Mattress Forum

phoenix, thanks for the bed maker references. i will look at them. don't know if they are this way, but most of the custom mattress makers i have found do not allow returns, which gives me second thoughts as one never knows how a bed will work, but i'm at the point where i might just have to purchase a non-refundable bed anyway. i've already lost hundreds of $ and still don't have a mattress.

linda, thanks for what worked for you and i believe that a firmer config would have worked for me as well, if i ever try latex again, which is a big 'if", that is what i would do. sort of once burned, twice shy on latex right now but may give it another try. first i have to recover from my months long latex wrestling match. that wore me out!

i'm looking for 2 things: a comfortable bed, and one that is reasonably non-toxic. hard to find, the non toxic especially. am currently sleeping on a doubled over fiber bed on top of a thin wool pad on top of an $18 cheap piece paper thin mushy piece of foam on top of a wood frame. believe it or not, even though it is not real comfortable, it still feels better on my back than the latex, so that tells me I need firmer. 

am still in the market for a mattress. would like to put an end to this soon, before it puts an end to me!

I am convinced that the whole belief system that surrounds the "firm/soft" idea has serious flaws in many cases ... particularly as it is usually applied. The idea that "firmer" means "more supportive" I think has led to as many back and pressure issues as the other way around. While this belief may hold true in regards to some of the materials that are used these days (particularly poly), I think that the choices that are available now do not require the same level of "tradeoffs" that most people believe are necessary to relieve both pain and pressure issues. Usually when someone feels pain in their lower back ... the automatic assumption is "I need firmer". I do not believe this is always the case ... especially with relatively high resilience materials such as latex.

Rather than thinking in terms of "support" which too easily is mistaken for firmness in the comfort layers, why not think in terms of "spinal alignment"? I believe that if someone was fully aligned 4" deep into a mattress that it would provide the same benefits as being fully aligned 1" into the mattress. This is of course assuming that in both cases that there was also support in the "recessed areas" of the body. Someone who is only "supported" at certain "points" of the mattress (hips for example) may be actually lacking the proper support in the more recessed areas (waist or small of the back for example) and end up with back pain caused by the misalignment created by too firm a mattress. I believe that true support comes from a mattress' ability to allow BOTH enough sinking in to distribute pressure AND enough resistance and/or pushback to create proper spinal alinment in all sleeping positions. In other words the perfect mattress would evenly distribute pressure (solve pressure issues) at the exact "sinking in depth" of each part of the body that would also lead to perfect alignment in all sleeping positions.

This combination of pressure distribution and correct alignment is created by a COMBINATION of ild, support factor, and resilience of both the materials used and the mattress as a whole. In the case of latex (and other materials), this combination is "built in" to the material itself. In the case of a spring/stuffing mattress, this combination comes from a combination of materials (the springs or underlying support layers "push back" through the comfort layers as the more passive stuffing of the comfort layers has little resilience on its own). I believe that this is why a mattress with "stuffing" needs some degree of body impression combined with the correct resilience of an innerspring to accomplish this combination of "even pressure distribution" and "evenly distributed support" at the correct depth (proper spinal alignment). This combination is also dependent on the "progressive resilience" qualities of a material and/or mattress as a whole. In other words the "pushback" increases with depth to different degrees in different materials and/or combinations and it is this "response curve" that leads to the "range" of correct alignment and pressure relief that can provide pressure relief and alignment in different sleeping positions.

One of the issues rarely discussed in connection to this is body proportion. Someone with a more extreme difference between their hip measurements, waist measurement, and shoulder measurement (some points of the body "stick out" much more than others in certain positions) would need to be able to sink into a mattress more than someone who had a more "straight line" set of measurements to create even support in the correct position. This would also be important in connection with the percentage of body weight that was pressing down on each "point" (hips usually carry the greatest percentage of body weight). In most people, the shoulders are the widest part of the body but they carry much less weight than the hips. This means they usually need to sink in more than the hips (speaking of side sleeping here) before the mattress materials and/or construction "stops" the sinking in process for both hips and shoulder at the proper depth for each to create alignment while "pushing back" on the thinner parts for support. This can be accomplished though the ild/support factor/resilience qualities of a material such as latex or by the mattress construction as a whole. If the "response curve" of a mattress material or construction doesn't provide a big enough "range" for a particular person, then zoning of course can be used to accomplish this. Typical zoning however may not be enough in these more extreme circumstances as the difference in zones if often quite small. In this case, "constructed zoning" as opposed to "built in zoning" may be needed.

One of the people who understands/believes this is here http://www.customsleepdesign.com/

While he is by no means the only one who I talked to that understood/believed this and also incorporated it into "mattress building", he is one of the few that is also using a "layered process" with a zip cover and has layer exchanges and where these ideas (and a detailed analysis of body shape/weight) are a fundamental part of how he builds a mattress. I have mentioned him before in previous links and he is the one that used to be a VP of Latex International so he knows his latex.

