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Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)... As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it. Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back. So I did surgery on it tonight.  I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. I did expect more from Englander... I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside!  What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands... On top of the 1 and 5/16 inches of soft junky pu foam, there was the whatchacallit, the top sewn into tufts, whatever they call that thing. (What kind of a mattress expert am I??! I can never remember the name of that top piece!  ) I removed that too because it's just the same cheap junky foam sewn together with a cloth and tufted...(By the way, if you buy the Malibu PLUSH instead of the Malibu FIRM, know what you get? Instead of 1 and 5/16" of junky pu foam, you get about 5" of junky pu foam! That must REALLY hurt people's backs!) This kind of mattress construction - which all the major companies are using, now, STINKS! PU foam = Peee Eww!  So, I took off ALL the foam, and then replaced it with this, from bottom up: 1" of zoned HR foam: top = medium, middle = firm, and bottom = very firm (feet area doesn't really matter, imho) 3/4" of medium-soft latex (Talalay - not certain of the ILD - maybe 24 or 28?) 1" of Venus foam So it's about the same amount of foam as it had - now 2 and 3/4 instead of just 2" - but the main difference is that now I have QUALITY foam on top of the springs, foam that gives SUPPORT as well as softness. Will post more as the experiment progresses... I'll be playing around with this combination, see how it feels. My wife has something very similar to this on top of her Sealy springs, and she likes it pretty well.- P.S. the springs seem to feel pretty good. I can't say for sure though until I've slept on them with good foam for a while This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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This is getting very interesting reading this thread. I do agree about mattresses today being full of crummy foam. I have been through many beds myself that I wasted money on. Furniture is the same way now. A recliner I bought (same brand just several months later) has cheaper foam in it, and cheaper vinyl in it. I can see the foam has indentations already, and it is still new! Any way companies can save money and use cheaper components that is what they seem to be doing now. It is very discouraging to even spend you hard earned money on new items. As for computers, all the salepeople had to do to tell you who makes a component is to look at the floor model and use the software (can't remember exactly where it is on a Windows computer now) the machine came with to see system components. It is there! That is how I could see what brand hard drive I had, or even the wireless card. It is true that websites of the S companies do not list their components in detail, I have tried to find out myself many of time. I will say Sealey Truform (like Tempurpedic) did list the lb. of foam so that is a surprise. But the bed still sucked for me. After several months I was in pain, and I mean really bad pain. I hope your new bed works good for you Jim. I am still trying to get my layers of latex, memory foam to work for me. Thanks Alex for doing research and being open minded about the problems with the mattress industry. There are major problems with them. I have heard countless people saying they just bought a bed and they hated it and wished they had kept the old one! We are not alone. This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by Leo3
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Alexander wrote: I was out on errands today that happened to take me by a Bestbuy. Remembering our conversation earlier, I went to the computer department and was promptly greeted by a smiling young man in a blue polo. He asked if he could help me. I replied yes, that I'd like to ask him a few questions about about the eMachine here. He smiled and began to tell me how it was a good machine for light gaming, photo work and web surfing. At the end I asked him if I could ask him a few more questions. I asked him what the average core temp was under a medium graphical load. He stared at me like I'd grown a nose out of my forehead (perhaps he didn't expect an older man to understand anything about these new-fangled computawhatsits?) I asked my question again saying that it was important because I did a lot of home video editing and I had warped the motherboard of my last PC due to ventilation problems with the box. He said he didn't know but would ask his supervisor. He returned with a taller boy who explained to me that they weren't given that information. I asked him if he could tell me where I could find it. He recommended some programs that monitor internal CPU temp and suggested I buy the computer and try them. [edited shorter by jimsocal]Alex, I think I said this before, but I want to say it again: I don't think it's a fair comparison. Like I said, computers DO have the basic technical details listed, at least on the medium range models at BB. I have not looked at the cheapest models so maybe they do not. But like a middle of the road $800 machine like an HP or Dell - they do list the Type of Ram (dual layer DDR or whatever), the Chip type and speed, the amount of Ram and the size of the hard drive and type of DVD and OS and usually a few other things. There are enough DETAILS there to make an informed decision, and usually you can find a sales person to get more info OR find it on