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I'm trying to figure out a good configuration for latex layers to alleviate some lower back pain, and I'd love to get some feedback from forum members experienced with this kind of thing. I have no local access to latex components, so I'm basing this on what I've read from others on the forum. Our current mattress, the firmest we could find, began to sag and lose support shortly after we bought it. The addition of a 2" firm latex topper (and removal of PU foam) helped somewhat, but it appears the springs are the underlying problem. I wake up every morning with significant stiffness across my lower back and hips. We're in our mid-thirties. At 6', 170 lbs, I'm the largest. I generally prefer to sleep on my stomach/back, but with our current mattress stomach sleeping is painful, so I've become a back/side sleeper. My wife is predominantly a side sleeper, but she's also more or less unaffected by our current problem. I know we'll have to do some experimenting to get the right combination, but I'd really like to hear some suggestions about where to start. I already have 2" of firm from FBM. --Firm vs. extra firm core? --Do most people with overall firm mattresses still have some softer components? Ultimately I'm wondering which components I should begin shuffling around. Something like the following (although maybe not in that order)? wool pad This message was modified Sep 4, 2010 by a_bear
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a_bear wrote: It turns out part of the problem was that the pad I had on top of the topper was badly compressed. With it off there's still a bit of a dip, but it's not nearly as bad. What's the general view on this? If there's any dip should the springs be tossed? Is it a sign they're not long for the world? This is my first experience with springs, so I don't have a lot to go on. I'm wary of investing in their future if they're going to continue to steadily worsen.
If the springs are still usable, I could experiment with a 1" 40 ild topper instead of the 3" I'd been planning on (when I thought the springs would have to be tossed). But would 1" be enough to offset springs that feel too soft? There's also the 44 ild option. Right now, the combination of springs and 2" of 32 ild are too soft. Can you tell if the latex indeed feels like 32? FBM seems to have a varying degree of reliability of what they sell. |
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No, not visible. It's just something you can feel when you lay down. It's softer on the sides and firmer in the middle. This is the only latex I've owned, so I have no means for comparison. It's certainly a lot firmer than what came with the bed, but unfortunately I don't know what 32 ild should feel like. You might be right that I just need a firmer core. |
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a_bear wrote:
No, not visible. It's just something you can feel when you lay down. It's softer on the sides and firmer in the middle.
This is the only latex I've owned, so I have no means for comparison. It's certainly a lot firmer than what came with the bed, but unfortunately I don't know what 32 ild should feel like. You might be right that I just need a firmer core. Do they put extra support in the middle of a king bed (I have only dealt with queens)? If not, then it sounds like the springs have definitely lost something. The springs in the middle (assuming no extra support there) are probably close to the firmness was like when new (since they don't get used much), and the sides are broken in and less firm now. I have one further thought. What is the box spring like? Does that seem too soft? That could be part of the problem as well.
Budgy, if you are out there do you have any opinions on this? This message was modified Sep 7, 2010 by sandman
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Yes, there are two strong supports in the center. It's a very solid bed frame. You're right, the middle feels like it did when we bought it (and now I sleep there whenever I can). We opted to skip the box spring, assuming the slats would suffice. The mattress people didn't try to talk us out of it. Was that a mistake? As I said, in addition to being relatively new to latex and I'm also very new to spring mattresses. Little did we know the can of worms we were opening by buying our first "real" bed. |
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a_bear wrote: Yes, there are two strong supports in the center. It's a very solid bed frame.
You're right, the middle feels like it did when we bought it (and now I sleep there whenever I can). We opted to skip the box spring, assuming the slats would suffice. The mattress people didn't try to talk us out of it. Was that a mistake? As I said, in addition to being relatively new to latex and I'm also very new to spring mattresses. Little did we know the can of worms we were opening by buying our first "real" bed. It is pretty unusual to have an innerspring with no box spring. I am not sure what impact that might have. If anything, I would think it would be firmer, because a box spring has some give. I know they say a box spring increases the life of a mattress, but I always assumed that was marketing hype. Maybe something to it. So, you have a metal frame with center supports and wood slats (or are they metal?) going across horizontally about 3" apart? A picture would be helpful! How thick and sturdy are the slats? If those are sagging, that could be the problem. Not sure if that would happen over time, since they did not seem to be a problem when it was new. One test (a big hassle I know) would be to try the mattress directly on the floor. If it still seems to dip too much, then it probably is a lost cause. Frimer latex might help, but it seems to me that it should be firm enough with just 2" of 32 on the springs. For most of us that would be too firm. |
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Correct: metal frame, wooden horizontal slats 3" apart. The slats seem pretty sturdy and none of them appear to be sagging. The bed is the same age as the mattress. I'm posting a picture from below (please forgive the dust bunnies). I'll see if I can get the mattress on the floor later.
