I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
I know I could do a search. I know I've done so before. Right now I am just soooo not in the mood to go back and look for and read latex info.  I want to buy 1" or 2" of Dunlop latex (because I've slept on Talalay and never Dunlop; want to try the Dunlop). Can someone remind me who has it cheapest? I know I investigated this 4-5 months ago but I have completely forgotten. I took all memory foam out of my mattress last night and slept better than I have in weeks. Still woke up with a sore back, but much better. The only other time I tried it without the memory foam was when I used 2 x 1" of my soft latex and I think that was too much soft foam for me. Now I'm back to 1" of soft latex without the memory foam and it's better, but I do guess that my HR foam has crapped out, so time to replace it with latex. What ILD do you recommend for my bottom layer(s) over my springs? When my bed was working for me, I only had 1" of HR foam over the springs so I am guessing that should do it with the latex as well. I think the ILD I used was about 32, so with Dunlop I might want to go with 28? or would that be too soft? (as I recall, Dunlop is naturally firmer than Talalay so you use a lower ILD, no?) Also, I'm not sure - maybe I can find this in my receipt somewhere - the HR foam might have been as high as 36ILD. I had 3 ILD's one firm, one medium and one very firm, and I used the medium sometimes and the firm sometimes, but don't recall the exact ILD's. This message was modified Jan 10, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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eagle2 wrote: Latexco, a Belgian company, that has two locations in the United States, one in California and one in Georgia, is one of the world's largest manufacturers of latex. It looks to me like they tend to emphasize Dunlop. But they definitely make quite a bit of blended Dunlop according to their website. I am going to give you a link to one of their websites and a page that gives some excellent definitions regarding density, ILD (hardness), and resiliency. It makes for some interesting reading. http://www.latexco.com/tested-quality/ Now THAT is interesting. Their California location, in Buena Park, is not *too* far from me - maybe 1.5 hours. I'll have to take a drive over there. Their latex looks interesting. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Budgy, I have a question re latex that I'd like your opinion on. I found this page at sleepez.com : (http://www.sleepez.com/latex-mattress-buyers-guide.htm ) for an interesting discussion of various types of latex and processing. I'd be curious as to your opinion of this page's info. Now: I was going to buy a Natural Dunlop 1" layer from them but I found a review that makes me wonder about the quality of their latex. I'm not asking you to comment on sleepez as a company but rather I'm curious as to how this could have happened. This is what I'm talking about: A member of this forum (who no longer seems to post here) bought some latex from Sleepez and then wrote a great review but then later had problems. (By the way Sleepez has now successfully addressed the complaint and made the clients happy. But there is no explanation as to what happened. This is the complaint they had: (this is found in the Review section under SleepEz) "our topper failed and is permanently compressed to less than half the 3" it is supposed to be (for the second time).[i.e.; they got one replacement and it did the same thing] I also explained that there are large, permanent, uncomfortable 1-1/2" to almost 2" deep divots in our bed (measured and photographed). We put the topper on a brand new Sealy Latex Weybridge with matching boxspring. ...They were kind enough to switch out our Medium/Soft ILD topper when the first failed, but we only found that the second one compressed down and did the same thing." This is what I am confused about: I have always heard that good quality latex does not get impressions, certainly not in a short time (they said, 3 months). If it was on a new mattress, I figure it certainly could have sunk down into the cheap foam or synthetic latex (?) on the Sealy Weybridge. However, am I right in thinking that the latex itself should not have compressed, had body indentations in 3 months? They further write in their review: "When you put your hands on top and undernearth the topper where you sleep, you can feel the how thin the topper is compared to the edges. We are not heavy people either, me being 135 and my husband 190. This is product failure..." Since I am considering buying from this company, I'm curious as to whether or not they may be selling "crappy" latex, latex that craps out after a short time. The one I was going to buy claims to be Natural Dunlop. I'm not sure which one this couple had trouble with, as far as I can see they never said exactly which latex they bought. ( tried to contact them to ask but have not received a response.) My question, then, is: Is it possible that some latex could permanently compress and have body indentations in 3-6 months time under people of normal weight? Should I be suspect that Sleepez' latex is not of a high quality? Could it be that even though it's natural latex with Dunlop processing, it is not good latex? Again, I am not asking you to comment on Sleepez specifically, but maybe you can comment on my general questions that the Sleepez complaint brings up: Can and does decent quality latex sometimes compress like they describe? Also, again, let me note that this complaint has been resolved by Sleepez. The customer writes: [We received] "an equitable solution to the problems with our latex topper. Our faith in a good, caring business has been restored. Thank you SleepEZ for fixing our problems." But they don't say HOW it was resolved, so I don't know if it was the fault of the latex or not. Sorry for this long question but I figured if I provided the details maybe you could get an idea what the problem might have been. Also if anyone has any personal experience with Sleepez latex, especially the Dunlop natural latex, I'd love to hear your review. