Mattress Forum

What I would miss is the progressive support that comes from a softer latex over a slightly firmer one and I would also want the top a little softer. I do agree though that it does "average out" to about the same as mine but I doubt it would be as suitable for either me or my other half. I think she would have even more problems with it as a softer top was even more important to her than to me.

We did try a single slab of 28 and 32 ILD and they were both too firm for both of us without a softer topper.

Having said that the OMI with 25 over 25 (over of course 35 and 25) did feel very "plush" but part of that would have been the convoluted layer and the cover making it feel a little softer than 25. We liked it best in it's softest configuration.

It's sort of cool that I know now that one of the first mattresses we lay on and really liked is so close in a way to the one we ended up with :)

Maybe I should have stopped there and just duplicated the Terra ... but at that time I didn't even know that was really possible ... and I would have "missed out" on most of the research that I did.

Phoenix

Something I've begun to wish that mattress listings routinely put into their specs is mattress weight.  I think most of the online ones don't because they often build shipping into their price.  I really began thinking about it wondering how difficult some mattresses would be to flip frequently.   Mom likes her mattress flipped every time her sheets are changed and has enough stuff in her bedroom close to the bed (so she can reach it without having to get up) that one has to be able to keep control of a mattress when flipping it -- can't just flop it over so it lands generally on the bed.  And because of the size and shape, it can be harder to handle a mattress than to handle a smaller object of the same weight.  After I began wondering about weight, I began thinking that weight would be useful because in some instances in might be a useful indicator that there's something different in two mattresses with specs that seem similar.

As far as OMI relative to their competitors -- we're still considering other possibilities and welcome any and all suggestions -- and agree that OMI's price is probably higher than it should be.  At this point, if I did what I feel most inclined to do, I'd open Mom's spare mattress (she actually has two, bought at the same time, of the jello type she loved for years that I described originally), examine spare mattress's innards, order some supplement for the latex I think is in there, and close it up again.  I suspect I could make her a mattress she'd like as well as any we'd buy, and it would certainly be a better price.  However, considering the length of my Do Immediately #1, Do Immediately #2 and Do Immediately #3 lists, and that Mom is 86 and has rocks in her bed right now -- I don't think that's the way to go.  Plus I'm not sure of the quality of latex that's in the current mattresses, even if there is latex in there.  They were not inexpensive mattresses when purchased, but they have had a lot of "mileage" put on them. So it seemed that the best alternative would be to find a really good, flippable mattress that would make her comfortable right away.

I know that she'll be very unlikely to say she's unhappy with a new mattress or needs a different one, after we get something -- so a very high probability of quality is important.  I can't really judge by something like lying a new mattress myself, because a mattress she likes feels appallingly soft to me -- so I have to look at specs, reputation, and reports of soft bed folks.

As discussed in other threads, some criticize OMI -- as far as I can see, not so much on the grounds that what they say isn't true, as on the grounds that they at least imply that they are more unique than they are in order to justify higher prices.  That has a ring of truth -- and information about others who do what OMI does as well as OMI does or better is certainly welcome.  Even if we ultimately buy a Terra by OMI, alternative information will be useful to others -- and as I said, we've made no definite decision yet.

But another side of the discussion that I wonder about -- only wonder because I really know very little about the mattress industry -- is whether the "we're just as organic as OMI and the organic standards need to be defined" type arguments might also be driven by something not apparent.  As I recall, some years back, organic food was produced by small growers that took great pains -- in their own field being as particular as OMI allegedly is -- to make their products high quality and as safe as possible.  When the desire for organic food became mainstream enough that it began to really command higher prices, pressure arose to "define" organic food more precisely -- which turned out not so much to be in the interest of protecting the consumer as it was to enable larger producers to label foods as "organic" -- and raise their prices -- without the necessity of being as picky about production as the former smaller organic producers were.  The above oversimplifies the organic issue with regard to food -- and greatly oversimplifies with regard to OMI and organic production -- but I wonder whether there might not be an element of truth in it.

My impression of OMI is that, while they have their problems, they are more analogous to the early small producers of organic foods than they are to the giant "organic" ag producers.  They provide enough potentially refutable specifics about the measures they take to ensure quality -- which have not been publicly refuted -- that I'm inclined to think their claims are largely true.  While OMI may imply that they are unique, when they are not entirely so -- I suspect that it's true that they are enormously more careful and exacting in their standards than most of their competitors.  I recall a thread in this forum not long ago, when a manufacturer was angry about alleged misrepresentations of their product here, but when asked to correct the data, said "we do not release that information, contact us privately".  There are an awful lot of producers, I think, who grouse at suggestions that their product is not just as good as any other, but who are unwilling to use the obvious remedy -- to say exactly what components and what assembly techniques make their product worth buying.