the web site of BB or the manufacturer. Frankly, I am a "power user" of computers yet I do not know what the average core temperature is or should be. I don't do gaming or editing on mine, so that is why. And a serious gamer or editor would not be buying a low end model computer, they'd be buying a high end model. That's one thing. Also, the info IS available for all but the most obscure details, if you go to the manufacturer or the web site. Not true with mattresses! So I don't think the analogy of asking re core temp of a computer is exactly the same as asking the mattress store about what types and ILD's of foam are in their mattresses. I think asking about the core temp of a computer is more like asking a mattress store where the steel of the springs was imported from or what temperature it was baked at... in other words these are indeed unusual details that one does not need to know. There may be SOMEONE who feels the need to know, and it would be nice if that info too were available, but I'd be happy if they'd just tell me the types and firmnesses and thicknesses of the foams. Since a mattress is made up of much fewer components than a computer, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to ask what types and firmnesses of foams are in it or what type and make of springs are in it. Those are two MOST BASIC components of a bed, not outlandish details for "power sleepers". Every bed has them and every bed's comfort is largely based on those 2 components: coils and foams. So it's not unreasonable for everyone to know those specific details. I was trying to use your computer analogy previously because you brought it up, and I do think going to buy a computer and not knowing the BASIC details of how much RAM and how much hard drive and what speed of chip it has, is similar to asking what type of firmnesses of foam a mattress has. But your question about core temps is exagerrated, I think. These things WOULD be important to using a computer for gaming or editing, BUT again, anyone really into that would be buying a higher end computer and I bet that info is available even at Best Buy if you are willing to wait a day or two for them to call the company etc. or if you call the company as I called Englander and the Englander factory (with almost no info given). I just don't think that computers are the best analogy to mattresses. I wish someone would come up with a more similar product to compare mattresses to; to me it's more like buying a blanket or comforter or clothing or shoes maybe. But unfortunately those aren't good analogies either because shoes and comforters usually are much much less $ than a mattress. Anything I spend a third or more of my life with, on an intimate basis, laying down with it every night with it next to my body, I think I am entitled to know quite a bit about!  |
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This whole business of trying to analogize a mattress to anything is dodging the issue of this conversation. The whole point of this thread is the idea that the mattress industry does not want to say specifically what is in their product. They do not want the buying public to be able to price shop a mattress. This is the reason that they maintain the “naming convention” of all their mattresses from one distributor to another. The truth is the major manufacturers of mattresses do not want you to really know what you’re purchasing. They don’t want you to be adequately informed so that you can compare it to some other companies mattress and the price thereof. Go to any one of the major manufacturers of 100% organic natural latex mattresses and you find all kinds of information that is quite specific to your purchase. When the major manufacturers do this, then I will believe that they want to compete in the marketplace and do right by their customers. As far as I’m concerned, comparing mattresses to computers and shoes, or anything else, has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion at hand. This message was modified Sep 9, 2009 by eagle2
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Alright I've concluded my experiment. I called three local mattress stores around town that all carried Sealy products. I posed as a mattress shopper and told them I was interested in a Sealy Posturepedic Signature series bed. I asked them the following questions: - What type of coil is in the mattress and can you describe it to me? - What is the gauge of the coil? - What types of foams are in the mattress? - What kind of ticking is in the mattress? Every single one of places I called gave me the correct information to these four questions. One guy had to ask another salesman for the gauge of the coil. This information is enough for 99% of the consumer world to make a buying decision. Just for Jim though I asked the following followups -Can you tell me the exact thickness of each layer of foam? -Can you tell me the ILDs of the PU, PE, and Latex and the Density of the Memory Foam? Two of the places knew the thickness of each layer. One guy wasn't sure but said he could find out for me. One of the three places knew the density of the memory foam. None of them knew the ILDs. I asked them whether they'd ever been asked the ILD of the foam before. They said no. So those are the conclusions of my experiment. The basic information is there. The salesguy is happy to give it to you. So far as the small technical details go, I wonder how useful they are. All beds within a manufacturer are going to use the same ILD foam if it's called the same thing. For example, "Seal Supersoft Foam" is the same ILD regardless of the specific model of the bed it's in. So you can't use