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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budgy wrote: definitely some good reading. they are really about the only company I know of that makes blended dunlop latex, although they are pretty unspecific as to the ratio used. That much I would be curious to know. The bit about Hysteresis essentially confirms numerically the extra bounce of natural rubber as it absorbs less energy than their blended dunlop. It looks like to me that Latexco is Dunlop only. But they will blend it to almost any configuration. 80% natural +20% synthetic, and the reverse of that, and other ratios as well. I have no scientific proof for my feelings. But after sleeping on 100% natural botanically grown latex processed by the Talalay method, and trying out very briefly a piece of blended Talalay latex, 70% synthetic and 30% natural, I prefer the 100% natural botanically grown latex. I have laid upon, but never slept upon, a 100% natural Dunlop mattress of latex. This was not enough time to form any concrete conclusion. But from everything I have read I would think it would make a great support core for a latex mattress. It tends to be more dense due to the manufacturing process from what I have read. I have also played around a great deal with the samples I was sent from both Savvy Rest and FlowBeds, both Talalay and Dunlop samples. These small samples are a very poor way to test latex. But since that's all I had I came to the belief that Dunlop produced a much firmer feel. There has been some discussion about latex feeling "bouncy" and/or "jiggly". These are the types of subjective terms that can be very misleading to people seeking answers who have no experience with latex mattresses and are quite confused. I personally have never felt that my mattress was either bouncy or jiggly. I think people using these terms are expressing a feeling that they have acquired because all of their experiences have been with innerspring mattresses. The very fact that an innerspring, by its very nature, has steel springs at its core give it an entirely different and more substantial feel. Since I came from 20 years of waterbeds, latex mattresses had a very solid substantive feel to them. In fact, at first, they felt too hard when I first laid on them. This led me to try out latex that was too soft and caused me pain. This whole business about mattresses certainly proves the old adage true. You just have to try it for yourself, over an extended period of time, and see what works for you. I am quite please with my FlowBeds with its firm configuration. It has taken me 90 days to get to this conclusion, but I am satisfied. When you're spending this kind of money over the Internet it is certainly a relief to be able to say this. This message was modified Jan 12, 2010 by eagle2
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| >Realistically most Dunlop latex is 100% natural and most talalay latex available is a blend, this is the main reason why you would typically be right in assuming dunlop will be denser and usually is... Chances are if you laid on a piece of dunlop latex that felt really dead it was either 100% synthetic or just an incredibly high ILD natural content.> Budgy, thanks for your incredibly helpful post - this is a really clear explanation of how latex works and I'm finally starting to get a handle on all this. I was confused by one thing, the quoted statement above. I thought you said that almost all Dunlop is 100% natural, and 100% natural is more resilient and bouncier than synthetic, and most Talalay is blended synthetic/natural -- so why is it that most folks seem to report based on experience that Dunlop feels more 'dead' and flat, less springy than Talalay? I tried 100% natural Talalay and while it was immensely comfortable just lying on it, in the end it didn't work for me due to back pain. It was both too soft, leading to sinking in some areas, and too firm, pushing back against my shoulders and upper back and creating strain (this is across different ILDs). But I loved the other qualities of latex so would like to try Dunlop at some point. But if it is in fact even bouncier (assuming all natural, good quality, etc.), I'm worried it won't resolve these issues. Many thanks! I know you're getting bombarded with questions from all of us seeking the 'expert' perspective. :-) |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Eagle, I think what people are thinking of as "bouncy" is what Latexco calls resilience or elasticity. They measure that by dropping a steel ball on the foam to see how much it rebounds. Latex has the highest resiliency of the major foams. Memory foam has zero. I assume an innerspring has a low resilience as well, if you measured it the same way (more than memory foam though). So, people who have never experrienced latex before will tend to notice the extra resiliency. I