I had an interesting experience last night to illustrate some of this. I went to bed quite late and was very tired and was laying on my side just "letting go" and falling asleep. While I was laying there, I noticed something I had never noticed before and that was that I could feel the mattress "pushing back" on my waist while I was completely relaxed (using a relaxation technique). It was a very unusual feeling as I couldn't remember ever having felt anything quite like it to that degree before and yet there was absolutely no pressure on my hips (which I am sensitive to). Part of why I chose a softer mattress was because both of us have quite a "differential" between our hip/waist/shoulder measurements and that a firmer mattress could too easily cause both pressure issues ... and areas where there was not enough resilience in the mattress to "evenly support" along the length of our body at the correct spinal alignment.

So to summarize ... with the choices available today (different types of materials ... including a wider range of latex materials ...and innersprings with a wider range of qualities), conventional wisdom and beliefs which at one time may have been more valid and even originated from the "limitations" of mattress construction may not be quite so valid anymore.

Phoenix

The fundamental difference between materials (besides durability or their ability to maintain their qualities) is in the combination of their ild (softness), their resilience (ability to push back), and their "support factor" (how progressively resistance changes as you sink in deeper into a "layer"). All of these combined are what I am calling "response curve"

Memory foam for example can have exactly the same ild as a soft latex ... but it's other qualities are VERY different. It will "keep sinking" more in response to body heat/pressure when other materials that are not as sensitive to heat will "stop the sinking in process" ... and it's ability to push back is very limited. This is why it requires layers underneath that are BOTH a higher ild and have higher resilience and support factor not dependent on heat/pressure. What is not generally recognized in all the hype is that "memory foam" and latex (and even other "man made materials") are very similar in their abilities to distribute and relieve pressure to levels below the threshold of individual detection. They are very different in their ability to do this in combination with other desireable qualities of a material and/or mattress construction ... and in their ability to keep doing this over time.

Horsehair as a "stuffing" has more "resilience" than other stuffing materials and so could add to the "pushback" from the springs to some degree without requiring the same degree of body impression to provide even pressure relief. This quality (and others) made it "desireable".

Thinner layers are more dependent on the qualities (not just firmness/softness) of the layer beneath than thicker layers. One is not better than another ... they are just different pathways to a "goal".

Layers of materials (such as 3 one inch layers of a specific ild of latex) have different overall qualities than a single layer of the same material. This is even more true if the layers are "loose" as opposed to bonded together. Again, one is not "better" than another ... they are just different. Both constructions are used to accomplish certain ends.

I believe that once a person has an idea of the "why" behind some of the beliefs that are out there, then they are in a much better position to find their "perfect mattress" without assigning too many generalizations to the process (believing "I need firmer or softer" or believing that a certain material "doesn't work" in any of its variations).

Of course if someone finds a perfect mattress through personal experience (laying on it for enough time and/or nights to truly know that it "works"), then the only thing that is really important to know is how long will the materials that are responsible for this "perfection" really keep their qualities. It would also be important to know in this case how a material changes over a relatively shorter time (either "breaks in" to improve your experience or "breaks down" to detract from it).

For more and more of us though where the internet and research is playing a bigger role, and where materials more commonly used in mattresses break down more easily, this kind of information and research has become much more important in our individual search for "sleep heaven".

Phoenix

Of course there are other considerations to take into account when purchasing a mattress than the few I have mentioned in the last two posts. Some of these are subjective and some of these are objective.

Some of these issues include the more subjective feeling that comes from sleeping "in" a mattress or sleeping "on" a mattress (assuming they both have a good combination of pressure relief  and spinal alignment). This feeling in many cases has to do with the ability to change positions (more objective) and the feeling of "freedom" and "space" (more subjective) that is important to each person. This is also connected to heat issues ("in" is generally hotter and "on" is generally cooler depending also on materials of course) and breathability issues (both in the objective quality of materials used and the subjective perception of an individual). In the same way that some people need more space than others, some people like to be cradled more than others. In the same way some people are more "hugging" and physical closeness type of people, some need more space and distance and less physical contact. This of course is also connected to motion transference and its different levels of importance to different people.

Another very important consideration to some people is the level of "naturalness" in a material. Some of this is about offgassing and physical harm that may be caused by some materials (more objective) and also about the peace of mind that comes from knowing that they are more in harmony with their environment (more subjective).

