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Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)... As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it. Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back. So I did surgery on it tonight.  I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. I did expect more from Englander... I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside!  What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands... On top of the 1 and 5/16 inches of soft junky pu foam, there was the whatchacallit, the top sewn into tufts, whatever they call that thing. (What kind of a mattress expert am I??! I can never remember the name of that top piece!  ) I removed that too because it's just the same cheap junky foam sewn together with a cloth and tufted...(By the way, if you buy the Malibu PLUSH instead of the Malibu FIRM, know what you get? Instead of 1 and 5/16" of junky pu foam, you get about 5" of junky pu foam! That must REALLY hurt people's backs!) This kind of mattress construction - which all the major companies are using, now, STINKS! PU foam = Peee Eww!  So, I took off ALL the foam, and then replaced it with this, from bottom up: 1" of zoned HR foam: top = medium, middle = firm, and bottom = very firm (feet area doesn't really matter, imho) 3/4" of medium-soft latex (Talalay - not certain of the ILD - maybe 24 or 28?) 1" of Venus foam So it's about the same amount of foam as it had - now 2 and 3/4 instead of just 2" - but the main difference is that now I have QUALITY foam on top of the springs, foam that gives SUPPORT as well as softness. Will post more as the experiment progresses... I'll be playing around with this combination, see how it feels. My wife has something very similar to this on top of her Sealy springs, and she likes it pretty well.- P.S. the springs seem to feel pretty good. I can't say for sure though until I've slept on them with good foam for a while This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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eagle2 wrote: Jim I agree with your post completely. Alex however does seem like the kind of knowledgeable and involved salesperson we would all like to run into when we went to one of the major manufacturers stores. Unfortunately, as you have indicated, far too often this is not the case. My assumption is that Alex either had a mattress store of his own, and quite possibly several of them, and therefore had an entirely different perspective on the industry than the kind of salespeople we run into. Our type of sales person are there to make a living by a commission. He did say that he had 35 years experience. Most of the salespeople we run into are lucky to have 35 months experience, and that, as I have already mentioned, simply coming to work and trying to make sales so they can make enough commission to pay their bills. A very different perspective indeed. Eagle2, go back and read Alexander's post: he clearly stated he ran his own retail store for 35 years. One of the salespeople I ran into was apparently paid by the hour, not on commission because he was not interested in answering any questions, was on the phone when my wife and I walked in - obviously a social call - and went right back to it when we walked out 1 min. later after he blew us off. Another guy was nice enough but knew next to nothing about the Englander beds I was asking about. Then another guy who said Englander was his "specialty" also knew very little and could only tell me that he'd call his contact at Englander to try and find out. Imagine! And Englander was their "specialty"! 6 or 7 years ago when I was shopping for mattresses, before and right after I discovered this forum, I talked to sales people at small stores and big stores, about Sealys, Simmons, Spring Air, Englander, latex, etc etc. and out of all those stores I went to, I only found one guy who seemed like an "Alexander-type" sales guy, who knew anything about what was inside the beds or what was best for a certain body type or anything like that. The one thing I found - after I learned enough to start asking questions about types of coils, gauges, turns, foam layers, latex, etc. - was that almost none of them knew anything and that they mostly could not or would not GET the information I was asking for! The one thing I can't stand is when a salesman says "Just lay on them and pick the one that feels best!" I would be interested in Alexander's opinion on this, but to me, this is the worst thing a salesman can say! I think ONLY a really sensitive individual who has truly slept on many different mattresses or was really well informed and sensitive to their own body, could tell by laying on a mattress for less than an hour, how that mattress is going to feel after sleeping on it for several nights or a week or a month! Having back problems for many years, and having tried many different types of beds, I can never tell anything by laying on the bed in a store! I wonder if Alex* has encountered this - perhaps it is only because of my back problems - but I can fall asleep on almost anything and it feels good, but it's not until after sleeping for 4-6 hours that I know if it gave me proper support because at that point my back starts to hurt. With pure foam and no springs, sometimes the mattress can feel good to me for a few days or a week, only to THEN start hurting my back. I have always chalked this up to the foam breaking in but whatever it is, for me it is a real phenomenon and problem. So I hate it when the mattress salesman says "It's easy - just lay on them and pick the one that feels the best!" If that were the case I think everyone would walk out buying the pillow-top with the most cheap foam on top because that DOES feel the best when you only lay on it for 15 minutes in the store! In fact, I think that is exactly what the mattress companies are trying to do, at least in their lower priced mattresses. I apologize for all my too-long posts. I start writing and then keep going like the Eveready Bunny. *Alexander, is it okay if I call you Alex or do you prefer Alexander? This message was modified Sep 7, 2009 by jimsocal
