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I'm trying to get on board the latex bandwaggon, though i keep ending back at square one- defaulting back to another sealy posturepedic firm that will surely crater again within a few years- if i can't arrive at a more confident decision about which latex mattress to buy. that they are sight unseen, off the internet, isn't helping. The conventional mattress I like, sealy's signature firm (or a s&f ultra firm), the springs are topped with more "marvelux" layers than anything else, but I hesitate to order raw conventional "lux" foam (assuming it's similar) to use as a base as you guys do for your d.i.y. projects, because I fear the stench. since latex ild's aren't very consistent when compared across vulcanization techniques, or even with the same process across different companies, I can't really depend on that as an objective measure. apparently no more reliable than terms like "natural" vs. "organic" vs. "botanical" in this industry. So I am looking for what anyone with experience would recommend in latex to someone who likes the very firmest conventional mattresses (they rarely even have them in the showroom, just up to cushion firm). You might wonder why I would consider latex at all in that case, but obviously the durability/longevity of latex would appeal to anyone, & I really did like the FEEL of the only latex models i tried (ashley house brand), only imagining if that same feel could be firmed up alot (assuming those are not opposing concepts). I like that springy feeling and consistent support, which makes me want to try a much firmer version of it. Of course ashley's pamphlet didn't list their ILD's, so I don't even know what my starting point is. b.t.w. ashley's is only a few inches of latex topper over conventional foam, so I might be liking all the conventional foam underneath more than anything, i just don't know. i have no experience with raw blocks of any type of foam. Supposedly the conventional spring mattresses I prefer are almost like sleeping on a carpeted floor ("comfort rating" of 2.5 on 1-10 scale), and maybe it is that way to someone alot lighter. But even the firmest ones give plenty under me. I just don't like to sink in THROUGH top layers, like with memory foam (eliminated), or any kind of pillowtops (obviously eliminated). My criteria: 1. FIrmest latex, as close to the level of the ultra firm conventional mattresses as possible. this has me looking to the brands that advertise 44 ild, but I don't know that the likes of foamorder's or sleep/bears' 44 ild's will necessarily be firmer than other brands with lower ratings. 1a. No smell/stench. apparently that will be as natural as possible, best washed, with the least chemicals- why the habitat botanical speel kind of sucked me in, but I've read too many reviews from big guys who bottom out on their 6" version, and that's their firmest. ild in mid 20's. 3. Price. i'm looking at the lower end brands here (even the conventional sealy signature firm set will be pushing my budget right now), but i am willing to splurge maybe a little more on what is becoming a medical necessity. I'm currently sleeping on the very edges of my sealy firm (still under "warranty"!) to keep my back supported well enough. but imagining what the markup is on these blocks of raw foam, maybe it is just a coincidence that the range of popular latex match the price structure of conventional mattresses. though i realize manufacturers' costs are irrelevant vs. what people are willing to pay for something. and either way, if it lasts longer than my innerspring mattresses, & if i sleep well on it, i'll try not to care what the markup is/ 4. quality outside of durability, firmness, & being odor free, I don't care about finish, imperfections in the foam (eg with dunlop vs. talalay) that i won't FEEL, what the foam looks like, beveling/faux fluting etc. carved into the edges, embroidery on the cover (though a heavy duty zipper & a cover that FITS would be nice). 5. simplicity. i'd rather not have to put together alot of loose components, especially not from different sellers or too much d.i.y. i'd rather not get the one whose layers you have to shuffle, rotate, flip every four months, & finding a cover that will fit a frankenbed without being too loose etc. but if i have to sacrifice any of these requirements, simplicity is my lowest priority. i have not ruled out getting as firm a 6" +core as i can find, then experimenting with toppers. if i KNEW the smell would go away, and that i could stomach it in the meantime, i'd just go for a block of that 55 ild hiqh quality conventional lux foam, and nice firm latex topper. finding a cover, even if I have to buy, try, & return a couple, wont' be as expensive or difficult as shipping a hundred pounds of FOAM (not even going to do that, which is another reason why i don't want to spend thousands on foam- what i buy, i'm keeping). Any suggestions or recommendations appreciated. |