ILDs to shop within a manufacturer. Now they may vary between manufacturers but how much use is that? Let's say for example you're comparison a Sealy and a Simmons mattress. All the foam layers are the same except the Talalay in the Simmons is 30 and the Talalay in the Sealy is 25. What does this information tell you? You might attempt to interpret this as saying that the Simmons will be a firmer bed and the Sealy a softer. You'd be wrong. The individual coil system in the Simmons will give it a sinkier, softer feeling despite the fact that the top layer is a higher ILD. Neither is universally more suportive. Now you might say that's not a fair comparison. After all if you do your research on the coils (information that IS available in the stores) you'd know that the interlaced coils of the Sealys are a deeper, firmer touch than the Individual coils of a Simmons. Okay, Let's take something closer. The Stearns and Foster Core series uses a Marshall coil that is the Non-Simmons version of the Simmons type coil. Let's take the same situation as above except with the softer ILD being on the Stearns. Well, they have the same basic coil design so SURELY the Stearns is softer, right? No. You'd be wrong again. The Stearns uses a 14ga coil to the Simmons 15.25ga thereby making it a considerably firmer touch. Even if we used the 13ga Simmons firm coils, the Stearns coils are STILL going to be firmer even with the softer ILD foam because of the different tempering process Stearns uses. My point is that knowing the ILD of the foam or the density of the memory foam doesn't really provide any information that would be useful in your buying decision. That, more than anything, is why it's not available. |
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Eagle, I agree with you, the foam analogy to computers or shoes or anything really doesn't work very well. Alex's point seems to be that since we don't know about EVERY technical detail of computers, we don't need to know it about mattresses either, and that most people don't even want to know what's in their mattress anyway. I disagree. I think that an educated mattress buyer should have the right to ask questions and get answers. I submit that your "experiment", Alex does not represent a cross section of mattress stores across the country. Don't know where you live but I doubt most of them have sales people as knowledgeable as you, or the ones you talked to. While I may not be able to tell how firm a mattress is by knowing the guage of springs and types of foams, I can get some idea of the Quality of the mattress if I can see that it does not have cheap PU foam in it. And as to the springs, if I know what type they are then I can lay on several different companies' beds with that type and see if I can feel the differences. Thus I may come to realize "I like a good firm offset coil", or "I like a good soft pocket coil" (though personally I am skeptcial that these hold up very long so would be reluctant to buy one even if I liked it). If I know how the spring is made and tempered etc. I can also find out from people on forums like these, who also have back problems similar to mine, what works for them, and try to buy the same type of coil system. You see, knowledge is power. Knowing what is in a mattress helps the educated consumer to make an informed decision - knowledge plus experience of how it feels. I stand firmly by my opinion that the mattress industry should be forced to reveal what is in their mattresses, give as much detail as possible so people who care can make an informed choice. If I don't want low quality pu foam in my bed (and who does?) then I should be able to easily see where the price point is at which there will be no cheap pu foam. If I want pure HR foam and latex in my bed, then I should be able to look around at the store and see if there are any that have only HR foam and latex. If I further want to know if it's a 28 or 36ILD latex, I should be able to find out - at LEAST if I ask (i.e. it would not HAVE to be printed on a card next to the bed, necessarily). What eagle said is true: When I went to look at latex and organic beds, I was told exactly what was in them, the types of foams, the types of springs, the material of the cover, the ILD of the latex... But the mattress companies (S brands) do not want to tell us, in fact they seem to go out of their way to not allow us to compare one mattress to another from store to store. Alex, I wonder if you'd care to comment on WHY the mattress companies have different names at different stores. When did that start and why? And is it really a PROBLEM for a mattress company to print out a spec sheet and say what types and thicknesses and ILD's of foams are used? Is it that difficult to do? If not, then what would the reason for not doing it be, other than to keep that info from being known? My main thing about buying mattresses is that I would not want to buy anything that had cheap non-supportive pu foam in it. On a positive note, I stopped in briefly at a Serta store the other day. I told the guy I was not interested in buying right now but just was researching and had some questions. He wasn't busy so he offered to play along. I asked him what kinds of springs were used in the different Serta models. Lo and behold, he had examples of the 2 types of springs used and he explained them to me. I then asked what would be the firmest bed he had and he told me, and I then asked what type of foam it had on top. He honestly told me that it was "just regular pu foam". So I assume from what he said that it would be very similar to the Englander above. It seems that finding a bed that does not have a