Mattress Forum

You know me--I'm all for mattress surgery, but that's gotta be some kind of record. Four nights before it went under the exacto knife for a foamectomy (I LOVE that term!) Well, I guess you bought it for the springs. I'm looking forward to seeing your pictures of what's under the Englander hood.  And yeah, what is with those lumpy tufted tops on today's mattresses? Who on earth decided that was supposed to be comfortable?

Anyway, the new configuration sounds very promising. Hope this is IT at last. By the by, do you know what kind of spring unit the mattress has? If they nailed the support level for you at least they're doing something right!

Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)...

As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it.

Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back.

So I did surgery on it tonight. 

I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread.

I did expect more from Englander...
I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside!

What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands...

I don't think your assessment is fair to Englander. While I'm unfamiliar with Englander specifically I am familiar with the major "S" brands. You spent how much on this mattress? $250 if I recall correctly? Sir, you purchased the dirt cheap bottom-end line of beds. Why are you surprised that a cheap bed is made of cheap components? Did you expect Talalay in a $250 mattress? Consistent Density memory foam? You can spend more than $250 on a decent Topper, much less the whole mattress.

Let's not be misleading. It doesn't make sense to go out and buy a $5000 Kia and then complain when it doesn't have a Hemi engine, 4 wheel drive, or heated leather interior.

-Alex

Good Evening Eagle,

First, regarding the Stearns you mentioned, you don't want all organic latex. You wouldn't enjoy it, it'd be hot and wouldn't last long. What you're looking for is a blend. The Stearns is neither 100% synthetic nor 100% organic. Like most reputable companies, it's a blend. The exact blend and process is somewhat of a corporate secret. It's held that way to avoid imitations. As Stearns is a division of Sealy they are the only major manufacturer you can buy whose latex is made by themselves. This is neither an upside nor a downside just a fact.

Regarding what the mattress has in it and disclosure, I agree with you. You should know if you want to. 98% of people out there don't want to. The second you start spouting terms like ILD and even something as simple as spring gauge your average consumer tunes out. For those that do want to know you have to find the right salesperson. And by "right salesperson" I am not implying that any salesperson that can't answer your question is an idiot. You have to understand that not all companies provide expensive training and in depth details on their beds. Especially if you're shopping at a small local distrubuter. Pretend you're Sealy. You're in the midst of a recession (depression?) your sales are plummeting and you have to cut somewhere. Cutting the quality of the beds is cutting your hand off so you try to avoid that. You can't COMPLETELY cut off training because that would negatively impact your sales...but are you going to spend a thousand dollars to pay for your rep to visit Joe's Bed Shack out on 52nd? No. You're going to concentrate on the Big Boys. Shop there. You'll probably find someone who knows what they're talking about.

Oh and try to be polite about asking. Especially if you're looking at something cheap. Chances are the salesguy doesn't get paid much, if anything, to sell you that $400 queen set and you just sucked up one of his ups for the day. He's got a wife, kids, and a mortgage too. If he's good at his job he'll still help you to the best of his ability but it pays to be reasonablely nice about it.

A lack of minute details is not unique to the mattress industry. How many people out there do you think could even tell you the basic principle regarding how their plasma TV works much less name one single tiny component of it? All they know is they hit the POWER button and on comes the final season of LOST. If you want to know more than that you have to dig...sometimes a lot. The same is true for mattresses. The info is out there.

Really????? In my opinion the major manufacturers have been cutting quality for the last 15 years and their products are mostly nicely packaged, over-hyped crap. The consumer is paying more for marketing to convince them that sags--ooops--body impressions are a good thing than the materials used to make the mattress are even worth. No wonder people are looking to mattress kits and DYI projects to save them from that.

Alexander, there are a lot of knowledgeable people on this Forum, but I smell an industry apologist. You keep dodging the question every time someone asks. If you have an industry affiliation you need to disclose it now.

No, I do not currently work for the mattress industry. I'm recently retired after thirty-five years of running my own shop. After doing it for so long I can't help but still follow the industry and still have the vendor contacts I made over that time. Retirement is considerably more boring than I'd anticipated.