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eagle2 wrote: Jason: Not fearing the thought police, let me suggest to you that you give FlowBeds a try. They can provide you with a super firm latex in blended, (only) from 42 to 46 ILD. I would think that 9" of this would feel like concrete to me. But never having slept on it, or even felt it, this is purely a guess. I am currently sleeping on one side of my bed that has two extra firm (36ILD) layers topped off with a medium layer (28 ILD) and of course the ever present to all FlowBeds, a 2" layer of convoluted latex, which I am assuming is somewhere between 26 and 28 ILD. The other side of my bed has two firm layers at 32 ILD with a bottom layer of extra firm at 36 ILD. This is all 100% natural botanically grown latex. The two firm layers, with a bottom layer of extra firm, seems quite firm to me, and I weigh between 210 and 215 ( going to have to go on a diet). The best part of the FloBeds operation is that not only do you have unlimited exchanges for 90 days, but within the 90 days, should you decide you don't like their bed, and they cannot provide you with the firmness layers that you feel you need, by paying the return shipping you can get your money back. There is no other manufacturer of mattresses on the Internet that has this kind of a generous exchange and return policy that I am aware of. Plus the fact that these people have been more than cooperative, they've been very pleasant about it in all my contacts with them. This is not to say that you would not have good customer service from other manufacturers. In fact the report is that in the majority of the cases there are several other companies that are excellent at customer service. They just do not have the same type of exchange and return policies that FloBeds has. So you pay your money, and you take your choice. Suit yourself. see that's the catch 22 for me- to get the super firm it must be blended latex, which per yours & others' advice is not my best bet for minimal odor (vs. 100% pure botanical). firmness & odor are 1 & 1a priorities for me. now maybe that's the only way to get a super firm anywhere, with a mid forites ILD, is for it to be blended. And while sleeping on concrete does not sound so great, i've also heard those analogies before/ For instance have you any experience with sealy's signature firm, or stearns & foster's ultra firm series? would you similarly guess those are like sleeping on a completely unyeilding surface also? because i've seen "comfort scales" that liken those to sleeping on the floor, and they might be to some, but feel far from that to me. it might just be too subjective a concept to relate on any kind of common ground on at all, & unfortunately i'm unlikely to find anyone who has tried both a sealy sign. firm & superfirm latex (until i just buy the latter). but anyway, if i go with a flobed i don't expect any problems considering all the rave reviews (of the product itself & their customer service). but hypothetically, if in the worst case scenario their firmest is not as firm as the marvelux i like in the conventionals, or if i'm that much more sensitive than the average customer that i can't deal with the odor even after 90 days of it airing out- how exactly does their return policy work? specifically: 1. do i pay for RETURN shipping only (not return + what it cost to ship to me also)? 2. is it packaged such that i can use the same box, get it back into the same shipping materials it came in? 3. is it a predetermined charge? eg with habitat, you apparently get your money back less only a $75 flat fee = total loss on the return (though i have ruled their 26ild 6 incher out of my options). All that flobeds' site states in regard to the above three questions is that "you pay only the freight", which could mean a number of things. but if you don't know those particular details about their return policy (& i wouldn't expect you to if you never had to use it), maybe i'll give them a call next week after they return from the holiday (maybe someone there could even compare their firmest to my conventional preference) . but either way, i really appreciate all your info, advice, & enthusiasm in this forum eagle. if i go latex, flobeds is definitely at the top of the list. thanks!