know that I did. At first it might be a bit disconcerting, since tney are not use to it. http://www.latexco.com/tested-quality/ |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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okie dokie...good thing i had a day off from work today lol. I will try to my best to answer some of these new questions. cityskies: I feel it is a limited number of people you will find that think dunlop latex is deader feeling. It is also hard to compare without all the usual variables. I am gonna say trying my very best to compare apples to apples most customers find the mattresses in our showroom that use dunlop all the way through to be bouncier than ones that use some talalay on top of a dunlop core. The same is true in my house, I room with my brother who I also work with. My latex mattress is all naturally sourced rubber, 2" soft talalay on top of a 6" firm dunlop core, my brother also has an all natural latex mattress although the rubber comes from a private rubber plantation and it not mass produced on the same level that most latex is, it is 6" 'soft' dunlop on top of 2" very firm and dense dunlop bottom. His mattress is significantly more bouyant and springy than mine. eagle2: yeah it looks like they just use dunlop process. I could see that they may not have major consistency issues with an 80/20 blend however the closer they come to 50/50 the more glaring the inconsistencies will become. There has been also big strides in terms of improving the consistency of dunlop processed latex so its not that it would be always a bad thing to blend it. I can tell that you have definitely done a lot of research yourself, and you make a very good point about the bounciness, a lot of times it really depends on what you were previously used to. Everyone also has very different needs. I actually made the change to latex after having a really soft pocketcoil that was quite worn in after 8 years, I got the absolute softest latex mattress I could get (without polyurethane foam) and it was actually a LOT firmer than what I was used to. I slept great on it from day one, never woke up with back pain although I did on the old mattress quite regularly because even though I am only 24 I am also a competitive powerlifter and would regularly wake up very stiff on my old mattress. This being said I had a very hard time just falling asleep on my latex mattress when it was new I think simply because it felt very foreign to me. So you are also right on the mark that sometimes people will really need some time to truly test out their mattress once any change has been made to it. jimsocal: I definitely wouldn't read into one problem they had as an idea that Sleepez sells subpar product. The thing is they are not the manufacturer, they are simply re-selling raw cores from any one of their suppliers which is a fairly long list, Latexco, Latex international, Radium (never heard of them before), and Latex Green. Personally after reading their information page on latex which is incredibly favoured on the talalay process (also blended at that) I don't really know why they would even carry Latexco since they would much rather have people use latex international rubber based on their info. Especially when they are implying synthetic latex cells are 'stronger', based on all the info out there and even on the page eagle2 recently linked here shows that this is actually not the case. Anyway I personally haven't seen that type of body indentation in any quality of latex, it is normal for them to lose some loft, like maybe a half inch at the most in a 6" core. The important thing is they made it right for the customer. Probably impossible to tell what happened, maybe it was a bad batch of latex, this doesn't happen under normal circumstances. There was one interesting thing on their info page, saying that the moulds to make talalay latex are 10 times the cost as a dunlop mould....realistically I don't see how this can be, in any case the moulds are basically just an aluminum pincussion mould with the ability to make a vacuum for lower density latex whether it be talalay or dunlop....furthermore, as a business owner the cost of a machine should have little to do with the cost of the end product it makes. When you consider the idea that these companies are blowing latex out the doors of these facilities like hot cakes and selling them for good margin to mattress manufacturers, they would make enough latex in a one day shift to pay off the moulds. Talalay is slightly more money because they have to flash freeze the product, this does not substantially increase the cost of the mould, it increased the cost of the factory by adding in a powerful refrigeration system that takes a fair bit of juice to run. But in the end I would venture to say the extra electricity used to cool the latex would probably only add 5 dollars to cost of each sheet at the very most. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| Great info Budgy...as far as the few comments about bouncy being more noticeable for someone coming from a pocketcoil mattress to latex...I would just like to add, that I spent years sleeping on hard high density foam mattresses before the coils and I did recently try a LI blended Talalay (6" 36 ILD) with 1" soft (24?) layer on each side (which was close to perfect but needed a little more "cushion" for my taste as well as another one a year ago which I believe was a Natura (it was Canadian, I know for sure :) ) but my husband and I did not feel either of them had the spring of the natural Talalay I am trying now at all. So, in my case, anyway, I don't think I am coming to this bouncy conclusion from solely the change in bed types. Thanks. |
