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Which mattress should I buy? My "mattress resume'" is printed below following the bulk of this message. I feel pretty qualified to give this advice, but of course, take it with a grain of salt. This is just my opinion, in the end. But it is based on many other people's experiences as well as my own,and it gives you some info that you can use to make your own decision. This is surely not "DEFINITIVE" and I hope others who've been here on this forum awhile and experimented with foams and mattress springs will add their 2 cents. But I write this because I sincerely believe it will help the average mattress buyer. SO HERE IS MY RECOMMENDATION TO MATTRESS BUYERS: 1) Buy the kind of springs you like. Find out as best you can what kind you have been using, that you like, and buy the same mattress or as similar as you can get. My only exception to that rule is if you bought cheap pocket coils like Simmons. Those are known to break down quickly and won't last, so I would not buy them again. In that case, just buy some good "regular" springs (not pocket coils) , OR plan to replace your springs at least every 6 months if you do buy Simmons pocket coils. If you always loved your Sealy or Englander mattress but need a new one, then just buy the closest thing you can to what you had. Don't be talked into the latest greatest thing by the salesman. Stick to what you know and like. With springs there are basically 2 major considerations: 1) the number of coils. This is usually measured as per the Queen size. Personally I don't think it matters that much as long as the springs are constructed in a quality manner. 2) the gauge of the coils - this refers to the thickness of the wire in the springs. A lower number indicates a thicker, firmer spring and a higher number indicates a thinner, less firm spring. Pocket coils tend to be thin and that's why they break down. Personally I prefer a thicker spring and that's why I currently am using 12.5 gauge Englander springs (actually Bonnell type). But some experts believe that a 13 gauge spring is perfect. Some say 12¾. You'll hear about the number of turns in the spring and this also affects it. I'm no expert on springs but I would say that for the most part any good 12.5 to 13 gauge spring will work and it's an individual preference. If you weigh over, say, 180lb it may behoove you to go with thicker springs. 2) THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ADVICE I CAN GIVE YOU: BUY THE FIRMEST MATTRESS YOU CAN GET WITH THE SPRINGS YOU LIKE. AND NEVER EVER BUY A PILLOW TOP OR PLUSH MATTRESS. "But I LOVE a soft cushy mattress!" you say. Okay, fine. Make it as plush as you want by adding your own Toppers or doing mattress surgery and adding your own high quality foams on top of the springs. (more on "mattress surgery" later) Why not buy it with the foam already in the mattress to make it nice and soft? Because foam breaks down and the more soft and cheap foam you have inside the mattress the quicker it will break down. And because all the big mattress companies are keeping costs low by using lots of cheap polyurethane foam (referred to as PU or Poly foam), you are better off buying a firmer mattress and then adding your own topper (or, as some of us prefer, opening up the mattress and replacing the foam inside with latex or other higher quality foam). You can make a too-firm mattress softer but you cannot make a too-soft mattress firmer! The big mattress companies make the mattresses ultra soft with cheap p.u. foam so it will feel "like a cloud" in the store so that you'll buy it. But it will break down in a week or a month or 6 months and then you'll be stuck with it, and - if you're like most people - since you cannot now return it, you will buy a new mattress. Since ALL the big mattress companies (sometimes referred to as the "Big S" companies) are doing this, your only option is to buy an all latex mattress or an air mattress or buy a mattress from a store and then do mattress surgery sooner or later. More on that later... So my conclusion is that what you should do is buy a good quality firm mattress with good quality springs and then add your own toppers to make it softer. That way when the toppers break down you can just buy new toppers. And since the firm mattress has less cheap p.u. foam, it will break down less quickly. As to whether the more expensive mattresses are really better, you'll have to decide that on your own. There are some private smaller companies still making good spring mattresses but these will generally cost you quite a bit more than the Big S mattresses. Worth it? Maybe. I am skeptical of all but the most expensive super-quality mattresses that really do use high quality materials and springs. Otherwise you may as well go for a cheap mattress with good springs and change the foams inside, yourself. Eventually you'll probably have to do mattress surgery, because the foams inside your mattress WILL break down. As to how to dissect a mattress and perform surgery, you can check out the link I've given below and you can find many other threads here regarding that process, some with better photos than the link I posted. SEE THE TOP OF THIS FORUM WHERE IT SAYS "HIGHLIGHTED THREADS". Performing surgery on your first mattress is kind of like diving into a pool for the first time, it seems scary because you've never done it before. And you just HATE cutting into your beautiful nice mattress - even if it's been killing your back. But believe me, once you do it you'll be glad you did because you can get rid of that cheap and/or broken down foam that was giving you no support and buy some good quality foam to replace it with. Your back will be glad you had the courage to cut into that mattress! To cut foam (like if you buy a large King size Sensus foam topper and want to cut it down to Twin or Full size) or if you want to experiment with zones by cutting up your latex or memory foam pieces, use a cheap electric meat carving knife, such as the ones at K-Mart or Target. It'll cut it like butter. For cutting into your mattress to take it apart, use an exacto type knife with a razor type blade. My recommendations for foams and toppers: ***Latex is the highest quality foam you can buy. There are 2 ways of processing latex: Talalay and Dunlop. GENERALLY speaking (there are exceptions) Talalay feels bouncy and Dunlop feels harder and firmer by comparison. Some prefer one and some prefer the other. Dunlop is getting a little harder to get but some places sell it and use it in their latex mattresses. Latex can be used for both a core or foundation, and as toppers, as it comes in various firmnesses which are referred to as ILD. A lower ILD is softer, a higher ILD is firmer. Usually anything under 22 ILD is considered "soft", 24-32 is considered Medium, and 36 and above is considered FIRM. This can vary a bit but that's a rule of thumb. Remember that Dunlop generally feels firmer than Talalay processed latex. [**Note: See the posts by Cloud9 and Alexander below for more clarification on this, and Budgy has posted some excellent info on the differences, in other threads.] ***Memory foam is good for only the top half inch or no more than 2 inches if you go by what many members here have experienced. There are qualities of memory foam and usually the more dense memory foam, represented in pounds - such as 5lb density - is better because it gives more support. I recommend real Venus or real Sensus memory foam if you have to have it. However, many people seem to find it non-supportive and it seems to get more non-supportive over time much like pu or poly foam so keep that in mind. Tempurpedic is one of the best memory foams available and it works well for some people, but some find it not to be supportive enough after it breaks in. But you cannot buy 1" or 2" layers of Tempurpedic you can only buy a whole mattress with it. ***HR foam. HR foam can be bought via the net or from a foam store. If you live in a big city try finding a furniture maker or foam distributor instead of a retail store. I honestly don't know if most will sell to individuals but I have been lucky in finding a foam distributor which cuts and sells custom foam to manufacturers and they sell to individuals. If you can't find that you will pay more via a foam retailer. HR foam is rated to last 10 years. My experience is it is more likely to only last a couple years but if you're on a budget that might be good enough for now. Like all pu foam you can get it in various firmnesses or ild's. I like a 40-something ILD for a base and 24-36ILD for middle and top layers. With this you have to experiment to find what YOU like. But it's not too expensive; maybe 1/3 the price of latex. Here's a good thread about a cheap mattress made with HD (similar to HR) foam: http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/i-love-my-mattress/10717-0-1.html This message was modified Mar 19, 2010 by jimsocal
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First post guys. Have any of you slept on the M-Grade Foam from overnightmattress.com? I was thinking of getting that as my base. How many years do you think it would last? Last, what didn't you like about the latex/memory core beds that you slept on? I want to make a DIY MF/Latex bed with MF as the core and Talalay as the upper layers. What do you guys think? |
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Vaphils, if you'd typed "M-Grade" or "overnight mattress" in the search engine... I think you'd find my posts all about Overnightmattress.com and M-grade foam... Here's the quick version: Good company, good foam. Their MATTRESSES (ie. m-grade foam plus base) - in my humble opinion - have too much soft foam on top of them - even the one with 2" of memory foam attached - because the memory foam is not of a high quality. But I think their basic 6" or 7" of M-Grade foam makes a nice CORE base for most people. I returned mine because I had bought the 2" of memory foam attached and because of that I did not like it. At that point I decided to get my money back but if I were going for a pure foam bed - without springs - I'd use the pure M-Grade foam only for a base. Good company, they gave me no hassles about my FULL refund. If you have any hassles ask to talk to Vlad. I think you're idea of a memory foam core and latex topper is a bad one. It MIGHT work for you, who knows. But my experience is that memory foam - of any quality - of