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KimberlyH wrote: . 1.Are you sure you need it that firm? 2.May I ask what is prompting you to fix on that number other than knowing you want a very firm mattress? 1. I am only sure that I need one as firm as a Sealy Posturepedic Signature Firm or Stearns & Foster Ultra Firm, which I sleep well on (when new). Even their Cushion Firm, only one level softer (& with a fourth the amount of marvelux as the firm), is too plush for me. 2. That is actually the crux of my opening question: a) the type of conventional beds I like are very firm, b) these type of beds have alot of marvelux above the springs, c) marvelux has a high ILD (40's to 50's? likened to a tennis shoe's midsole), d) a latex with a firmness as closely matching that my conv. mattress as possible would have a similar ild. THerefore, I am seeking latex with an ild in the 40's to 50's. unfortunately, c) & d) are massive assumptions, so I cannot trust my conclusion. the problem with c) is, i have yet to confirm the ILD of marvelux (only guesing by comparing to bulk foams of known ild's with similar "lux" names). & with assumption d)- even manufacturers admit ild's are not necessarily objectively comparable across different vulcanization technique, much less comparing with non latex foams. (marvelux vs. latex). so at this point, there's only so much I can find out until I either try a high ILD latex myself (having the knowledge of how my sealy feels), or find someone who has experience with both the highest ILD latex AND the firmest conventional mattresses. either way, i can't say you guys didn't do everything to help. i'll at least wait until next week, talk to flobeds about their return policy & frimness vs. marvelux. i appreciate your time. thank you. |
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Well I can at least address your return questions. My Flobed came in three boxes with the three core layers, the convoluted top layer, and the mattress cover spread out within those three boxes (which I have kept in case I want to return the mattress). Each layer comes individually wrapped in a double plastic bag. The outer plastic bag is smaller than the inner plastic bag, which is huge. If you want to return a layer, you: 1) fold the layer into thirds (like you might fold a piece of paper into thirds). 2) put the folded latex layer in the larger of the two plastic bags. 3) insert the hose of a vacuum cleaner into the bag so that the tip of the hose just slightly goes in between the layers - like 1/2" 4) tightly wrap the rest of the plastic bag around the vacuum cleaner hose. 5) turn on the vacuum cleaner. Now, all of the air will be sucked out of the plastic bag and from the latex. The whole thing shrinks to a fraction of its former size. (this is kind of neat). 6) keep the bag wrapped around the hose while you extract the hose from the latex and the bag so that air doesn't get back in. 7) place the shrink wrapped bag of latex into the second, smaller bag. 8) tape the second, smaller bag shut. There! the shrink wrapped latex layer is secured. 9) put this in the cardboard shipping box. 10) Flobeds sends you a return label and you just put it on the cardboard shipping box and drop it off at your local ups store. I wrote this out as 10 steps but it just takes a few minutes and is super easy. Just have your packing tape ready to tape shut the outer plastic bag and to tape the cardboard packing box shut. I have done this twice. First time, they accidentally sent me a king sized convoluted topper instead of queen and I sent back the topper (at their expense). The second tiem was a few days ago when I decided to trade a firm layer for an xtra firm layer. I don't know what the ups charge for a layer would be from texas to fort bragg, but from southern california to fort bragg, shipping one layer is around $20. A layer of latex weighs about 20 lbs. And, idk what size bed you are getting, but for my queen size bed, there are 7 pieces of latex total (3 for each side plus the topper) and the mattress cover. I think Flobeds has a . . . . price arrangement with UPS so that there is a price discount, but I'm not sure. I would check with Flobeds on the odor issue. I can't really speak to whether 100% botanically grown smells less than blended, but the Flobeds people will certainly know. Also, since Eagle has ordered a blended layer, he can maybe give us some insight too. |
