Mattress Forum

Megalops,

Yes I said almost, becuase I know someone has done it with out chemicals, but I also know they only ones done without checmical treatments were priced well over $5k for queen sets.

If they are using wool then it is chemically treated and most likely with boric acid.. One of the few materials used in mattress that met the new fedearl regulations test was kevlar and it is very expensive.

Many mattresses who claim to be "Organic" say they use wool as the flame barrier. While wool would pass the old cigarette test for mattresses, it will not pass the new open flame test. These mattresses either use chemically treaded wool, another chemical system, or rely on chemically treated cotton batting (Boric Acid and Antimony) to pass the open flame test.

http://www.strobel.com/wool_burns.htm

I do have a sample of their cover, and I do work at a place with a metals lab. I can ask the lab manager if he can test it for me. I have no idea if they can or not, but I'll definitely ask.

Dave, thanks for the civil reply. I thought my original reply was perhaps a bit too harsh but I really do dislike the S brands - I have seen so much pure deception going on with them, I could write a short book about it. I feel your idea that it is because of their success that they are disliked is off the mark but you are entitled to your opinion, of course! And 99% of the time I am very courteous here, but I got a little hot under the collar re your "because of their success" comment, as if there are not thousands of other reasons why people don't like them and why this forum in particular has an anti-S Co bias, or at least used to when I was around here a lot... That said, I would probably buy an S brand such as Simmons or S&F just for their springs, then add my own foams on top. ;-D

So let's agree to disagree on  your statement that the S Co's are disliked "because of their success" - and no doubt others. But I appreciate your not being offended by my response and I will try not to be too antagonistic. It's good to have someone from the mattress industry here, though you have to have a thick skin because we've seen others come and go and some other posters here will no doubt be even less diplomatic than I was. Many here have been ripped off or feel ripped off by the S Co's and have been through one S Co bed after another to try to find a well made one. So you have to understand that's where many of us are coming from. When I first cut open my Sealy years ago I was appalled at the inches and inches of cheap crappy pu foam in it. Since then I have seen many others cut open with the same results: full of cheap crappy foam that too-soon causes back aches in many people.

I understand that in today's world of expensive advertising and rent and salaries and etc that S Co's have to make reasonably priced mattresses and that to keep the price point down they have to put cheap materials in it. But I can't help but feel they are still over-charging for those mattresses and that the mattresses - at any price - are not worth taking home in many cases. I personally tried about 5 middle-priced S Co mattresses before resorting to building my own from foams from a local foam warehouse and from latex from the internet. My advice for anyone who does want an S Co mattress - aside from buying the "firmer" models - is to buy the higher end models, never the cheap ones. (Unless you're just buying it for the springs and plan to do mattress surgery! ;-D In some cases you can get the same springs in lower priced models.)

Anyway, again I apologize if I was harsh in my response to your "because of their success" comment. ;-D    It's fun to "mix it up" a bit as long as no one resorts to name calling etc.!

As to the pillow tops, maybe the main difference is indeed in the quilting, but also you are usually getting MORE foam with the pillow top and since the foam you're getting is mostly cheap PU foam, that is the problem - it will break down quicker and 6" of cheap foam on top of your mattress is worse than 2" of it. Pillow tops, no matter how good they may feel when you first lay on them, will indeed break down and render your mattress useless. That's why I and others here have been recommending for years that people not get pillow tops and put their own latex (and/or good quality visco) on top instead. 

Sounds like you still work as a mattress salesman, no? Do you mind saying who you work for, that is, which company or store? I'm not sure what the Forum rule is on full disclosure. I think all that is required is to say you work in the industry, you don't have to be specific. Budgy also works in the industry and I know many of us are quite appreciative of the posts he contributes here!   - Jim

DaveStro wrote:

Here's a couple more links on wool: http://greenlivingqa.com/content/flame-retardants-mattesses-whi  

"Now, about that link, note that the photos show a single strand of wool burning. A single strand with a lot of air around it. Fire requires air to burn. I learned that building fires in my wood stove. A single match burns fine, but pile up pieces of wood with no air between them and they won't burn. So I'm not surprised that a single strand of wool yarn would burn like a candle wick. But in a mattress it is a layer of wool--complete different conditions."

And this one: http://www.surroundewe.com/WoolvsOther.asp#faq22

Though natural, untreated wool is scratchier than synthetic fabrics, wool is less susceptible to burning. The US Military, through extensive studies, use wool for uniforms and protective gear due to its natural resistant to fire.

"Wool burns with a self-extinguishing flame and produces a soft ash that dissipates and will not lodge in open wounds," says Jeanette M. Cardamone, a chemist at the ARS Eastern Regional Research Center in Wyndmoor, Pennsylvania. “Synthetic materials, on the other hand, form hot, molten beads that can drip into a wound and cause trauma.” (ERRC)

I'm not saying Strobel is incorrect, but I really have a hard time believing that they are correct, and that every mattress company who claims wool with no chemicals as their fire barrier is lying. Especially since a simple lab test could put each and every one of the businesses under, and expose them to massive lawsuits.

megalops, I agree with you and having been researching this for months I totally agree.  I still like the FloBeds, but when I go testing mattresses I can take my list and hopefully get some idea of price comparison for what is inside.  A few on my short list are similar.