bunch of PU foam on it is pretty hard unless it has a bunch of memory foam instead. My take on memory foam is that unless it's Tempurpedic, it breaks down VERY fast. By "break down" I mean what Kait said in the tother thread, that it stops being supportive. There may be little or no visible difference, but I can feel after as little as 2-5 nights, that it has lost some of its ability to support me (I am around 180 and 5'10".) Anyway, I was impressed with the fact that the guy had models of the springs to show me, and was honest about some of his beds just having PU foam in them. I did not ask what type of pu foam was in it but the way he said it seemed to indicate that it was low quality pu foam. Next time I am in the area and if he's just sitting there looking lonely I'm going to go in and ask him a few more questions, see if he has anything wtih HD or HR foam in it without the cheap pu foam, and see if he knows what ILD's. |
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Jim, I'll leave Eagle and yourself to your crusade then. Perhaps you'll change the industry from this forum. In regards to mattresses with different names, the manufacturers DO put the basic model of the mattress on the foot of the bed. You can use these models to cross shop. In Simmons they're called Classic, World Class, Exceptionale, and Black. In Sealy they're called Premier, Reserve, Signature, and Natural Origins. Now there are some minor differences between beds within a specific model. For example, one World Class might use dacron while the other uses silk and wool in the ticking. One Exceptionale might have a latex top while the other has a memory foam but these differences are obvious and usually printed on the card next to the bed. For the most part the beds are similar enough for you to comparison shop. Also no retailer that I've ever come in contact with that has a price match policy in this industry requires that the bed be the same name. Same features and manufacturer is all that's needed. -Alex |
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Alex, you seem very professional, knowledgeable and patient and customers would probably be well served to buy a mattress from you. However, I think you're overlooking the obvious dissatisfaction that many people here are expressing and that it indicates something is wrong. While the focus of this thread has become about the lack of specific information about construction, I think the more central problem is a lack of quality construction that will last. For example, my wife and I spent a lot of time and effort purchasing a quality mattress less than 3 years ago. I'm a huge product researcher and have had a subscription to Consumer Reports for over 20 years. We bought a top of the line Sterns and Foster and spending a lot of time laying on mattresses. For the last year we've been dealing with ever increasing depressions in the mattresses that are causing a lot of discomfort for both of us. We finally complained to the store and they had an official reviewer visit us. He was a knowledgeable pleasant person that carefully measured the depressions. Using his method (with no weight on the bed) he measured a 7/8" depression. He said the warranty required 1.5" depression for replacement. I can't imagine how badly the bed would sleep to meet that requirement. We have a combined weight of less than 300 lb. He also said that he saw an incredible number of mattresses that were not meeting life expectancies. He thought the problem was with the change of making mattresses from the bottom up, instead of inside out. Previously mattresses could be flipped which would allow the padding time to recover and last much longer. Now they just wear out. Anyway, back to the OP --> Thanks so much for the detailed description and pictures!! Being a DYI guy I was going to try this. You've given me a lot more confidence and knowledge on how to proceed. Questions: 1) Is putting the bottom layer of different zones a common practice? It seems it means you couldn't rotate the mattress. 2) Is it possible to just turn the mattress over and build up new padding so that the mattress doesn't have to be cut? Or does the way the springs are manufactured prevent this? This message was modified Sep 11, 2009 by twalkman
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Twalkman, My experience too. Not only that, but my person told the company that my issue was that I didn't have the proper support from my frame, which was total bs because I had the exact set up that their website and glossy materials said to have. Grrrrr. I have been told that after Hurricane Katrina the foam industry had some bad foam out there for awhile because the foam was primarily made in that area, but who knows. Does not explain current beds. Kait |
| Okay Jim you have had 10 days now on your setup. How is it feeling now? |
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Leo3 wrote: Okay Jim you have had 10 days now on your setup. How is it feeling now? It's still WAY better than a) my pure foam mattress and b) the way it came to me from the store. I'm still experimenting with various foam combinations, but I think I'm starting to figure some things out as far as getting it to be as "perfect" as it can be with these springs. These springs may not be the best for me... or they may... I am not sure. All I know is that this is the best set up I've had in years... it's just not "perfect" for me yet. But remember I have a VERY messed up back and shoulders and neck... so it may not be even possible for me to reach "perfection". But yeah, way better now. Springs are best for my back. Quality springs + quality foam = quality bed. |