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That is helpful. They look pretty sturdy. If you push down on one of them does it give very much? It is possible that the structure of a box springs or platform helps distribute the weight so it doesn't sag. I am not enough of an engineer to figure that out. However, there may be a reason that they always have some height to them. If you had some help, maybe you could lie on it and someone else look underneath to see if the slats are dipping down. They might have to hold up a yardstick or something like that next to one of the middle slats to tell. Certainly the floor test would tell you for sure how much firmer it could be with a different platform/box spring. |
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Well that was a little exhausting, but worthwhile. I laid the mattress on the floor. The dip was a little less marked, I think. And it makes sense that it would be. The supports in the middle of the bed frame ensure that the mattress won't bend at all in the middle, even under our body weight, whereas the slats where we sleep naturally will, since they're not supported. That's what they're designed to do. So when I lay in the middle and think the mattress is firmer there that's because of the center supports. So, maybe my indictment of the springs was a little unfair. They definitely have lost some of their firmness, but the dip might not be as significant as I thought. And I guess it's an argument in favor of using a box spring on a slat bed. But in this case I suspect a box spring wouldn't solve the firmness problem. As you say, sandman, it might make the bed even softer. And it sounds like replacing the medium toppers I have with something firmer won't solve the spring softness problem either. Which brings me back to where I started. Sort of. I've been doing a bit more reading at some of the complete latex bed stores online. FSF mentions that people accustomed to futons tend to like to sleep on a firm top over an extra firm core. Given my preferences, Flobeds recommends a firm and extra firm combo. All of this has got me to wondering if the two medium pieces I have from FBM might ultimately be of no use to me. It's hard to know, though, because I don't entirely know what ILD the FBM pieces are. Maybe 32. For FSF, firm ranges from 29-34. If I have to buy all the pieces it would get expensive to DIY it. At SLAB, getting two 3" cores and 2" of something else will run us more than $1,600. Add a case and a mattress pad and we'll be at $2,000 (Foamsource, the only other place that seems to sell F & XF components charges even more). $2,000 is about what it costs to get a complete setup at Sleepez and FSF. Sleepez might actually be a little cheaper... This message was modified Sep 7, 2010 by a_bear
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a_bear wrote: Well that was a little exhausting, but worthwhile. I laid the mattress on the floor. The dip was a little less marked, I think. And it makes sense that it would be. The supports in the middle of the bed frame ensure that the mattress won't bend at all in the middle, even under our body weight, whereas the slats where we sleep naturally will, since they're not supported. That's what they're designed to do. So when I lay in the middle and think the mattress is firmer there that's because of the center supports.
So, maybe my indictment of the springs was a little unfair. They definitely have lost some of their firmness, but the dip might not be as significant as I thought. And I guess it's an argument in favor of using a box spring on a slat bed. But in this case I suspect a box spring wouldn't solve the firmness problem. As you say, sandman, it might make the bed even softer. And it sounds like replacing the medium toppers I have with something firmer won't solve the spring softness problem either. Which brings me back to where I started. Sort of. I've been doing a bit more reading at some of the complete latex bed stores online. Sleepez mentions somewhere (now I can't find it) that people accustomed to futons tend to like to sleep on a firm top over an extra firm core. Given my preferences, Flobeds recommends a firm and extra firm combo. All of this has got me to wondering if the two medium pieces I have from FBM might ultimately be of no use to me. Which means a DYI setup might not make as much sense financially, since I'd have to buy all the pieces. At SLAB, getting two 3" cores and 2" of something else will run us more than $1,600. Add a case and a mattress pad and we'll be at $2,000 (Foamsource, the only other place that seems to sell F & XF components charges even more). $2,000 is about what it costs to get a complete setup at Sleepez and FSF. Sleepez might actually be a little cheaper... FBM has a weird reputation for quality, so hard to say exactly what ILD you have. It is possible that it is something less. Does it feel pretty dense and somewhat firm (kind of hard tell really just buy squeezing unless you have a basis of comparison)? By the way, Flobeds firm is ~32ILD, so firm on top would in theory be like your FBM. Some here have used 3 3" layers of XF with the convoluted layer on top. It is possible that you like things firmer than just about anyone in this Forum. There is definite value in going the total package route: you get a wool filled cover, you can exchange layers to get the right fit, you can have each side different, you can return the whole thing if nothing works out. You still might need a foundation. Here is what the Flobeds one looks like. It is 3/4" fir and bolted on the sides. Are you slats bolted down? How thick are they? If they are not bolted they might sag slightly more because they can pull in a little from the sides . Yours also looks they might be thinner than 3/4", but hard to tell from the picture. |
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It felt really pretty soft. I can't see it working. I think all those futons have spoiled me for anything even remotely soft. Our slats are 1/2" or thereabouts. Not bolted but pretty firmly fixed in place with rubbery end-cap sleeves. Do the package beds require a separate mattress pad? I'm thinking most particularly of Sleepez, which has the firmness options I like, a good rep, and prices I can stomach (somewhat). At lot of them talk about wool in their descriptions of their covers, but I'm not sure if they expect you to use a pad in addition or if the cover suffices. FSF is one that prices pads separately. I'm wondering if I need to be adding $200 more for that to the package price. Given the uncertainty of the FBM pieces and my inexperience with latex, a returnable/swappable package is starting to look like a smarter approach, especially if the price difference isn't that great. |