the best quality - is too soft and non-supportive for all but the lightest and thinnest of people. If you're a person of average size and weight or overweight, it is too non-supportive, IMHO. The better way to go would be the M-Grade foam and then buy Sensus for your top layer - buy a 1" king at overstock.com, then cut it to the size you want (if necessary) and use the extra foam for pillows or ? You may want 2" so if you have a queen or king you'll have to buy 2 kings (same prices as twin or full...) and then layer them. Better to buy 2 x 1" so that you have the option of JUST one inch, OR two inches. As for why I did not like my Tempurpedic, it was just plain non-supportive after a few days. As to why I did not like my latex flobeds, (with memory foam on top sometimes and without it) I just did not like the FEEL of an all latex bed. Felt like it was "pushing back" too much, not letting my pressure points relax. Something like that... It's a personal thing. Some do like it. Many do. Some don't. This message was modified Sep 4, 2009 by jimsocal
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jimsocal wrote: ***Latex is the highest quality foam you can buy. There are 2 quality brands of latex: Talalay and Dunlop. Talalay feels bouncy and Dunlop feels hard and firm. Some prefer one and some prefer the other. Dunlop is getting a little harder to get but some places sell it and use it in their latex mattresses. Latex can be used for both a core or foundation, and as toppers, as it comes in various firmnesses which are referred to as ILD. A lower ILD is softer, a higher ILD is firmer. (There is a 3rd type of latex which is made in India or other exotic locations and thus has no real quality control to it. You may not really know what the ILD is because there is little or no quality control or standards, and it may not last as long as Talalay or Dunlop. That said, I like the feel of it and would consider buying it if I found it at a good price.) ***Memory foam is good for only the top half inch or no more than 2 inches. There are qualities of memory foam and usually the more dense memory foam, represented in pounds - such as 5lb density - is better because it gives more support. I recommend Sensus memory foam and Venus memory foam. If you look around on the net or in this forum you can find cheap deals on these. ***Omalon foam is antoher one that is getting increasingly hard to get but what it is, is a special type of polyurethane foam that is compressed to make it less bouncy and to break down more slowly because it's already "pre-broken down" so to speak. Some love it for a topper though for some it is too hard. A higher ild of it could make for a good core or foundation or lower layer in a mattress with various layers of foam. But finding it in ILD's above 24 is not easy.
But just to clarify: Talalay and Dunlop aren't "brands" they are manufacturing processes. That third kind of latex you refered to doesn't exist, but it's often called "Jungle Latex." It's actually just cheap Talalay or Dunlop manufactured overseas with little quality control. It's often so-called "natural" latex, or latex derived from rubber rather than synthetic or blended latex. It has a lot of impurites which causes it to break down faster than latex from companies with higher manufacturing standards. Memory Foam: No argument here--Foamex makes (or made since they are unfortunately no more) great MF, but me, personally, I prefer a 4lb foam. It's less temperature sensitive and has a faster recovery than Sensus, which some people might appreciate. I believe Foamex makes--or made-- a 4lb visco foam which I think is called Aerus or something close. Right now Overstock.com might be the best source for the Foamex line, although there has been some controversy as to whether they are selling "genuine" Foamex products. I heard something to the effect that Overstock was buying their foam from a manufacturer who had bought the rights to the Foamex processes. Whether this manufacturer is making them to Foamex standards has yet to be seen. Omalon got rave reviews from some of the Forum regulars who were fortunate enough to get their hands on it before Carpenter stopped making it. Waaaa... I really regret missing the last opportunity to get my hands on one of those toppers when JC Penney was closing them out. Oh well.... |
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Also, there is more of a difference than simple firmness levels between Dunlop and Talalay latex. Dunlop and Talalay are two completely different ways to make latex. One of the largest differences is that after immediately after pouring the Talalay latex has all the air sucked out and is flash-frozen before baking. Dunlop is simply poured and then baked. In the Dunlop process the latex particles have time to settle in the solution before hardening during the baking process. This causes an inconsistent density through the product and Dunlop will show lumps and dips long before Talalay. -Alex |