While I think avoiding unnecessary chemicals is good, I'm not so much personally interested in OMI being "pure" and "organic" as I am in the increased quality control, compared to many manufacturers, that I think probably results from their attempts to be genuinely organic.  I suspect that competition may pull their price down somewhat -- but if so, I hope it is through others either becoming -- or demonstrating that they already are -- using the same care OMI does and offering a better priced product, rather than by large enitities (perhaps behind the scenes) redefining "organic" so that they can claim to be producing just as "organic" a product without having to take the same care.  Certification standards can be beneficial to the public -- but they can also be -- and sadly often are -- used instead as a tool to confuse consumers and to make it difficult for a small business to compete with a megabusiness, by defining the small business's good product as not different from the big business's sloppy one, or by setting complex certification standards that are unaffordable for a small business to meet, even though their product may be better than that of the megabusiness.

JLJ <~~ wondering whether getting a few dozen geese and beginning to collect for a big featherbed for Mom isn't the best solution

While latex is certainly an expensive material in comparison to other materials, it is not nearly as expensive as most people seem to think and in general it is hard to justify the cost of upper end mattresses (read expensive) that use automated manufacturing methods in general or buy "parts" from other suppliers, rebrand them as something else, and then assemble them with a story attached. This is why I like using smaller manufacturers where the supply chain is much smaller, who do put more personal care into what they produce, and whose story and "branding" is much more honest. Some smaller manufacturers though also "ride on" perception and "other people's pricing" and charge way too much for their products so a little research and a few phone calls are essential.

I wonder why if so many manufacturers can produce a good quality queen size 9" latex mattress with a good quality wool/cotton ticking that sells for around $1000 - $1400 (perhaps a little more for natural Talalay but not much), then what justifies the cost of a mattress that charges double or even triple that using the same or substantially the same materials and manufacturing methods. I would even pay more than that for a manufacturer that offered something that created greater value to me (in the ticking, construction methods etc) ... and would gladly go up in price if the value was there (hand built methods or even materials that use special more expensive processing methods) ... but in most cases it isn't. Most manufacturers use materials that are widely available under different "names" to anyone else and then attach a story to their name which doubles the cost. Most of these stories have "a little truth" but are at best spin and at worst completely untrue. Many manufacturers put more effort into perpetuating their story to justify their prices than they do in making their mattresses. We the consumer pay for this. Did you know for example that Simmons and Serta are owned by the same people and that they keep these two companies "separate" for primarily marketing reasons? The "big 3" is really the "big 2".

I was really surprised at how widely available good quality latex mattresses are in the price range I mentioned. I thought at first that "there must be something in their material or methods" that justified the higher prices of some ... but came to the conclusion after a lot of research that there really wasn't. This is just as true with all the materials used in mattresses. The suppliers of those materials are usually willing "accomplices" in the rebranding/story telling process and even sell their products with "ideas" of how to build a good story that creates perceived and "unique" value as opposed to real value. They too in most cases are more concerned with the margin of their customers (mattress manufacturers and retailers) than they are with the actual value of their product. I was a little surprised at how open they are about this in their marketing. Very few manufacturers differentiate themselves on differences that represent "true value".

Overall ... I think it would be fair to say I was rather "astounded" at what I have seen in my research travels ... and I don't get "astounded" so easily.

Phoenix

Going in this direction would also allow you to tailor a mattress to her unique preferences, makeup, and sleeping style to greater degrees than the Terra as well which would increase your odds of "getting it right". If not getting it "right" was a bigger concern to you, then going with a manufacturer that could offer comfort exchanges could reduce that risk to a greater degree than the Terra as well .... although wanting 2 sided does slightly limit your options here.

The one advantage you have is that in the size you are looking for, your outlay would be much less. I should probably mention as well though that in some cases smaller mattresses often have a different and firmer feel than the larger sizes. This could be true in the case of the Terra as it has quite a thick and "sturdy" ticking and I would say that the Terra is "on the borderline" of what your mom would perceive as soft (25 is usually seen as closer to medium in most cases) ... especially if her current mattress and what she is used to is even softer.

Phoenix

I feel reasonably sure that her current mattress is latex, but it doesn't have specs on the law tag.  The first thing we did in our mattress search was to email the company that made it a couple of times, asking about a new mattress like the one she has.  If they'd responded,they'd probably have had a quick sale.  Perhaps they felt shy about the lack of information on the law tags on the mattress she has.

