MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)... As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it. Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back. So I did surgery on it tonight.  I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. I did expect more from Englander... I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside!  What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands... On top of the 1 and 5/16 inches of soft junky pu foam, there was the whatchacallit, the top sewn into tufts, whatever they call that thing. (What kind of a mattress expert am I??! I can never remember the name of that top piece!  ) I removed that too because it's just the same cheap junky foam sewn together with a cloth and tufted...(By the way, if you buy the Malibu PLUSH instead of the Malibu FIRM, know what you get? Instead of 1 and 5/16" of junky pu foam, you get about 5" of junky pu foam! That must REALLY hurt people's backs!) This kind of mattress construction - which all the major companies are using, now, STINKS! PU foam = Peee Eww!  So, I took off ALL the foam, and then replaced it with this, from bottom up: 1" of zoned HR foam: top = medium, middle = firm, and bottom = very firm (feet area doesn't really matter, imho) 3/4" of medium-soft latex (Talalay - not certain of the ILD - maybe 24 or 28?) 1" of Venus foam So it's about the same amount of foam as it had - now 2 and 3/4 instead of just 2" - but the main difference is that now I have QUALITY foam on top of the springs, foam that gives SUPPORT as well as softness. Will post more as the experiment progresses... I'll be playing around with this combination, see how it feels. My wife has something very similar to this on top of her Sealy springs, and she likes it pretty well.- P.S. the springs seem to feel pretty good. I can't say for sure though until I've slept on them with good foam for a while This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Dr_Mike wrote: Great post. I intend to do this to my old mattress. The question is how to keep the springs from punching through the foam. My mattress is eight years old now, so I cannot bank on its equivalent of your black layer still being good. I noticed that Foam Factory / foamdistributing.com sells a few things. They sell PU foam "skins" or "crusts" which I guess are the top inch of foam from a PU pour. The hard, stiff surface crust is, and I quote: "Crust or skin is commonly used over springs because of its tough and durable surface." They come in the same size as PU foam, 82x76x1" thick, $15 for HD36 and $17 for Lux. They don't specify a Lux-HQ which is a minor bummer, since it's denser and supposedly more durable. The HD36 has an ILD of 35, the Lux is ILD 50. I'll be deciding on an order this weekend; my back has just started objecting to our memory foam mattress after 3 weeks so I need to do something to my side of it. You can use about anything to cover the springs, in my opinion. The cloth used above is a very thin plastic-like (synthetic) type material. One time I used cardboard over the springs and that worked okay. It might cut back on the springiness, not entirely sure it's a good idea, but I did use it and it did seem okay at the time. You can buy 1/4" memory foam or 1/4" any kind of foam to put over the springs. All you are really doing is protecting the foam above so about anything will work. Think of a thick cloth like tarpaulin or ?? Both mattresses I have performed surgery on had very thin layers over the springs so I would stick to that concept. I think 1" is too much. Go with cloth as above, or 1/4" foam. When you dissect your mattress you may well find a thin layer of foam over the springs that is still good. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Vaphils wrote: Nice post Jim. So your sleep was ok? Better than before? I may have missed it, but how tall are your springs and how many inches does your cuddlebed support? I.e. What is the max amount of inches of foam/latex you could add to the springs? You're using a boxspring in addition, right? I may go this route if my DIY doesn't pan out. :) Not sure how tall the springs are... I am quite sure they are "standard" - all I have seen are about the same. I am using a box, not really a box SPRING. I think it has a little spring action but is mostly just slats of wood - it's the old Sealy Fenway box spring from CostCo. Yes, my sleep has been excellent 2 nights now, after the mattress surgery. Understand that I have had major arm, shoulder and back and neck problems for the past 5 years due to 3 car accidents involving those areas of my body. So NO mattress is going to have me sleeping and waking up perfectly. But I can say for sure that when I was sleeping on my HR foam+ memory foam+ latex combinations with no springs, I was waking up every day after only 5-6 hours of sleep with my back hurting so bad I could not fall back to sleep. Now, last night, I was in bed TEN hours and woke up with my shoulders only hurting a little - no back pain at all. That's close to what I would call "miraculous"! I always caution that I've found that often with a new mattress combination it begins to hurt me after a week or several weeks, so I'm not "out of the woods" yet but this is certainly encouraging, and I will say that I feel better on this mattress - as of now - than I have felt on any mattress or diy combo, in many years. I'm not sure what you mean or how to answer your question: "how many inches does your cuddlebed support? I.e. What is the max amount of inches of foam/latex you could add to the springs? " Can you elaborate on what you mean? I assume you are calling my altered mattress a "cuddlebed"? If I understand you correctly, I dont' think there is a maximum on how much foam you can put on top of springs. The thing is, normally there is a comfort equation of some sort, where if you put too much foam on top of springs you may as well just use the foam, only, I think. I think most here have indicated that using 2-3" of foam on top of springs is about the right amount. I am currently using 2 and 3/4" plus the "cuddlebed" topper but it really does not add much, maybe 1/2" of foam or less after it's broken in. This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Excellent stuff Jim. I believe you're really doing a service for the forum community by giving us these details and posting your pictures. You know the old saying of course, "A picture is worth a 1000 words." As has been discussed by you, and others, but principally as far as I'm concerned, by you, the mattress manufacturers have been ripping us off for years. Their idea of a great mattress is to put anything cheap inside of it that will be acceptable to the customer for a year or two, put a fancy cover on it, give it a fancy name, and charge a fancy price. And make darn sure that the other dealers who sell your product have a different name on the same mattress, so that no one can price shop them. Again, thanks Jim for your enlightened post. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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jimsocal wrote: Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)... As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it. Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back. So I did surgery on it tonight. I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. I did expect more from Englander... I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside! What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands... I don't think your assessment is fair to Englander. While I'm unfamiliar with Englander specifically I am familiar with the major "S" brands. You spent how much on this mattress? $250 if I recall correctly? Sir, you purchased the dirt cheap bottom-end line of beds. Why are you surprised that a cheap bed is made of cheap components? Did you expect Talalay in a $250 mattress? Consistent Density memory foam? You can spend more than $250 on a decent Topper, much less the whole mattress. Let's not be misleading. It doesn't make sense to go out and buy a $5000 Kia and then complain when it doesn't have a Hemi engine, 4 wheel drive, or heated leather interior. -Alex |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Hi Alex, For me, no doubt you have insite of mattresses made by the big mattress companies. Do you have a take on why they keep making mattresses with short order failing pillow tops? Are there different quaility and lasting pillow tops on expensive mattresses? Can you defend them for making and getting these failing mattresses out to gullible customers? Shouldn't they be more up front about how long these will last? What price does it start at where you can purchase a mattress that will hold up to for serveral years of good service? For me their practices and concerns for the public seems to have a good comparasion with the US Auto Industry of yesteryear. Maybe they get some bad and unfair raps but their deceitful campaigns of supplying the US market is a disgrace and in my opionion they are getting what thet deserve in this forum. Thanks for your recent posts they seem to be quite informative and interesting. Your comment please. Bear |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Alexander wrote: I don't think your assessment is fair to Englander. While I'm unfamiliar with Englander specifically I am familiar with the major "S" brands. You spent how much on this mattress? $250 if I recall correctly? Sir, you purchased the dirt cheap bottom-end line of beds. Why are you surprised that a cheap bed is made of cheap components? Did you expect Talalay in a $250 mattress? Consistent Density memory foam? You can spend more than $250 on a decent Topper, much less the whole mattress. Let's not be misleading. It doesn't make sense to go out and buy a $5000 Kia and then complain when it doesn't have a Hemi engine, 4 wheel drive, or heated leather interior. -Alex Alex, my indictment is of all the S brands (and other mass marketed) lower and medium end mattresses. I'm not yet sure about the higher end S brands. Please provide stats on higher end S brand mattresses that are worth buying. This forum is for "What's the best mattress?" So your input is welcome if you dare to challenge us to examine your stats on what you consider to be a "worthy" S brand or mass market - under $2000 - mattress. If Sealy or whoever makes a great $1500 mattress, I'd like to know what's in it! I do not say this facetiously. I really would be pleased to know that there are some S brands making good mattresses - mattresses that do NOT have too much cheap PU foam, mattresses that do not have pillow tops that will break down within 1 week, 3 months or a year and cause people's backs to hurt. I would love to answer the questions people often pose here, "So which mattress should I buy? I want a SPRING mattress that is good!" with a recommendation for something other than a specialty bed that is over $2000. And even some of those I am skeptical about... One thing the S brands need to do is stop making pillow tops that break down quickly and hurt people's backs because they have 5" of cheap PU foam on top of the springs! That is just unacceptable, and in my opinion as long as they do this injustice to people, they deserve my condemnation. I have a family member who just bought a pillow-top mattress and it is killing their backs after 1 week but the store won't take it back. Added: Your mentioning of Stearns and Foster in another thread made me wonder if they make some good mattresses. I went to their web page here: http://www.stearnsandfoster.com/ComparisonChart.aspx Curiously, they do not tell me what ILD's or thicknesses or types of foam are inside. Do you have that information? They mention "memory foam" and "latex" as being inside some of them, but don't say how much or what ILD's or which process the latex is made from, nor how much PU foam and of what type and density it is. I can understand that maybe the average buyer would not know the difference, anyway. But it seems they are relying on the average buyer to know that "latex" means quality. Yet, they are probably (?) just putting enough latex in there to entice them with that word, but then surrounding it with cheap PU foam. Or am