Cloud, I can only talk from my personal experience and sales over thirty-five years. It's true some people are dissatisfied with their mattress. Picking one is difficult. Often people do it incorrectly and this is a large contribution to their dissatisfaction. The vast majority of consumers, however, enjoy their sleep product for the amount of time they're supposed to. In a good quality spring mattress this is between 8-10 years. 6-8 is you and your partner are considered very heavy.

It's all about buying the right mattress for who you are and what you need. For example, a couple of young side sleepers with a combined weight under 300lbs who enjoy a soft, featherbed feel that envelops you would probably enjoy a good World Class Simmons pillowtop. By contrast a hefty stomach sleeper who sleeps exceptionally hot would not only rip through the bed in a short amount of time but would be miserable in the process.

Buying a mattress is more like buying a pair of shoes than, say, a television. Just because the shoes don't fit you means the shoes are inferior or junk. There's somene out there they fit. The trick is finding out what DOES fit you. I'm under the impression that's what this site is for.

-Alex

Thanks for your welcome and vote of confidence. I'll do my best to shed some light on the workings of major brand names as therein lies the bulk of my experience. Perhaps I'm too quick to defend people who work in my former field but I tend to see people named Ben with daughters named Jenny who are starting college in the fall. Blue collered Joes just trying to make a living.

I absolutely believe the consumer should have as much information as is practical to give them if they want it but I don't think Mattress Salespeople are unique in their lack of fine detail or where to find it.

To take your CompUSA example I challenge you to go to your local BestBuy (To my knowledge there are no more CompUSAs) and ask the RSA there what the default RAM timings are on the entry level emachine. From an industry standpoint this isn't too much more complicated than asking the ILD of the "A" layer of a Sealy bed you're trying to purchase. I'd bet a dollar to a penny that only 1 out of 10 of BestBuy's best could tell you what RAM timings even are and maybe 1 out of 15 tell you the true figures for any given model. If you try to call emachine's support system and manage to get a person on the other line they are even less likely to know.

Part of the reason is no one ever asks. In 35 years I had exactly 3 people ask what the ILD of a specific foam was. All three were former vendors.

Perhaps I'm being too defensive but some of these guys are my friends, and former coworkers. Heck, a few of them are due over for laborday beer tonight.

-Alex

You bring up an interesting point regarding Mattress sales with your "Just lay on them all!" point. Some RSAs do this. It's born from a lack of self assurance and sometimes expertise. Here's the thinking behind it in example form.

Sealy Posturepedic 5-turn Firms are HARD beds. Like bounce a quarter hard. This is due to their reasonably thick 14ga wire being connected by 14ga lace. In short, whenever you press down on one coil, you're pressing down on the 8 coils surrounding it. Couple this with the fact that Sealy zones the middle of their beds with a comparitively firm memory foam and you have a bed you could crack your hip on if you lay down too quickly. Let's pretend you're an RSA. You have a consumer come in and say, "Hard bed! I want the firmest piece you have! Show me your flooring department!" you might take them to this Sealy Posturepedic Firm. The consumer then lies down and bounces right back up saying, "Too soft! I feel like I sink right in!"

As the RSA you might think to yourself that this guy wants to sleep on concrete. While you're attempting to come up with a response the consumer sits down on the Simmons Beautyrest right next to it. Now the Simmons firms are considerably softer. Even though they use a thicker gauge steel (13 on the firms) the fact that each coil is individual gives you a more conforming, less hard-floor type of feeling. You're not feeling the pressure of the 8 surrounding coils whenever you press down on 1 like the Sealy. Imagine this consumer sits down on the Simmons and immediately lies back saying, "Wow...now this is nice and firm." Your professional sense and the laws of physics tell you that the consumer is out of their mind. You do not however argue with him. You can't say, "Well Mr. Consumer you're actually incorrect." People tend not to like their salesguy arguing with them.