We concluded that she did want a latex mattress, but one where we knew what was in it, and concluded that it wasn't possible to get such a thing locally.  The problem with the "mattress surgery" approach or the "order layers and custom create a mattress" approach are my limited time combined with her age and need for a good bed now -- and that we want something flippable.  We haven't excluded those entirely, but they offer considerable complications we'd rather avoid.

I have varying feelings about OMI -- sometimes I think going with their product is the thing to do, sometimes I reflect that I have experience with geese and they might offer a simpler approach to quality. Plus they're good watchbeasts and pretty fair weed pluckers ;]

I did get some probably accurate information about the current OMI ILDs -- similar to what you'd suggested, though not identical to the SLAB chart

N2 -- 20-24

N3 -- 25-28

N4 -- 30-34

N5 -- 36-42

I think -- though I'm not certain -- that they will customize with those layers, though they don't normally use N2 in most mattresses.

That would suggest, other than the defaults, possibilities of N4 (instead of N5), surrounded by N3 -- or all N3 -- or N3 surrounded by N2.  If Mom goes that route with a Terra, all she's sure about is that she wants the topper N3 in order to have the smooth/contoured side difference for greater flexibility.

JLJ

If you go here http://www.mygreenmattress.com/view_products/organicmattress.htm ... you will see some 2 sided mattresses that you can customize. The organic dreams is natural talalay in all layers and the Natural escape is a blended talalay core with natural on each side. I'd talked with him before and found him really helpful so I called him back today to ask some specific questions about your situation. He can customize the mattress pretty much any way you want. The standard soft is 24 24 24, and the medium is 24 28 24 (very similar to mine anda customized OMI in terms of ILD) quilted both sides (2 sided) manufactured mattress (no zipper). If you were willing to wait (about 3 weeks) he could also build it (he's a mattress manufacturer) to any specs you wanted that uses latex that LI makes so for example he could make softer around a 24 core.

Here's the best part though and what makes him different from other custom manufacturers (including the one who made my mattress). He charges $75 shipping. If you then decide that you need a comfort exchange and need it re-configured to something else ... he only charges $75 each way for a total of $150 to ship the mattress and have it remade and ship it back to you and he will arrange for pickup. He has a 90 day exchange period. This is different from any other custom manufacturer I know of and makes a comfort exchange for a whole mattress a realistic possibility at low cost. This was not a misquote as when I expressed my surprise and questioned it he well knew that the shipping was below cost and it was part of the service he offers.

He said to me too (told him about your circumstances) that if it was too soft (all the way through) it may lead to problems with your mom getting in and out of bed as she may sink in too far but if you thought it was appropriate he could even make it 14 all the way through (giving an example of what he could do ... not what was appropriate). Now that would be "beyond jello" (laughing)

His name is Tim and he is the owner. I would certainly call him as the mattress would represent a significant savings for a very similar construction and better after sale options.

I also called Latex International and they confirmed with me SLAB ratings are pretty much correct. LI tests for ILD on 6" cores (typical ILD is tested with 4" of material) after it is manufactured. They use a range since there is some variance in the natural material. They can even supply it in lower ILD's than that on their website because certain batches will end up outside the ranges. The softest N2 could go as low as 17 or in some cases even lower. She said that they needed to change their website description of the natural talatech which is listed in ILD instead of N ranges. They will also custom manufacture to certain ILD's for some manufacturers and this could lead to some softer natural latex being out there in larger quantities than they typically supply but they would be inside a mattress. So their natural could be as low as 17 (in rare cases even lower). One other thing that could be important is that the ILD of thinner layers will be much softer as it is much easier to compress a 4" layer only 1" than it is to compress a 6" layer 1.5" so how ILD is tested for by different manufacturers makes a difference. They test all their latex in all varieties the same way (on a 6" core) so it is a consistent test between products. This also means of course that a thinner layer in a mattress would be a lower ILD but because we sink in to differing amounts with different parts of our bodies, and because layer thickness and ILD is not the only factor which affects the qualities of a layer, ILD is only part of the story with both comfort and support.

Phoenix

JLJ

Phoenix

Transfermaster also has the standard width but they don't have the same range of height adjustment (they are 10 - 12" depending on model).

http://www.rotecbeds.com/client/page4.asp?page=1342&clef=986&clef2=247 Just came across this one looking for something else. It has 18" of travel and standard width as well.