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Alex is fine, Jim. Thanks for your welcome and vote of confidence. I'll do my best to shed some light on the workings of major brand names as therein lies the bulk of my experience. Perhaps I'm too quick to defend people who work in my former field but I tend to see people named Ben with daughters named Jenny who are starting college in the fall. Blue collered Joes just trying to make a living. I absolutely believe the consumer should have as much information as is practical to give them if they want it but I don't think Mattress Salespeople are unique in their lack of fine detail or where to find it. To take your CompUSA example I challenge you to go to your local BestBuy (To my knowledge there are no more CompUSAs) and ask the RSA there what the default RAM timings are on the entry level emachine. From an industry standpoint this isn't too much more complicated than asking the ILD of the "A" layer of a Sealy bed you're trying to purchase. I'd bet a dollar to a penny that only 1 out of 10 of BestBuy's best could tell you what RAM timings even are and maybe 1 out of 15 tell you the true figures for any given model. If you try to call emachine's support system and manage to get a person on the other line they are even less likely to know. Part of the reason is no one ever asks. In 35 years I had exactly 3 people ask what the ILD of a specific foam was. All three were former vendors. Perhaps I'm being too defensive but some of these guys are my friends, and former coworkers. Heck, a few of them are due over for laborday beer tonight. -Alex This message was modified Sep 7, 2009 by Alexander
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Alex, I do see your point, but I don't think it is QUITE the same. Computers are much more complex than mattresses. I think knowing what ILD the foams in the mattress are, is more like knowing what type of RAM it is or what type of audio board is in it, and those things they print right on the little paper next to the price at BestBuy, usually. My theory is that the reason mattress store customers do not ask what kinds of foam etc is in it is because the mattress industry has purposely tried to keep us from knowing. Part of their whole way of doing things seems designed to keep us from knowing and from comparing mattresses from one store to another. Is there a good reason, for example, why a mattress at one store made by Sealy is virtually the same as the one at a store across town, but has a different name? In my opinion there should be legislation against this. What if cars were sold this way? Where every dealer had a car wtih a different name? At one Toyota dealer it would be the Corolla and at another the exact same car or maybe all the same except for one minor difference, would be called the Cardoba? IF Sealy P, Spring Air, S&F etc. started naming their mattresses the same thing for the same model across the board, and if they printed a card out and posted it next to the mattress that stated what it was made of, what types of springs and foams and ILD's were in it, wouldn't at least the smarter consumers soon learn to tell the difference in quality, and learn the differences in prices? In other words, "Well, I see here that THIS one is $200 more but it has a layer of latex instead of a layer of PU foam... So what is this latex stuff? Why is it better?" Then the salesperson - who of course WOULD have to learn these things instead of just saying "Go lay on the beds and choose the one that feels best!", would say, "Yes, latex is a much higher quality foam that is rated to last 20 years, whereas the pu foam in the other model will break down within a year or two". I think IF the mattress industry stopped trying to obfuscate the innards of their mattresses and allowed comparison shopping by calling the mattresses by the same names, then consumers WOULD start asking questions, and that is exactly what the mattress co's do not want, because then they'd stop buying junk, or would only buy junk if they absolutely could not afford a higher quality. My whole theory is that people WOULD pay $1500 $2000 for a mattress IF they thought it was WORTH it and if they were assured that the materials inside warranted that kind of money. I am still skeptical as to whether many of the $2000 mattresses Do have insides that make them worth that much money... I would love to see a day when you'd walk into the mattress store and right next to the name of the model of the mattress- which would be the same name as the same mattress across town! - it would show the ingredients from the ground up: 12.5 gauge Bonnell springs with 5 turns, double tempered steel dacron layer over springs 1/2" HR foam, ILD 45 1.5" Talalay Latex, ILD 32 1" 5lb. density memory foam Quilted linen cover tufted to 1/2" soft polyurethane foam By the way, what IS the name of that top cover piece? is it the "quilted top", or what? I hate that thing! Why do they have to make it that way, just to keep it tight so it doesn't look loose on top of the mattress or is it just a custom? To me, it's uncomfortable. I like my mattress top to be as smooth as a piece of foam, or at least - as in the cuddlebed topper I use in the photos above, to feel soft, not feel the tufts. |