Now imagine you have this happen a lot. Let's say 30% of the time the customer disagrees about the feel of the bed with what you know to be true from personal experimentation and simple logic. Imagine you're relatively new. You might eventually throw logic out the window and decline into a "Just try everything!" attitude. From both the consumer and the RSA's benefits this attitude is wrong...but understandable.

A good RSA will ask you a series of questions and narrow your selection down to a few for you to try. Less than five. He might ask these questions outright or he might take the "Eye-doctor" approach of "Which is better? This one or this one?" until he identifies what you're responding to and directs you to those beds. The "Try everything!" approach tends not to work because the beds will all feel the same after about 5. This is useless and counterproductive for both the RSA and the Consumer. The RSA then has a hard time justifying more expensive beds because they all feel the same to the consumer at that point. The consumer runs a high risk of getting the wrong bed because he's been desensitized.

In truth, unless the consumer has extensively tried a specific bed and specifically comes in looking for it, the best thing the RSA can do for the consumer is ignore what the consumer THINKS they want. With the exception of a very small minority that has ventured into gritty details, they have no clue.

A good RSA will smile, listen to what the consumer thinks they want and then identify what they actually need. A very good RSA will do so without the consumer realizing it. Heh.

-Alex

Most major retailers will have cards that have at least some of the information you're looking for. Some small shops don't. I have an old one from my shop lying here it says the following:

- 782 Sealy Posturetech coils

- 7 zone No Toss and Turn inlay with Visco - Latex - Visco pressure relief

- Unicased XT edge support

- Silk and wool infused top

These cards are attached to the headboards of my former shop and are different for each bed. That's about all the detail they go into and are generally more than enough for most consumers. Most of your larger stores and some of your smaller stores should provide at least this much.

So far as the names of the beds being different goes. Well, sometimes the beds are genuinely different by retailer. 5 turn vs 7turn coils, etc. For the most part, however, they're not. The manufacturers have given you a way around this though. Each bed belongs in a series.

For example, a Sealy Posturepedic spring mattress belongs in one of 3 categories:

-Premier

-Reserve

-Signature.

 While not all beds within the same series are identical they do share a lot more in common within a category than without. So if you're shopping at Mattressplace X and you find a Sealy Signature Great River Rapids or whatever and you go to the competitor who tries to convince you that the Sealy Reserve Arbor Morning is the same bed, you can be assured that he's full of it. If he instead shows you a Sealy Signature Giant Floating Dragon (all these names made up) you can at least know they share a lot in common.

Simmons Beautyrest uses classifications:

-Classic

-Worldclass

-Exceptionale

-Black

All Simmons spring mattresses will be called one of these regardless of where you shop. Knowing these categories helps you cross shop.

-Alex

Please see my above post in how to price shop between mattresses. Please also see the same post on the amount of information most retailers and manufacturers do provide.

-Alex

You don't have to take my word for it. Pick up a copy of the October 2009 Consumer Reports. They poll 17,000 of their readers. In it you'll find facts such as this:

- 78% of those who spent more than $4000 on their mattress said they were "highly satisfied" with it.

- 66% of those who spent less than $1000 on their mattress said they were "highly satisfied" with it.

- 78% of people who purchased a mattress said a new bed, any new bed, improved their ability to get a good night's sleep.

- 42% said that their new mattress "greatly improved" their sleep.

There are people out there who have troubles for whatever reason. Usually it's the wrong bed. Sometimes they're a unique case that requires an extensive amount of expertise to narrow in on what (if anything) will solve their problem. For the most part, however, consumers are satisfied with their purchase. Most are even "highly satisfied".

So far as my Simmons Black goes it's all about knowing what was right for me. I'm a side sleeper which means the individual coil systems tend to be better. It 230lbs I'm also not a small man which means a thicker gauge coil is needed. I sleep warm but like to burrow into my mattress. This means a cashmere top with Talalay latex is my best option. The Rosalyn has these features ergo I am highly satisfied.