What is even more interesting is how peoples' feelings and beliefs ABOUT their mattress (or anything else) can contribute to their ability to sleep well. This is very connected to what has been called "the placebo effect". There is a great deal of research now being done (and this is a field I have been very involved with on a professional level) that indicates very clearly that this effect is much more objective than was previously thought and that it's "imaginary" qualities are not so imaginary after all. There are also many more indications that this effect is not only caused by the effect of people's minds on their biochemical processes (as in positive thinking or belief releases beneficial biochemicals that help in certain "conditions") but that there are other more "objective" processes involved. The whole "placebo effect" is being completely re-evaluated as to what it really is and how it can be utilized in different ways. Subjectivity in other words is a much more objective process than was previously thought and is not simply about the effect of certain beliefs/thoughts/perceptions on biochemical or other individual physical processes and experiences.

What this means in terms of a mattress is that how people feel about what is in their mattress, why they chose it, and what they believe are the beneficial qualities of these materials for them, can lead to REAL differences in the perception of comfort and support and in the ability to sleep deeply, healthfully, and restfully, even outside of the objective qualities of the materials and/or construction of the mattress itself.

This is one of many fascinating areas of research that is of course directly leading to changing ideas in many areas of our experience and wellbeing ... most of them outside the scope of this forum (smiling).

Phoenix

Two other important variables are feel and temperature.  Some people love to sink in, some hate it.  So, it is possible to have the spine and weight distribution pretty good, but you still might not be happy with the overall feel. 

The use of materials and softness also affect the temperature.  Changing things to deal with that affects the other variables. 

So, it is very complicated to get it "right", and there are infinite combinations.  Fortunately, most people have a range in which they can sleep okay.

I notice that you have gone to an approach that has a lot of depth in soft/medium to medium firmness.   You are not using anything real soft (below 20) or real firm (above 30).  That is an approach that most have not tried.  I wonder if it would work for more people? 

I would also note that there is a wide variety in memory foam, and little data on how they perform.  That is one thing nice about latex - it is more uniform and easier to know the characterstics (if you stay with the major producers).

I believe that this is part of the reason why there are many people who are happy with just a single core of latex wrapped with cottton/wool or similar. In these cases the qualities of the single layer itself have a wide enough range and "response curve"  to provide both comfort and support in all their sleeping positions without any layering required. It is also part of the reason that I chose the layers that I did (in terms of ild, thickness, and natural/blended) and why they were both so close together even though it is far less common.

Phoenix

Yes, I agree that spinal alignment is important. I noticed on some of the latex layer combos I tried that my spine was not straight, and with others, it was. (took pictures, used a yardstick, and kept a diary sad to say in my quest to find the perfect latex config) However, surprisingly, it turned out that spinal alignment was not necessarily an indicator of whether the configuration would hurt my spine or not.

My old spring air backsupporter was the perfect fit, because of the zoning, supportiveness and comfort, not only for me, but for anyone else that slept on it. We had 2, one in the guest room, and guests, male, female, old, young, .... would invariably comment "that is the most comfortable bed I have ever slept on." It not only felt great from the first moment I laid on it, it actually made one feel better.  Hence my search to find out what the specs were for that old bed, to perhaps have a custom bed maker try to duplicate it.  Barring that, I'm starting from scratch to find something else.

Mattresses are such an individual thing, but I do think that there are some basic qualities that most, but not all,  people would agree are comfortable or not, and then we have our individual preferences. The spouse and I both experienced that one mattress we tried felt like sleeping on rocks, and one hurt our backs. Latex may not be for everyone, although to me, they feel heavenly in the mattress store, but over time, say a full night, I am very aware of the push back effect and feel like it is annoying. Also tried putting regular pu foam, a fiber bed or a wool pad on top.

It is sad that I have had more luck sleeping on the floor than on any of the mattresses I have tried recently. I didn't want to get a PhD in mattresses when I first went looking for a new mattress, but I never dreamed it would be this difficult. At this point, I just want a bed that doesn't make me feel worse than I did when I went to sleep.

You made a few very interesting comments in your post which may be clues as to the "why" behind the what. As you mentioned, what we sleep on has so many variables involved that it is sometimes almost impossible (without the use of "luck" which is another interesting discussion) to get it right using only objective methods. All the yardsticks and pictures in the world can't deal with every one of these (smiling). It may be true that you can increase your odds ... sometimes even dramatically ... by including methods like this but there are also people like yourself and others where what "usually works" for a larger majority doesn't work individually.