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KimberlyH wrote: Well I can at least address your return questions. My Flobed came in three boxes with the three core layers, the convoluted top layer, and the mattress cover spread out within those three boxes (which I have kept in case I want to return the mattress). Each layer comes individually wrapped in a double plastic bag. The outer plastic bag is smaller than the inner plastic bag, which is huge. If you want to return a layer, you: 1) fold the layer into thirds (like you might fold a piece of paper into thirds). 2) put the folded latex layer in the larger of the two plastic bags. 3) insert the hose of a vacuum cleaner into the bag so that the tip of the hose just slightly goes in between the layers - like 1/2" 4) tightly wrap the rest of the plastic bag around the vacuum cleaner hose. 5) turn on the vacuum cleaner. Now, all of the air will be sucked out of the plastic bag and from the latex. The whole thing shrinks to a fraction of its former size. (this is kind of neat). 6) keep the bag wrapped around the hose while you extract the hose from the latex and the bag so that air doesn't get back in. 7) place the shrink wrapped bag of latex into the second, smaller bag. 8) tape the second, smaller bag shut. There! the shrink wrapped latex layer is secured. 9) put this in the cardboard shipping box. 10) Flobeds sends you a return label and you just put it on the cardboard shipping box and drop it off at your local ups store. I wrote this out as 10 steps but it just takes a few minutes and is super easy. Just have your packing tape ready to tape shut the outer plastic bag and to tape the cardboard packing box shut. I have done this twice. First time, they accidentally sent me a king sized convoluted topper instead of queen and I sent back the topper (at their expense). The second tiem was a few days ago when I decided to trade a firm layer for an xtra firm layer. I don't know what the ups charge for a layer would be from texas to fort bragg, but from southern california to fort bragg, shipping one layer is around $20. A layer of latex weighs about 20 lbs. And, idk what size bed you are getting, but for my queen size bed, there are 7 pieces of latex total (3 for each side plus the topper) and the mattress cover. I think Flobeds has a . . . . price arrangement with UPS so that there is a price discount, but I'm not sure. I would check with Flobeds on the odor issue. I can't really speak to whether 100% botanically grown smells less than blended, but the Flobeds people will certainly know. Also, since Eagle has ordered a blended layer, he can maybe give us some insight too.
i think it was eagle who already commented on the odor differences between botanical & blended, but i'll stay tuned for any further insights he has to offer in that regard (& of course i'll ask flobeds on monday). meanwhile i am working on some other options as backup plans. |
| Just wondering if you had a chat with Flobeds today, and if you saw Eagle's post today comparing the smell of his new blended latex layer to the 100% natural layers he has. |
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i read eagle's update, which just added to my confusion. he can't help the data, only records it. i appreciate his honesty anyway. so in the meantime i've been reading alot of JimS.C.'s posts, and am now considering something more radical. sending priority #5 now compeltely out the window obviously. i already know i get quality sleep on a firm spring mattresses0 in the short term,a nd the main reason i want to go latex is i hope it lasts longer than just a couple of years (& do actually like the feel of latex ive tried too). so working under the assumption that what gives out FIRST on spring mattresses are the comfort layers on top getting compressed, & that the springs will still be good for much longer, i'm thinking of either: 1. getting the cheapest spring bed i can find that has the heaviest guage hardest tempered steel springs possible, then immediately removing the cheap foam on top and replacing it w/lthe firmest latex layers available when it's still new like jim did (Basically still using springs as my core instead of a core of latx, & using latex on top). or 2. just buying yet another sealy/s&f ultra firm, that i already know works for me. which would be too expensive for me to immediately buy enough latex to "refill" it via surgery, so i would still have that as an option down the line when their marvelux layers get compressed. of course that's assuming the springs are not the weakest link (i;m not so sure, but will find out with my current p.p. before dumping it). mabye ill find something so obvious for the project- something with really heavy duty springs, that's cheap only because it has garbage for comfort layers, i'l go that route. so i'm looking to jim for advice on option #1. if i go with another quality spring mattress, i might try just having ONE modestly priced latex topper- which might prolong the life of the layers inside the mattress anyway, hopefully the springs too. so it will still be useable when i do surgery d.t.l. |
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I might've missed something here, but if you already own a mattress you liked before the foam gave out, the springs should still be good....why not just take that one apart and figure out what foam you like? Seems cheaper and you'll certainly learn a lot. I have found that I like offset coil springs the best of anything for the foundation of my mattress. I don't like all-foam mattresses, be it memory foam or latex or even PU foam. There is a special feel from the springs that just feels great to sleep on(for me). If you know what is broke, maybe just fix that part and call it good. Kait |