- Alex

Eagle,

I understand your frustration and the frustration of others on this board. I'm trying to put it back on the track of giving answers and helping people answer the question of "What's the Best Mattress (For me)?" Villifying the mattress industry doesn't really answer that question or do much of anything productive.

The feedback on viewpoints.com is a perfect example of why some people aren't satisfied with their purchase. A bed is not like a television or a microwave. It's more like a shoe. Currently I'm wearing a pair of size 12 reinforced toe black dockers dress shoes. If I took 100 random people and had them walk around in my size 12 reinforced toe black dockers dress shoes for a month many people might come back with negative reviews of the shoe. They might say it hurts their feet or it wasn't supportive. There's nothing wrong with my shoes, it's simply not the right shoe for all of them. It's the right shoe for me and people who have needs similar to mine. My bed is the same way. In a crowd of 20 I bet I could find at least 2 who say the bed is too soft. I bet I can find another 2 who say the bed is too hard. I could find 2 who say the bed completely lacks support. I could find 2 who think it feels amazing. There is no answer for the question "What's the Best Mattress?" But that's okay. This is the wrong question. The correct question is "What's the Best Mattress For Me?" For this reason specific Mattress Reviews are more or less useless. This is why Consumer Reports doesn't do them.

You happen to be a consumer who prefers more detail in your purchase. Far finer detail than the average consumer. That's absolutely fine. My advice to you is to find someone who knows what you're asking and purchase from that person. Or use forums such as these to reach a broader audience. I can answer most any question you'd have regarding Tempurpedic, Stearns and Foster, Sealy, Simmons, and Serta as well as general questions regarding coil and foam types and how they may affect your specific needs. If I don't know the answer, I can probably find out via the vendor contacts I've built over time. Does every mattress RSA have access to these tools? No. If this bothers you vote with your wallet and don't purchase from that establishment but understand that the detail with which you're attempting to shop is by far the exception rather than the rule. Most consumers zone out if you try to explain to them that there's more than one type of foam out there.

Perhaps I am mistaken as to the purpose of this forum then. I was under the impression that it was to answer questions regarding mattresses to help people find the best mattress for them. I didn't know that the purpose was to incite revolution within the industry.

My apologies,

-Alex

Remembering our conversation earlier, I went to the computer department and was promptly greeted by a smiling young man in a blue polo. He asked if he could help me. I replied yes, that I'd like to ask him a few questions about about the eMachine here. He smiled and began to tell me how it was a good machine for light gaming, photo work and web surfing. At the end I asked him if I could ask him a few more questions. I asked him what the average core temp was under a medium graphical load. He stared at me like I'd grown a nose out of my forehead (perhaps he didn't expect an older man to understand anything about these new-fangled computawhatsits?) I asked my question again saying that it was important because I did a lot of home video editing and I had warped the motherboard of my last PC due to ventilation problems with the box. He said he didn't know but would ask his supervisor. He returned with a taller boy who explained to me that they weren't given that information. I asked him if he could tell me where I could find it. He recommended some programs that monitor internal CPU temp and suggested I buy the computer and try them.

I accepted this answer and asked him if he could tell me who manufacturered the RAM in the PC. There's a wide...WIDE variation in quality of RAM dependant upon where it's made and by whom. If I'm going to spend a thousand dollars on a computer, I want to know whether I'm buying junk RAM or not. The supervisor said he didn't know. When I asked him if eMachines had a toll free customer support number for questions such as these he gave me a number for tech support but said it was unlikely they would know.

Two strikes so far so I attempted go give him an easy one. I asked him if he could tell me of any bloatware found on the PC (bloatware is programs installed on a new computer such as free trials, demos, etc for software you may or may not ever want) He listed three he was aware of but would not reassure me that those three were the only ones installed when I pressed him on it. He wouldn't tell me what was in the PC because he didn't know and didn't know where to get the information.

When I asked him why important details like these were not included in the little cards found underneath each computer he said (and this is god's honest truth) "Most customers aren't interested in those sorts of details."