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Jim, You bring up an interesting point regarding Mattress sales with your "Just lay on them all!" point. Some RSAs do this. It's born from a lack of self assurance and sometimes expertise. Here's the thinking behind it in example form. Sealy Posturepedic 5-turn Firms are HARD beds. Like bounce a quarter hard. This is due to their reasonably thick 14ga wire being connected by 14ga lace. In short, whenever you press down on one coil, you're pressing down on the 8 coils surrounding it. Couple this with the fact that Sealy zones the middle of their beds with a comparitively firm memory foam and you have a bed you could crack your hip on if you lay down too quickly. Let's pretend you're an RSA. You have a consumer come in and say, "Hard bed! I want the firmest piece you have! Show me your flooring department!" you might take them to this Sealy Posturepedic Firm. The consumer then lies down and bounces right back up saying, "Too soft! I feel like I sink right in!" As the RSA you might think to yourself that this guy wants to sleep on concrete. While you're attempting to come up with a response the consumer sits down on the Simmons Beautyrest right next to it. Now the Simmons firms are considerably softer. Even though they use a thicker gauge steel (13 on the firms) the fact that each coil is individual gives you a more conforming, less hard-floor type of feeling. You're not feeling the pressure of the 8 surrounding coils whenever you press down on 1 like the Sealy. Imagine this consumer sits down on the Simmons and immediately lies back saying, "Wow...now this is nice and firm." Your professional sense and the laws of physics tell you that the consumer is out of their mind. You do not however argue with him. You can't say, "Well Mr. Consumer you're actually incorrect." People tend not to like their salesguy arguing with them. Now imagine you have this happen a lot. Let's say 30% of the time the customer disagrees about the feel of the bed with what you know to be true from personal experimentation and simple logic. Imagine you're relatively new. You might eventually throw logic out the window and decline into a "Just try everything!" attitude. From both the consumer and the RSA's benefits this attitude is wrong...but understandable. A good RSA will ask you a series of questions and narrow your selection down to a few for you to try. Less than five. He might ask these questions outright or he might take the "Eye-doctor" approach of "Which is better? This one or this one?" until he identifies what you're responding to and directs you to those beds. The "Try everything!" approach tends not to work because the beds will all feel the same after about 5. This is useless and counterproductive for both the RSA and the Consumer. The RSA then has a hard time justifying more expensive beds because they all feel the same to the consumer at that point. The consumer runs a high risk of getting the wrong bed because he's been desensitized. In truth, unless the consumer has extensively tried a specific bed and specifically comes in looking for it, the best thing the RSA can do for the consumer is ignore what the consumer THINKS they want. With the exception of a very small minority that has ventured into gritty details, they have no clue. A good RSA will smile, listen to what the consumer thinks they want and then identify what they actually need. A very good RSA will do so without the consumer realizing it. Heh. -Alex |
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Jim, Most major retailers will have cards that have at least some of the information you're looking for. Some small shops don't. I have an old one from my shop lying here it says the following: - 782 Sealy Posturetech coils - 7 zone No Toss and Turn inlay with Visco - Latex - Visco pressure relief - Unicased XT edge support - Silk and wool infused top These cards are attached to the headboards of my former shop and are different for each bed. That's about all the detail they go into and are generally more than enough for most consumers. Most of your larger stores and some of your smaller stores should provide at least this much. So far as the names of the beds being different goes. Well, sometimes the beds are genuinely different by retailer. 5 turn vs 7turn coils, etc. For the most part, however, they're not. The manufacturers have given you a way around this though. Each bed belongs in a series. For example, a Sealy Posturepedic spring mattress belongs in one of 3 categories: -Premier -Reserve -Signature. While not all beds within the same series are identical they do share a lot more in common within a category than without. So if you're shopping at Mattressplace X and you find a Sealy Signature Great River Rapids or whatever and you go to the competitor who tries to convince you that the Sealy Reserve Arbor Morning is the same bed, you can be assured that he's full of it. If he instead shows you a Sealy Signature Giant Floating Dragon (all these names made up) you can at least know they share a lot in common. Simmons Beautyrest uses classifications: -Classic -Worldclass -Exceptionale -Black All Simmons spring mattresses will be called one of these regardless of where you shop. Knowing these categories helps you cross shop. -Alex
This message was modified Sep 7, 2009 by Alexander