I wrong on that? Please provide specs that prove me wrong and I'll gladly admit it! This message was modified Sep 6, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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I have to agree with Jim. I first started out looking at Stearns and Fosters three top of the line "All foam" mattress and box springs. The least expensive was $2800, the middle was $3500, and the top was $4000. These were all three California Kings. They all three had a latex core of 8.75 inches of luxury latex. I later found out that this is synthetic foam, petroleum-based, not genuine organic latex. The principal difference between the three mattresses was in what they call their “comfort level” the least expensive mattress had 1 inch of supersoft flawless foam, whatever that is. The $3500 mattress had three quarter-inch genuine latex, 1” flawless foam, Versare inner panel, whatever that is, then one and ½ inch convoluted genuine latex foam, and finally one and ½ inch supersoft flawless foam. The top-of-the-line $4000 mattress added an additional three-quarter inch genuine latex foam and ½ inch supersoft flawless foam to the $3500 comfort layers The quilted panel on top was pretty much the same consisting of 1.3 ounces flame guard silk/wool blend, 1.5” supersoft convoluted supersoft foam and 1” supersoft flawless foam. All three mattresses had a box spring called ultra steel. The problem with all three of these mattresses is trying to find out what you’re actually buying. The illustration that went along with these three mattresses was basically all the same. Until someone was willing to spend from $2800-$4000 and take a surgical knife to them, you would never know for sure what you were actually purchasing. A person I know, who used to sell for this mattress chain, told me that there regional supervisor made the comment that “They could hide a bicycle in one of their mattresses, and the average customer would never know the difference.” I can see how this could be true. If you took the handlebars, wheels, and the pedals off of a bicycle it could very easily be stuffed in the middle of all this super soft foam, it might just add some additional stiffening to their mattress. But the point I want to make here is this. Think what kind of arrogance this shows toward their customers! Forever and a day the mattress companies have realized that the average consumer has very little knowledge about the mattress they sleep on. They go into the showroom lay down on the mattress and if it feels comfortable, the cover is attractive, the price seems reasonable, and the salesperson is pleasant and seems knowledgeable and informed, more than likely they will buy it. End of story. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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eagle2 wrote: I have to agree with Jim. I first started out looking at Stearns and Fosters three top of the line "All foam" mattress and box springs. The least expensive was $2800, the middle was $3500, and the top was $4000. These were all three California Kings. [edited for brevity] Forever and a day the mattress companies have realized that the average consumer has very little knowledge about the mattress they sleep on. They go into the showroom lay down on the mattress and if it feels comfortable, the cover is attractive, the price seems reasonable, and the salesperson is pleasant and seems knowledgeable and informed, more than likely they will buy it. End of story. Yes, what we really need is a law requiring FULL DISCLOSURE re mattresses. They should be required to list what is inside the mattress, from the type and ILD and thicknesses of foams, to gauge, type and count of springs. One cannot possibly comparison shop a mattress with the info you are [not] given by the manufacturers. And my experience is that when I start asking questions, the salesmen's heads explode. One guy practically told me to just get out of his store, he had no info to give me. And the others just said "Well, I'll see what I can find out" and then came back with only partial information. I would admire a company for listing the above information. And thus, an informed consumer like those of us here on this forum, could decide, for example: "Well, it is obvious that the lower end line of mattresses of this company are junk, but the higher end seem to be worthwhile." So that way, it would benefit the company because we could clearly see that in order to get quality ingredients we have to spend more. The problem is, the way it is right now, I really do not have faith that the higher end more expensive mattresses DO have better quality foams or are made to be any more supportive. Only by knowing what the mattress is made of can a consumer make an informed choice. And my experience is that the manufacturers do not want us to know. Even S&F's web site has almost no real information - just a bunch of marketing blurbs. If Alexander had not told me - in the other thread - I'd have no idea what S&F is using inside their product, what types of springs they are, etc. Their web site is worthless in that respect. It seems to me that the information should at least BE there, somewhere, on a link at the bottom or if you go into a store and ASK for it you should be able to get it. But no, apparently all this info about types of foams, ILD's, gauge of springs, etc. is considered "top secret" by the mattress industry. It's like they don't want us to see the "man behind the curtain"! |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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eagle2 wrote: I have to agree with Jim. I first started out looking at Stearns and Fosters three top of the line "All foam" mattress and box springs. The least expensive was $2800, the middle was $3500, and the top was $4000. These were all three California Kings. They all three had a latex core of 8.75 inches of luxury latex. I later found out that this is synthetic foam, petroleum-based, not genuine organic latex. The principal difference between the three mattresses was in what they call their “comfort level” the least