Mattress Forum

Okay, I can see the reasons behind going both firmer and softer.  The 2.5" Aerus seemed like less hip and shoulder pain, but more back pain (probably from sinking in too much).  Conversely, the 2" of 21 ILD resulted in only hip and shoulder pain, with no back pain.  Also, the surface below is a "Cushion Firm" from Original Mattress Factory, and it's pretty firm.  I think the coils are 12 3/4 guage, so there's not much give there.  I see the logic behind going up to 3 inches, but would really like to avoid having $600 - 700 invested in latex if at all possible.  Since MF is out of the question, I'm thinking of using up to 2" of latex, and perhaps a different topper like wool, or cheaper foam. 

I think I will keep the 1" of 21 ILD, as you guys have pointed out that it should be useful in some form or fashion.  As always, I'm open for any and all advice.

Thanks Phoenix, I think I follow you here.  My gut feeling is that I was sinking through the 2" or 21 ILD, and onto the firm mattress, and that's what caused the shoulder and hip pain.  Since I'm using an E. King, I managed to fold the 1" of 21 ILD into 3" by trifolding it.  I tried this configuration (3" of 21 ILD) out last night and I was pleasantly suprised at how well I slept and how comfortable it was.  I did wake up with a small amount of lower back/muscle soreness, however, it went away after getting up.  I also slept a few hours longer last night because I couldn't sleep at all the night before, but I didn't have any shoulder or hip pain.

I will try this out for a couple more nights to make sure, but I think I'm going to need 2 - 3 inches of latex in total - would you agree?

I guess the question I have now is, could the back pain be linked to the latex being slightly too soft?  I feel like the hip and shoulder pain issue has been resolved by using 3" of latex, but now I'm wondering If I need to use a 1" base layer of firmer (24 - 28 ILD) below  2" of 19 - 21 ILD to aleviate the back pain?

Sounds like you are making some progress.  I think you do need 3".  If you are having back pain with the 3" of 21, but not shoulder/hip problems, then you probably should have at least 1" firmer.  I don't think 24 is enough of a difference, so I would suggest adding 1" of 28.   Then you could try folding that piece for a while and/or the 21 piece for a while to see which works better as the 3rd inch.  That means you would have to end up with 3 1" pieces.  I think that is okay, but it might bother some. 

By the way, I think if you back to SLAB and tell them that 1" was not enough, and you another inch of the same thing, I think they will give you a price break on the second 1"  At least that is what they told me once.

 

So lets take a look at where we are.

First regarding pressure relief without regard to alignment.

2.5" of Aerus memory foam over probably 2" of soft poly foam (firm mattresses usually have at least this much softer poly for cushioning over the spring) = Good pressure relief.

2" of 21 ILD latex over 2" soft poly foam = Sore hips and shoulders

3" of 21 ILD latex over 2" soft poly foam = Good pressure relief

This and your original issues is indicating to me that the poly is probably pretty soft as it is not making a real difference with the 2" of latex. Soft poly over firm springs would feel "harder" than firmer poly over firm springs (in terms of pressure issues) since you would go through it more easily and feel the effect of the firmer springs underneath more. Firmer poly would lessen the pressure on the springs since you wouldn't go through it as easily.

I wanted to confirm that it was indeed soft poly because that would make a real difference in any solutions so I called OMF and asked. I was referred from the store to a guy at the factory location who would know so this is probably pretty accurate. Here is what is over your springs (from lower to higher)

First right above is a layer of cotton batting.

Then there are 2 .25" layers of firmer poly 32 ILD for a total of 1/2"

Then there is a layer of 1.5" of 15 ILD convoluted (which makes it softer than non convoluted). This is the equivalent of about .75" - 1" or so of even softer non convoluted

Then in the quilting there is another 1.5" of 15 ILD non convoluted.

So basically you have the equivalent of about 3" of poly over cotton (firm) over springs (firm) and only 1/2" of this poly could be called "better than soft".

This is pretty typical of a "luxury firm" mattress

With this information ... will give it a bit more thought but I am suspecting that the firmness that is causing your pressure issues from the 2" of latex is not from the springs as I highly doubt that you are "going through" 2" of Celsion and 3" of poly. or even 2" of Celsion and the equivalent of 2.5" of soft poly onto the firmer poly/cotton/springs.