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jimsocal wrote: Vaphils, if you'd typed "M-Grade" or "overnight mattress" in the search engine... I think you'd find my posts all about Overnightmattress.com and M-grade foam... Here's the quick version: Good company, good foam. Their MATTRESSES (ie. m-grade foam plus base) - in my humble opinion - have too much soft foam on top of them - even the one with 2" of memory foam attached - because the memory foam is not of a high quality. But I think their basic 6" or 7" of M-Grade foam makes a nice CORE base for most people. I returned mine because I had bought the 2" of memory foam attached and because of that I did not like it. At that point I decided to get my money back but if I were going for a pure foam bed - without springs - I'd use the pure M-Grade foam only for a base. Good company, they gave me no hassles about my FULL refund. If you have any hassles ask to talk to Vlad. I think you're idea of a memory foam core and latex topper is a bad one. It MIGHT work for you, who knows. But my experience is that memory foam - of any quality - of the best quality - is too soft and non-supportive for all but the lightest and thinnest of people. If you're a person of average size and weight or overweight, it is too non-supportive, IMHO. The better way to go would be the M-Grade foam and then buy Sensus for your top layer - buy a 1" king at overstock.com, then cut it to the size you want (if necessary) and use the extra foam for pillows or ? You may want 2" so if you have a queen or king you'll have to buy 2 kings (same prices as twin or full...) and then layer them. Better to buy 2 x 1" so that you have the option of JUST one inch, OR two inches. As for why I did not like my Tempurpedic, it was just plain non-supportive after a few days. As to why I did not like my latex flobeds, (with memory foam on top sometimes and without it) I just did not like the FEEL of an all latex bed. Felt like it was "pushing back" too much, not letting my pressure points relax. Something like that... It's a personal thing. Some do like it. Many do. Some don't. Some great info in this thread guys, thanks. Jim, thanks for your response. So what you're saying is that you don't think a foam of any type (Lux nor M-Grade) would be better for a core than Latex? I'm about 185lbs and significant other is 145. I found this info from overnightmattress.com: " The M-Grade base support foam has a density of 2.1 lb and an ILD of 32." It's about $500 for a king (7 inches). What if I went with a denser base, such as LUX from foamdistributing.com, the density is 2.8lb for $244 (6 inches). Denser for about 1/2 the price? If it's not comfy, then I'm out a couple hundred bucks which I can live with. All in all, I really had my heart set on Latex for the top layers due to heat dissipation because I sleep really hot. I'm worried that Sensus may be too hot, and in addition I don't really like the "sinking" feeling of memory foam toppers... I think I'm just going to try latex and see how I like the "pushing back" effect like you said. |
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Vaphils wrote: Some great info in this thread guys, thanks. Jim, thanks for your response. So what you're saying is that you don't think a foam of any type (Lux nor M-Grade) would be better for a core than Latex? I'm about 185lbs and significant other is 145. I found this info from overnightmattress.com: " The M-Grade base support foam has a density of 2.1 lb and an ILD of 32." It's about $500 for a king (7 inches). What if I went with a denser base, such as LUX from foamdistributing.com, the density is 2.8lb for $244 (6 inches). Denser for about 1/2 the price? If it's not comfy, then I'm out a couple hundred bucks which I can live with. All in all, I really had my heart set on Latex for the top layers due to heat dissipation because I sleep really hot. I'm worried that Sensus may be too hot, and in addition I don't really like the "sinking" feeling of memory foam toppers... I think I'm just going to try latex and see how I like the "pushing back" effect like you said. Cloud9 and Alexander, thanks for contributing to this thread. I thought Talalay was both a process and a brand but I defer to your knowledge because I'm not a big latex guy. Though I DO plan to try some Dunlop at some point... Vaphils, I am not saying that I think M-Grade would not be better than latex, and I'm not at all familiar with Lux. Actually, I think if I were going to buy a foam core for a base right now (that is, without springs, so you'd need a thick core), I'd probably buy the M-Grade. 1) because it's cheapest 2) because I like the way it felt, in general and 3) because I have never liked latex. That is not to say I might not like latex again some day if I tried it, but when I did try it, I didn't like it as a core. I do like it as a soft topper or near-top layer however, and I've even used it a medium 3/4" on the bottom layer or near the bottom, which at times seems to add something nice to the mix. Cloud9, as far as which kind of memory foam to use I think it all depends on what a person likes. I think that for most people, using anything lower than 4lb is too soft, especially if you use more than something like an inch and a half of it. My wife is using 2" of the Sensus on top and I have tried it and - at least with my other mattress experiments - it has been too much mem. foam for me. I think it can work up to 2" but much more than that isn't going to work for most people, I don't think. Just my humble opinion. |