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Jim: Great post. Your concept of how the major manufacturers of mattresses should try and sell their product, parallels mine exactly. Alex: You did not address Jim's position. You give a very nice mattress store managers perspective on why some salespeople become disillusioned with prospective customers who don’t know what they’re doing when purchasing a mattress. But you failed to answer what Jim is trying to say. Namely, why don’t the major manufacturers of mattresses be honest with the buying public about what their product contains and allow the buying public to price shop the various mattresses in their vicinity? I don’t think you can blame people for blaming mattress companies when it comes to deceptive selling practices. They’ve been at this a very long time, and they’ve made a lot of money doing it. Until the government steps in and makes them do it, I don’t think we’re going to see any change. Now I do not like government intervention anymore than anyone else. But when you get a large financially strong entity opposing people who do not have financial resources to fight them, who is it that can make them behave. The federal government. The only other thing would be if Jimsocial and I were both to win the lottery and become very wealthy, let’s say three quarters of $1 billion. Then we could hire you, with your superior knowledge of mattresses to help us run a company that would produce mattresses with absolute honesty and integrity on a national basis. How long do you think it would take before Sealy manufacturing did everything it could to buy us out and shut us down? This message was modified Sep 7, 2009 by eagle2
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Eagle, Please see my above post in how to price shop between mattresses. Please also see the same post on the amount of information most retailers and manufacturers do provide. -Alex |
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Alexander wrote: Eagle, Please see my above post in how to price shop between mattresses. Please also see the same post on the amount of information most retailers and manufacturers do provide. -Alex Alex: although the times shown are separated by several min. I did not see your last post that was just before mine, before I posted. Cross posting? Well it's fine to learn all the business about different naming procedures, but wouldn't it be a lot more simple to just keep the same names for the mattresses manufactured for all the different locations? For me this is indefensible, and nothing but subterfuge. I can understand your defensive posture Alex, you're currently living, in large measure I would assume, from the proceeds of 35 years of selling mattresses. It does tend to make one "supportive" of the industry ( no pun intended). It is obvious you do not feel that the manufacturing industry is doing anything wrong. Jim and I, and many others on this forum, believe that this industry has operated, for far two long, in a rather foggy environment. I would like to see something done about it. Alex: I hope I do not appear offensive, but I can't help but be open and frank about how I feel regarding this issue. This message was modified Sep 7, 2009 by eagle2
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The bottom line here is that I understand Alex's perspective but the bottom line is that things need to be changed in the mattress industry. It's simply NOT consumer friendly and actually creates confusion and encourages deceptive practices. Alex says, "Okay you know if it's a Signature it's this and if it's a this, it's that" (paraphrasing is easier than going back and copying and pasting, here). But the bottom line is, this should not be necessary at all. It should just be clear from the stats posted next to the same model name and prices what we are buying. Period. Just like computers at Best Buy: If the customer knows nothing about computers, he goes in and asks the salesman to recommend something based on what he thinks he wants. The salesman then can do as Alex says and point him to what he knows the customer REALLY needs, or let the customer buy what he thinks he wants. But for the rest of us, who do want to learn a little and comparison shop based on facts and research, it should all be laid out as I said above: Springs, foams, types and ILD's of foam on a card next to the mattress. Period. This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by jimsocal
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Interesting thread. I hope your mattress is sleeping better, Jim! Alex, your posts are also interesting, but since I am also one who has gone through so many beds and ended up with sore back time and again(and have given the beds with as little as three months of use to friends and family who also find them painful), I beg to differ with your assertation that only a few people are dissatisfied with their bed purchase. There just typically is no recourse. I could go through all of my past bed woes but I don't feel like boring you. I did not purchase "low end" beds, but instead, mid-range beds, around $2K each...and still got back pain from the use of the cheap P/U foam. That's why I finally went back to a bed made by an actual person who did what I asked. I'm much improved now. IME when you buy a top of the line bed you are paying for more foam. You rarely sleep anywhere near the springs anymore. So, what is the secret to the comfort of your bed? You must know the layers and springs....how are they different than the others? Kait This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by Kait
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