This is why I am looking at latex mattresses - - NOT the S brands and this is why I was surprosed when i discovered that S&F had a latex that has cashmere in the cover etc/  I'm apparently more tired than I thought.   Yes I am aware that S&F is owned by Sealy - hard not too if searching on the web, but at least they give you a content list.   

I have nothing against them all - have been happy with Simmons for many years, but the times are changing and I would like to sleep.  I refuse polyfoam, period and have been appalled that manufacturers are allowed to say a latex bed even if ionly an inch. That's what's wrong with the S brands.

I am looking at several manufactureres who do not use boric acid and the wool is the flame barrier. Horray!  OMI, Englander, Natura, Southhard just to name a few.  Some do use boric acid, frankly I would prefer that to the unknown whatever it is and a fabric doused in formaldehyde. So I am going natural - one way or another.

If the weather works out we are going to test Englander, Natura, and OMI this weekend (yes OMI is short for 'Oh my - it's expensive') and I've tried Southard which uses wool.  I do know the difference between latex and plyfoam. The difference between organic cotton and just cotton, the difference between organic wool and just wool - - I won't have synthetic latex either.   I've got a discussion going with the retailer and covered exchange, returns, delivery - so far so good - they carry good products. 

My biggest concern at this point is whether I can stand the latex smell, there is a big difference in a small sample vs a bed.  

Thanks for those links. I've spent the past couple of evenings reading a bunch of stuff about the fire retardants in mattresses but hadn't read either of those pages. I did find a different site that countered some of Strobel's claims but lost track of it.

There is a whole lotta stuff out there on the 'Net, and I'm finding it difficult to find independent science -- that I can understand without a degree in chemistry -- and separate that out from various marketing claims and from the perhaps overly alarmist sites that equate the word "chemical" with "toxin."

I think I am more confused now than I was before. I'm now wondering, for instance:

• Are mass-produced mattresses made before the FR regulation went into effect in 2007 considered safe -- should I buy a friend's 10-year-old barely used guest-bed mattress? -- or are they dangerous because of PBDEs and other FRs that have since been, or are being, phased out?
   
• Are mass-produced mattresses made after 2007 more dangerous because of the newer FRs being used?
   
• If I go with an all-latex mattress and there's a fire, will that latex turn into a giant fireball* if it's not covered with enough wool? (I don't smoke, use a laptop in bed, or use space heaters, but things can happen anyway.)

Meanwhile, I do all this research while sitting at my 20-year-old desk, made of particle board covered with some sort of laminate, wondering how much formeldahyde I've breathed in over the years....

* Short video of small piece of natural latex igniting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbqm_5E6auM

 You suggest that we buy a simmons non pillow top mattress and then add latex toppers . It seems to me that if the underlying structure of the mattresses is collapsable because it is composed of polyeurethane , then won't the mattress soon sag even with the latex toppers ?

You can put lipstick on a pig....

I agree natural is the best way to go. Not all will use boric acid, but they will use one of the other toxic chemicals and there is no way around it currently. Formaldehyde is also used in poly foams as well.

Englander is a great brand as well and get their latex from Sri Lanka. Again it will be either a blended latex or Latex of top of a poly core, but they have been around for a very long time and have a very good reputation. I would have to say Englander is the better of the ones mentioned above from my experiance. Southards is also a blended synthetic latex. I couldnt believe on their innspring mattress prices usign an intro level 460 coil offset innerspring unit on queen sets from $2200 too $4400. I would say they are at the bottom of the list with the ones mentioned above.

100% natural latex really doesnt have much of any smell. The smell will come from the blended latex or the synthetic.
 

Davestro, if in the above statement you're referring to passing the CFR 1633 fire standards, please provide some proof to your statement. I find it very hard to believe that dozens of bedding manufacturers are blatantly lying to their customers in writing about something which can be easily proven by some simple lab tests.

If Strobel really believed the propaganda on its website, it would've already taken legal action against all these companies. There would be very nice civil lawsuits against them for trying to gain a competitive advantage by purposely misrepresenting their products. Business lawyers live for stuff like this, especially when it can be so easily proven, and especially when consumer health is involved.

I do like the fact that Strobel has tried to corner a portion of the market looking for a poison free mattress, but unfortunately they've gone too far by stating: "There are no natural, chemical free, or nontoxic systems that pass the severe open flame test." Their stunt of burning some wool yarn hardly proves the previous statement true. They're just trying to scare people into buying their mattresses.

Not Jim, but the suggestion is not just to not buy a pillowtop. It's to buy a good quality FIRM mattress with a mimimum of foam padding in the top, then add whatever topper you like. To me, this is the most sensible and economical (if economics are a concern) solution. I did just that, and am very happy with the results. Yes, my firm innerspring mattress will eventually sag but I will get much more wear out of it than I would a pillowtop that is nearly guaranteed to sag badly within months, leaving you with an expensive, useless bed that you need to either replace or perform surgery on.