expensive mattress had 1 inch of supersoft flawless foam, whatever that is. The $3500 mattress had three quarter-inch genuine latex, 1” flawless foam, Versare inner panel, whatever that is, then one and ½ inch convoluted genuine latex foam, and finally one and ½ inch supersoft flawless foam. The top-of-the-line $4000 mattress added an additional three-quarter inch genuine latex foam and ½ inch supersoft flawless foam to the $3500 comfort layers The quilted panel on top was pretty much the same consisting of 1.3 ounces flame guard silk/wool blend, 1.5” supersoft convoluted supersoft foam and 1” supersoft flawless foam. All three mattresses had a box spring called ultra steel. The problem with all three of these mattresses is trying to find out what you’re actually buying. The illustration that went along with these three mattresses was basically all the same. Until someone was willing to spend from $2800-$4000 and take a surgical knife to them, you would never know for sure what you were actually purchasing. A person I know, who used to sell for this mattress chain, told me that there regional supervisor made the comment that “They could hide a bicycle in one of their mattresses, and the average customer would never know the difference.” I can see how this could be true. If you took the handlebars, wheels, and the pedals off of a bicycle it could very easily be stuffed in the middle of all this super soft foam, it might just add some additional stiffening to their mattress. But the point I want to make here is this. Think what kind of arrogance this shows toward their customers! Forever and a day the mattress companies have realized that the average consumer has very little knowledge about the mattress they sleep on. They go into the showroom lay down on the mattress and if it feels comfortable, the cover is attractive, the price seems reasonable, and the salesperson is pleasant and seems knowledgeable and informed, more than likely they will buy it. End of story. Good Evening Eagle, First, regarding the Stearns you mentioned, you don't want all organic latex. You wouldn't enjoy it, it'd be hot and wouldn't last long. What you're looking for is a blend. The Stearns is neither 100% synthetic nor 100% organic. Like most reputable companies, it's a blend. The exact blend and process is somewhat of a corporate secret. It's held that way to avoid imitations. As Stearns is a division of Sealy they are the only major manufacturer you can buy whose latex is made by themselves. This is neither an upside nor a downside just a fact. Regarding what the mattress has in it and disclosure, I agree with you. You should know if you want to. 98% of people out there don't want to. The second you start spouting terms like ILD and even something as simple as spring gauge your average consumer tunes out. For those that do want to know you have to find the right salesperson. And by "right salesperson" I am not implying that any salesperson that can't answer your question is an idiot. You have to understand that not all companies provide expensive training and in depth details on their beds. Especially if you're shopping at a small local distrubuter. Pretend you're Sealy. You're in the midst of a recession (depression?) your sales are plummeting and you have to cut somewhere. Cutting the quality of the beds is cutting your hand off so you try to avoid that. You can't COMPLETELY cut off training because that would negatively impact your sales...but are you going to spend a thousand dollars to pay for your rep to visit Joe's Bed Shack out on 52nd? No. You're going to concentrate on the Big Boys. Shop there. You'll probably find someone who knows what they're talking about. Oh and try to be polite about asking. Especially if you're looking at something cheap. Chances are the salesguy doesn't get paid much, if anything, to sell you that $400 queen set and you just sucked up one of his ups for the day. He's got a wife, kids, and a mortgage too. If he's good at his job he'll still help you to the best of his ability but it pays to be reasonablely nice about it. A lack of minute details is not unique to the mattress industry. How many people out there do you think could even tell you the basic principle regarding how their plasma TV works much less name one single tiny component of it? All they know is they hit the POWER button and on comes the final season of LOST. If you want to know more than that you have to dig...sometimes a lot. The same is true for mattresses. The info is out there. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Alex said: "If you want to know more than that you have to dig...sometimes a lot. The same is true for mattresses. The info is out there." I am sure it is, just not on the corp. web sites. In fact I have learned more from you about Sealy and S&F than anywhere else. And I have been in the hunt for several weeks now, night and day! I feel you must work for them or else you are in the mattress business some way. I seem to hear "vestested interest" speaking. Nothing wrong with this. But at the same time it does tend to shape your point of view.....yes? You also said: "First, regarding the Stearns you mentioned, you don't want all organic latex. You wouldn't enjoy it, it'd be hot and wouldn't last long." Alex this fly's in the face of everything I have read in my several week, night and day quest. Organic latex is quite expensive (compared to most synthetics) and i feel this is one of the main reasons the big manufactures do not use it. Secondly 100% natural organic latex is known to last 20 to 30 years. As far as it being hot, I have not heard this. I've heard that memory foam sleeps hot, but then it is a petroleum based products. It is quite obvious that you know a lot about the mattress business. But what do you know about the independence such as Flowbeds, Savvy Rest, and Sleep EZ. They are selling organic hundred percent natural latex. And almost all of their prices are less than the Stearns and Foster synthetic latex mattresses that I priced. This message was modified Sep 7, 2009 by eagle2
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