The first clue in your post was that you were "more comfortable" sleeping on the floor. I know you didn't mean this was your ideal but that it was true in comparison to the "other beds" you have tried. The clue here is that possibly "range of movement" ... in combination with other factors is an important part of your perfect bed. The floor and innersprings both do not allow as great a range of movement (in up or down terms) as latex and for some this could very well be an issue. What I mean here is that while latex may allow for a much greater range of positions in which you are "aligned", for some this range and the spinal flex that this "allows for" may be an issue in itself more important than actual alignment. If someone's back for instance was "less flexible" than most or for any reason was more sensitive to "change" than "alignment", the greater range of "change" allowed by latex, while a benefit to most, may be a detriment to these people. This change would not just happen when someone changed positions but also when any movement caused part of the body to "try" to sink in more. The greater flex allowed for by latex may also have a cumulative effect over the course of a night (in the same way that bending in a certain way once may be no problem but doing it many times may lead to problems)

The second clue was that you mentioned that everyone that slept on the spring air made the same comments. It is unlikely that it was objectively perfect for every one of them or even would have been a perfect choice for most of them in the long term and yet the feedback seemed to say something different. This is similar to comments often heard about certain hotel beds and how "perfect" they are in comparison to what some people are used to sleeping on. This may be partly connected with the mattress itself of course (and almost certainly is) but it may also be saying as much about you and the environment you have created for your guests as it says about the bed itself. This is connected to my third post about subjective factors and their effect on objective factors.

Part of the "joy of living" (laughing) is that every one of us to differing degrees sees patterns where others (and even most) don't, or doesn't see patterns where others (and even most) do. This is an important part of individuality and the individual/environmental interaction that leads to creativity and unique expression. When what we see, experience, or believe falls "out of the norm" many of us have little trust in our own perceptions and give more credit and "power" to consensus thinking than we do to our own unique experience.

In short, my heart goes out to you because no matter what the reason you haven't yet found the mate to the spring air, what is clear is that you trust your own perceptions enough to know that what you are looking for is important. Once you find the quality that is the primary underlying "why" for you ... your search may become much easier ... but finding the underlying why is not always so easy ... and can take you far afield in some cases (smiling). This journey "far afield" may end up being just as important as the outcome itself.

Phoenix

I agree that firm is not necessarily better. Too firm beds can be uncomfortable too. The reason why I thought I would need firmer was that softer didn't work either. One of my original configs was ild's between 20 and 30 as well, wish it had worked but didn't.

I'm not looking for the perfect mattress at this point, just one that doesn't cause pain. I've given up on perfect. For someone who doesn't suffer from back pain to acquire back pain from a mattress, is unacceptable and unnecesary.....but that has been my experience so far.

To  your point about patterns, I am learning specifically what it is that I like, just can't find it yet.  

To read mattress reviews on the web, it seems that most beds today are pretty shoddy, they are made to only last a few years and as many folks have found out, sometimes don't even last a few weeks. Mattress makers don't want folks out of the market for 20 years anymore, like with the older 2 sided beds. They want you to have to replace your bed often. Not sure how old you might be, but bed buying used to take about 5 minutes. And were far more comfortable than the mattresses today. 

So I am trying to learn exactly what the differences were.... different construction methods????etc. It seems to be the consensus on this forum that cheap foam is one of the differences between then and now, and that is certainly the case. There were surely some other variables that  were important as well. Hand tying, different ways of attaching the layers to the springs?  I'd love to hone in on what exactly made the old ones different (and better!) than the new. If there are any old mattress makers on the board, love to hear from you!

As far as the latex experiment, I've had latex pillows for years and LOVE them, which is why I thought a latex bed would be wonderful.  Your idea of the amount of flex is an interesting one and definitely something for me to consider.  I appreciate your ideas...

The idea was to use an "innerspring insulator" type of material in between two top layers of latex (which was both giving and firmer) to sort of help someone "sink in with a wider/shallower curve" in the deeper layers. In theory it would make the latex a little more like an innerspring which has a shallower "response curve". Since innerspring insulators seem hard to find for sale, I looked at other options similar to some of the weaves you can find here http://www.sisalcarpet.com/viewcategory.php?tag=Premium-Sisal

These ones look a little expensive (although the seagrass is only about $25 / yard which would be under $100 for a queen size) but you get the idea.

With the shallower sinking in curve, the more pointed parts of the body wouldn't sink in quite as much or as "point specifically" and reduce the amount of "change in curvature" in the spine but you would keep most of the benefits of latex in both the upper and lower layers.

So the "setup" would have something like 3" of latex over the insulator over one or two more layers of latex. Different materials and thicknesses could provide either more or less "give" and firmness but it seemed to me it could be another way to "customize" a mattress with thin woven layers for a specific need or application. Of course a thin (say one inch or less) layer of ultra firm latex as the second layer (or even something like rubberized coir or a dense wool puddle pad) would also accomplish something similar but probably not to the same degree.

I wonder if anyone has played with this and what their experiences were like. It certainly made me curious about how it could change the qualities of a latex mattress and if it would make any difference in situations such as yours.

Phoenix