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cloud9 wrote: Jim, Excellent advice. Should be required reading for EVERYONE that joins the Forum to ask "What mattress should I buy?" But just to clarify: Talalay and Dunlop aren't "brands" they are manufacturing processes. That third kind of latex you refered to doesn't exist, but it's often called "Jungle Latex." It's actually just cheap Talalay or Dunlop manufactured overseas with little quality control. It's often so-called "natural" latex, or latex derived from rubber rather than synthetic or blended latex. It has a lot of impurites which causes it to break down faster than latex from companies with higher manufacturing standards. I added your clarification to my post above, noting that it is not a brand but a manufacturing process. I did not know exactly what jungle latex was. So it's basically just the same latex as here, only without the quality control? I thought some of it was made in a totally different manner, but I could be wrong. Weird. I layed down on a "jungle latex" mattress once - a 6" core, and I thought it felt much BETTER than Talalay or Dunlop. (it felt more LIKE Talalay, but less bouncy, but not so un-bouncy as to be Dunlop.) Whatever it was I liked it. But really, with just a quick try, who knows what I really felt? Maybe it did feel like Talalay but I just didn't know enough to determine that at the time... |
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Jim--can you be more specific in what you liked about the M-grade foam, and what you didn't like about the latex core? thanks so much! |
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electracat wrote: Jim--can you be more specific in what you liked about the M-grade foam, and what you didn't like about the latex core? thanks so much! I am not sure that I can. For one thing, it's been 6-7 years since I slept on a latex core. I've used a couple of latex 3/4" toppers, but nothing else lately. The M-grade was more recent and all I can say is that it felt better than my HR foam. It was similar to HR foam more than anything else, but - I don't know - different. Maybe a little spongier yet not spongey... that is, a little less firm to the feel, in an equal ILD... I'm just reaching. Not sure I can describe it. Very similar to HR but somehow a little better. Whereas, latex "pushes back" more. All foam (except memory foam, I'd say, or very very soft foam) pushes back. But latex pushes back the most of all foams, in my opinion. To me, I could not get comfortable with it because I could not "sink in" enough to relax on it. To me, a talalay core firm enough to provide support, is just too bouncy, too spring-ey. So what's the difference between spongey and springey?  I am defining spongey as soft but with support. I am defining springey as not really soft... supportive, but pushes back too much. I really think I've done a lousy job here. Sorry.  Overnightmattress has a full money back guarantee, so try it. To me, it was about the perfect foam core. If I had room to store it, I'd have kept it instead of sending it back. As it was, I wanted to try something else and did not have room to store it, so sent it back. (Remember that mine had the 2" of memory foam glued to one side, and that was too soft so I had to turn it over and sleep on the M-Grade side with the mem. foam on the bottom. I think a full 6" core of M-Grade would be better. But I think I'm a "spring guy", now, after experimenting with pure foam for most of 7 years. Last night I slept so much better on the Englander springs, but with my foams on top. Can't say it will last, in THIS configuration, but I'm betting that somehow a configuration of my foams with those springs is going to work! This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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Hi, I know you posted three years ago but I thought I would take a chance that you still come on here and I could ask some advice. I already posted on here 'Shorty' is the screen name. Long story short my husband and I received our new bed a Sealy pillow top bed on Saturday and it didn't feel as soft as we had layed on in the store. We were told it would take time to break in which we accepted. But first night on it and my back killed me and it's Tuesday and my back is worse than ever. No previous back problems but now my lower back is killing me, I feel depressed and sad and my mood is not good all to do with this new mattress and boxspring. We sadly didn't look at what our 15 year old bed was made of before ( it was my husbands before we married.) We thought as a treat we would get a new bed even though our old one was fine. Should I give it time to break and hopefully my back pain is very temorary as I was told it takes time to get use to a new bed. Or should I be looking for a new one and I have no idea what to look for, soft, hard, firm ? Any help and suport would be very much appreciated I am at a loss as to what to do. My husband said the bed to him is fine and he likes it but he knows i can't live with it if I continue to stay in pain! I think I read in your post you said do buy pillow top? Why is that? Help! |