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Kait wrote: I might've missed something here, but if you already own a mattress you liked before the foam gave out, the springs should still be good....why not just take that one apart and figure out what foam you like? Seems cheaper and you'll certainly learn a lot. I have found that I like offset coil springs the best of anything for the foundation of my mattress. I don't like all-foam mattresses, be it memory foam or latex or even PU foam. There is a special feel from the springs that just feels great to sleep on(for me). If you know what is broke, maybe just fix that part and call it good. Kait because you're really paying attention (thanks). yeah i might open this one up for the learning experience, but will not invest in any replacement foam for it. because whatever i do i'm really wanting to upgrade from a full to at least a full-xl or queen if i can swing it. i've even had TWIN-xl i prefer over full. anyway, now i have coil type research ahead of me. i think i have interlocked springs right now, but will look into offset. i'm just glad i quit ignoring this "hybrid" option in time before going all foam latex, abandoning what's familiar completley. but this will be a PROJECT, & trying that costco 10 inch on sale is so simple & tempting. i'm certain it won't be firm enough, it's just so hard to deny because it's the lowest risk/hassle purchase, with absolutely 0 loss return among all foam options (for me). |
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Considering what you've said so far about the desired firmness of your mattress, the Costco bed will almost certainly be way too soft for you. Except for 3-4", there are some pretty soft layers in there - even for Dunop. Here is a quote from the product description: "Sleep Science Softness Scale – Soft/Medium on one side and Medium on the other" This message was modified Dec 2, 2009 by KimberlyH
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Hey, I was paying attention, how about that?! Anyway, the Signature line as I recall from all of my investigations, has the offset coils like mine does! As a matter of fact, the Signature line was the closest to the hotel bed I slept on that I loved. I think you are in the misery boat that only mattress surgery will solve. First, if you have a King, you don't have to do both sides at first(unless your partner is unhappy too...). I'd still open up the mattress(I used an Exacto knife)on three sides, leaving the head side intact. I cut right below the piping. A king is the size of two twins, so when I chose to experiment I got twin sized pieces(just wrestling with ONE king sized piece of 2" latex to try to return it was enough to convince me of that). I'm going to hazzard a guess that your foam is cheap P/U foam and it stopped performing where you sleep, hence the flat spot. Here's what I learned about foam from my foam guy: Foam is a medium that holds little air bubbles inside it, as the foam is used, the air bubbles are compressed, and they end up popping into adjoining bubbles, eventually becoming larger. The buoyancy of foam depends on these bubbles remaining intact...when the bubbles are burst the foam softens. THAT IS WHY YOU CAN HAVE FOAM THAT LOOK S AND FEELS JUST FINE TO YOUR HAND, BUT IT IS NOT SUPPORTIVE ANYMORE! I found that very important in my saddle equipment...poor horses are being ridden with foam as a pad, the rider thinks things are just fine, but the horse suffers needless pain. Anyway, the cheaper the foam, the quicker it can break down, so when it does your back knows it. The better foams take longer to die, maybe because the medium is more resistant to popping. I think that is why Latex lasts so long, it is a rubber medium, very stretchy. So, if you have good springs and I bet you do, you just have to remove the stuff that is in there and replace it with what you want to sleep on. If the mattress was okay for awhile, but then caved where you slept, the middle should still be okay, possibly cut that out and move it to one side? Or take some and go to a foam store or an upholstry shop, or somesuch and find what you need to replace it. Less is typically more. Where these bedmakers do us a disservice is by putting in too many inches of padding(foam) that breaks down and makes the bed unusable(aha! That's why bed surgery!). I don't think it is the springs that are bad, just the stupid foam. Don't be afraid of the bed. It cannot make it worse, it can only make it better. Forgot to mention, best tool for cutting the foam in/around the bed without hurting the other stuff: electric carving knife. Great tool. Use it all the time on foam. The foam in your mattress will be glued together, I used a butter knife to slice between it. Kait This message was modified Dec 2, 2009 by Kait
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