good guesses
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budgy wrote: There was one interesting thing on their info page, saying that the moulds to make talalay latex are 10 times the cost as a dunlop mould....realistically I don't see how this can be, in any case the moulds are basically just an aluminum pincussion mould with the ability to make a vacuum for lower density latex whether it be talalay or dunlop....furthermore, as a business owner the cost of a machine should have little to do with the cost of the end product it makes. When you consider the idea that these companies are blowing latex out the doors of these facilities like hot cakes and selling them for good margin to mattress manufacturers, they would make enough latex in a one day shift to pay off the moulds. Talalay is slightly more money because they have to flash freeze the product, this does not substantially increase the cost of the mould, it increased the cost of the factory by adding in a powerful refrigeration system that takes a fair bit of juice to run. But in the end I would venture to say the extra electricity used to cool the latex would probably only add 5 dollars to cost of each sheet at the very most. l.o.l. wow. The suppliers' impressive profit margins are likely a safe guess anyway. re: natural vs. synth/blend, even if it's not as bouncy right out of the gate, I'll be sure to look for natural from here on out for its durability. & that makes sense, if what the old sears' latex mattresses that lasted so long were, natural dunlop? Unfortunately before budgy had informed us otherwise (thanks again), i had read a report by SOMEONE here about his natural latex breaking in & getting softer faster by comparison. but have since discovered this guy kind of throws out alot of definitive statements, about alot of stuff, then later changes his mind w/o editing his old posts to the contrary! just not many 1st hand comparisons out there from neutral parties. But some of the posters above with their 3" toppers compressing by half, & getting divots in the middle of cores vs. at the edges etc.- well it's only a couple of weeks in & I am already certain "my spot" is less bouncy than the corners are. If it doesn't get too much worse in the meantime, I'm going to try another topper on it, in hopes the thinner top layer will absorb some, enough of my abuse to protect the core underneath a little. Pointless strategy in your opinion, budgy? Because i realize the core will still be compressing. it's just ironic that alone its feel is/was perfect for me (why the topper isn't even to change its comfort leve/ild per se). if it could only maintain that initial springy bouncy feel beyond a MONTH?! come on!
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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thinner sheets of latex will typically break in/down a little bit faster than a thicker core, much in the same way that shredded rubber pillows although very comfortable do not stay resilient for as long as a solid core pillow. Realistically I don't know if adding another piece on top will really prevent the core from breaking down as quickly, although it will certainly provide a buffer from the inconsistencies in the other piece (assuming the new piece is perfectly consistent). Just keep in mind that every single layer in your whole mattress has to absorb your full weight, when we lay on top of a mattress our weight is added to the total of the bed and every layer will absorb this mass in some function or another all the way down to the floor the bed is on. At best you can hope an additional layer to do is simply redistribute that weight over a slightly larger area. Hey TJ12, do you have any additional layers over your topper other than basically the sheets? I would imagine the closer you are to the rubber the more of that bounce someone will feel, especially a teeny person like yourself. If it was indeed a natural rubber bed from Natura they use a pretty copious amount of wool in the quilting layers in those beds, which can definitely hide that bounciness a little better for some people. I know myself I don't find them to be particularly bouncy. edit: forgot to mention, just on the note of the cost of processing. most talalay the freezing process is done using compressed CO2 which I would assume is even cheaper than refrigeration (only a couple places use that technique). This message was modified Jan 13, 2010 by budgy
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| It has the FloBeds 3" convoluted (egg crate) natural Talalay topper as one of the layers (3 cores plus the convoluted) and I was wondering about it being the culprit myself! I'm wondering if I went much firmer on the cores, then maybe it wouldn't feel as springy because I do like a cushy feel...just don't want to be too springy. It definitely got better when I put the XF core on the bottom (my husband, in a hurry, had put it on top as it was a temporary core until our VZone came in) which surprised me because I thought it would be less springy with the XF near the top. ...so now wondering if I need to go firmer on the other cores. (I know the firmnesses but haven't written down the ILD's so I need to check that.) It also has an organic wool and cotton cover over the cores as well as a 100% cotton mattress pad cover. |