Phoenix

This is because if you add enough foam on the top to solve your pressure issues (as in the thicker layers of Aerus or Celsion), then the soft poly becomes your support layers and will allow too much "sinking in" (that the springs wouldn't) before you bottom out and cause alignment issues.

What you need to do is either

1. Add the absolute minimum amount of toppers that you can get away with to solve the pressure issues using a combination of the foam that is already in your mattress and a thinner topper

OR

2. Add thicker layers of toppers that would solve your pressure issues without needing the poly underneath but that are also firm enough so that when the poly underneath the toppers lets you sink in more that this puts you into alignment (instead of allowing you to go "past" the point of alignment). The difficulty here of course is that this would require firmer layers of toppers which could once again lead to pressure issues. It would also to a great degree "remove" the springs from the equation.

This is why I suspected that it was the latex ILD that was causing the problem.

One possibility here would be to use a thinner layer (1") of higher ILD latex (say 28-30) which even though it was firmer would allow you to go through it to the poly underneath and so would not feel as firm as a thicker layer of the same ILD. This would result in a more "rounded" pressure point on the poly and could solve your pressure issues without "bottoming out" onto the firmer layers underneath and still allow the springs to support you. This would also help "budget wise" of course (smiling).

I know that some of this seems somewhat counterintuitive until you get the "why" behind it.

Of course "mattress surgery" which would remove the poly completely and re-build on the springs would be the ideal but this is much more complicated and it's a lot easier to try a "fix" without going there.

Still thinking but this is where I'm going.

Phoenix

Do you think you would have heat issues with regular Talalay?

If you don't think this would be an issue now that the memory foam is gone, then I would suggest that you purchase 1" Talatech in 28 ild.

The hope here would be that this by itself over the mattress would solve both the pressure issues and the alignment issues (except for your neck/numbness issues which probably need a change in pillow) in which case you would return the 21 and be finished with 1" of latex.

If this didn't work, then depending on your experience with the 28 by itself, the next step would be the 28 over the 21 or the 21 over the 28. Hopefully one of these would solve the issues and you would be finished with 2" of latex.

If neither of these worked, then at least you would have your experience here to help you decide the next step which would probably be a thicker softer layer similar to the trifold 21 but that didn't allow you to sink in quite as far (probably 3" of slightly firmer overall which could be a combination of softer over the 21 over 28 to allow for more gradual pressure relief).

If this didn't work, you would probably be so frustrated that your sore back would be less of a problem than "fixing mattresses" (laughing) ... or you may just decide that "mattress surgery" is worth it after all.

Phoenix

I will try the 28 ILD alone for a couple of nights, then use the 28 ILD and 21 ILD in varying combinations for a few nights as well.  My hope is that the 28 ILD will be sufficient, which should not pose any alignment issues.

I Also ordered a Rejuvenite Classic Restora Pillow (medium firmness, high profile).

I look forward to reporting back in a few days!

Again, thanks for detailed research and great advice.

I have yet to find the winning combination of latex!  I am currently using the 1" of 21 Celsion over the 1" of 28 Talatech.  I also purchased a Rejuvenite Restora pillow for the neck problems.  I still experience quite a bit of shoulder pressure with the current setup, and also don't think the pillow is a perfect match either because the neck pain is still present.  After sleeping on a much softer mattress (likely a plush pillowtop from Sams or Costco) over the past few weekends, I have come to the conclusion that I simply do better with a softer mattress.  I also was able to become comfortable without sleeping with my head on my arm.  I'm starting to think this is a habit I developed to reduce shoulder pressure - I've been doing it for as long as I can remember.  I also found more comfort in a plain cotton thick, but very plush, pillow.  I think I may have purchased too firm of a mattress in the OMF Luxury Firm.  I see where the springs are rated as 12 3/4 guage thickness, too, so I don't imagine it's going to soften up anytime in the near future.

Here's my question:  Can I salvage the mattress and latex I have currently purchased by adding a bit more latex, or do I need to cut my losses now and take a new approach?  Thanks for any help!

It took me 3" of soft latex and 1" of 14ILD latex on a firm mattress to get it "soft" enough for side sleeping.  I would suggest getting 1" at a time of soft or even 14 ILD latex to get you comfortable.  My mattress is the plain latex from OMF which is different but still (for me) a firm mattress.