Tomorrow I'll conduct an experiment. I'll call three retailers in my area (not my former store) and the Sealy customer service number. I'll ask the following questions:

- Can you describe for me the Sealy Posturepedic Coil and how it differs from others?

-What's the gauge of the coil?

-What kinds of foams are in it?

-What kind of ticking do they offer?

I'm curious to see how they answer.

-Alex 

I called three local mattress stores around town that all carried Sealy products. I posed as a mattress shopper and told them I was interested in a Sealy Posturepedic Signature series bed. I  asked them the following questions:

- What type of coil is in the mattress and can you describe it to me?

- What is the gauge of the coil?

- What types of foams are in the mattress?

- What kind of ticking is in the mattress?

Every single one of places I called gave me the correct information to these four questions. One guy had to ask another salesman for the gauge of the coil. This information is enough for 99% of the consumer world to make a buying decision. Just for Jim though I asked the following followups

-Can you tell me the exact thickness of each layer of foam?

-Can you tell me the ILDs of the PU, PE, and Latex and the Density of the Memory Foam?

Two of the places knew the thickness of each layer. One guy wasn't sure but said he could find out for me. One of the three places knew the density of the memory foam. None of them knew the ILDs. I asked them whether they'd ever been asked the ILD of the foam before. They said no.

So those are the conclusions of my experiment. The basic information is there. The salesguy is happy to give it to you. So far as the small technical details go, I wonder how useful they are.

All beds within a manufacturer are going to use the same ILD foam if it's called the same thing. For example, "Seal Supersoft Foam" is the same ILD regardless of the specific model of the bed it's in. So you can't use ILDs to shop within a manufacturer. Now they may vary between manufacturers  but how much use is that?

Let's say for example you're comparison a Sealy and a Simmons mattress. All the foam layers are the same except the Talalay in the Simmons is 30 and the Talalay in the Sealy is 25. What does this information tell you? You might attempt to interpret this as saying that the Simmons will be a firmer bed and the Sealy a softer.

You'd be wrong.

The individual coil system in the Simmons will give it a sinkier, softer feeling despite the fact that the top layer is a higher ILD. Neither is universally more suportive.

Now you might say that's not a fair comparison. After all if you do your research on the coils (information that IS available in the stores) you'd know that the interlaced coils of the Sealys are a deeper, firmer touch than the Individual coils of a Simmons. Okay, Let's take something closer. The Stearns and Foster Core series uses a Marshall coil that is the Non-Simmons version of the Simmons type coil. Let's take the same situation as above except with the softer ILD being on the Stearns. Well, they have the same basic coil design so SURELY the Stearns is softer, right?

No. You'd be wrong again. The Stearns uses a 14ga coil to the Simmons 15.25ga thereby making it a considerably firmer touch. Even if we used the 13ga Simmons firm coils, the Stearns coils are STILL going to be firmer even with the softer ILD foam because of the different tempering process Stearns uses.

My point is that knowing the ILD of the foam or the density of the memory foam doesn't really provide any information that would be useful in your buying decision. That, more than anything, is why it's not available.

I'll leave Eagle and yourself to your crusade then. Perhaps you'll change the industry from this forum.

In regards to mattresses with different names, the manufacturers DO put the basic model of the mattress on the foot of the bed. You can use these models to cross shop. In Simmons they're called Classic, World Class, Exceptionale, and Black. In Sealy they're called Premier, Reserve, Signature, and Natural Origins.

Now there are some minor differences between beds within a specific model. For example, one World Class might use dacron while the other uses silk and wool in the ticking. One Exceptionale might have a latex top while the other has a memory foam but these differences are obvious and usually printed on the card next to the bed. For the most part the beds are similar enough for you to comparison shop.

Also no retailer that I've ever come in contact with that has a price match policy in this industry requires that the bed be the same name. Same features and manufacturer is all that's needed.

-Alex

Catlover-- if you'd like to see more pictures of another mattress surgery here's a link to the one I did on mine: http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/mattress-surgery-101/4385-0-1.html I just checked it out to make sure the pictures were still active.

Thanks!

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