns and Foster didn't allow it. It felt pretty plush in the store, but the reality was the construction was cheap batting in the quilt and underneath, likely cheap foams with fancy trademarked names. The plush feel firmed up noticeably in a few days to a week, then it took on a run-of-the-mill feel. Good support from springs, mediocre comfort.
I'll skip talking abouty the Serta iComfort because I went a little too soft from the get go and had to ditch that one.
But, after 5 months, this Tempurpedic Cloud is a keeper. I'd be surprised if the feel changed within the next 10 years. I had a Tempurpedic Symphony pillow for at least 3 years, and it felt exactly the same as day one. I've since switched to a TP Comfort pillow.
Yes, I would be concerned about any subtle effects of off-gassing, and yes, the Tempurpedic had a slight odor that lasted not for weeks, but months. Noticeable when walking into room with closed door. I don't notice the odor much now and of course hope there's never an affect, but I suppose there's always some affect from anything that smells.
Another time I might try the all natural, no returns route, but still, I'm happy with this Cloud base model because the support is really good and the comfort it exceptional!