MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)... As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it. Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back. So I did surgery on it tonight.  I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. I did expect more from Englander... I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside!  What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands... On top of the 1 and 5/16 inches of soft junky pu foam, there was the whatchacallit, the top sewn into tufts, whatever they call that thing. (What kind of a mattress expert am I??! I can never remember the name of that top piece!  ) I removed that too because it's just the same cheap junky foam sewn together with a cloth and tufted...(By the way, if you buy the Malibu PLUSH instead of the Malibu FIRM, know what you get? Instead of 1 and 5/16" of junky pu foam, you get about 5" of junky pu foam! That must REALLY hurt people's backs!) This kind of mattress construction - which all the major companies are using, now, STINKS! PU foam = Peee Eww!  So, I took off ALL the foam, and then replaced it with this, from bottom up: 1" of zoned HR foam: top = medium, middle = firm, and bottom = very firm (feet area doesn't really matter, imho) 3/4" of medium-soft latex (Talalay - not certain of the ILD - maybe 24 or 28?) 1" of Venus foam So it's about the same amount of foam as it had - now 2 and 3/4 instead of just 2" - but the main difference is that now I have QUALITY foam on top of the springs, foam that gives SUPPORT as well as softness. Will post more as the experiment progresses... I'll be playing around with this combination, see how it feels. My wife has something very similar to this on top of her Sealy springs, and she likes it pretty well.- P.S. the springs seem to feel pretty good. I can't say for sure though until I've slept on them with good foam for a while This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Leo3 wrote: Okay Jim you have had 10 days now on your setup. How is it feeling now? It's still WAY better than a) my pure foam mattress and b) the way it came to me from the store. I'm still experimenting with various foam combinations, but I think I'm starting to figure some things out as far as getting it to be as "perfect" as it can be with these springs. These springs may not be the best for me... or they may... I am not sure. All I know is that this is the best set up I've had in years... it's just not "perfect" for me yet. But remember I have a VERY messed up back and shoulders and neck... so it may not be even possible for me to reach "perfection". But yeah, way better now. Springs are best for my back. Quality springs + quality foam = quality bed. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
| Have you posted your mattress surgery pictures? I'm looking for them! :) |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
| Jim, tell me what changes have you made. I can learn from this, I have a torn rotator cuff, problem hip, and if I am not careful with getting the bed to soft for these ailments a bad back! I am glad it is an improvement at least. I too wonder if I will ever have perfection. If my hips and shoulders are happy, my back is not. If my back is happy the hips and shoulders hurt! |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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BeddyBye, the pix are HERE - make sure you choose to expand this very thread to see ALL! TWalkman, no, you cannot start from the bottom I don't think. I am pretty sure the springs nowadays are designed for using only the top. If you have an old double sided mattress, then okay... As to zoning, you can still turn the mattress from head to foot, just by keeping the middle the same and making sure the upper 3rd and lower 3rd are the same. Since in my experience the lower 3rd does not matter, you can put it the same as the top 3rd. Some swear by zoning and some don't need it. I am not convinced I need it and in fact that is one of the changes I will make. Leo, I'm a very odd case as far as sleeping which is why I HAVE to have a DIY mattress! I have the same issues you mentioned: if I get it good for my shoulder, then my lower back sometimes hurts and vice versa. It's hard to get it right all over. Then, sometimes I get it right for a few nights, then it hurts me again... It seems my body is always changing; i.e; one part hurts more one night, another part hurts more another night and it's hard to keep up with it. I have a ton of different foams of different ILD's and thicknesses from experimenting over the years. Many of them I've cut into 3rds so I can zone or not zone. So in changing my mattress I sometimes put memory foam UNDER latex, or sometimes even memory foam under the HR foam, with latex on top, or maybe some memory foam just under the latex. Right now I am going to experiment with an extra layer of 1" HR foam just like the layer I have now, except it will be 2" instead of 1" and maybe only the bottom 1" will be zoned. How's that for fancy?! I just try to think outside the box, and maybe I'll make a great discovery some day. Maybe I'll be the George Washington Carver of mattresses! So the experiment goes on. Actually last night the configuration I had - and how my body was - caused me to wake up a little sore. So I'll try something different. I keep trying various things but I am almost convinced that I will NEVER have a mattress that is great for more than a few days or a week. I constantly have to change it. Maybe I'm insane.  But I don't really think so. I just think I have back /neck/ shoulder problems that no doctor has been able to diagnose or fix but it's obvious even to them that I DO have real, physical problems, they just don't know what they are or how to fix them. So, as a result of this, since I cannot adjust my back/shoulders to normalcy, I am left with just adjusting my mattress to accomodate my back/shoulder abnormalcy! But I keep thinking... "maybe SOME day I'll find The Answer!"  This message was modified Sep 16, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
| Keep trying, Jim! You're doing a great job, and you're bound to find the perfect configuration at some point. :) |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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No Jim you are not nuts if you are in pain, you are in pain. I am trying zoning, I cut my firm latex and soft latex and memory foam in thirds. I have the firm at the lowest third since that doesn't matter. But I don't have loads of different latex and foams to try. For two months I was happy with my setup, then suddenly my hips and shoulders were hurting. That is disappointing when you think you got it right. By the way I have 23ILD talalay latex and that is the softest I think I would want. I have the Brylane latex and that is too soft, you just sink in to the next layer and don't get the benefits of anything (that is my opinion). You were looking for even softer than 20ILD I thought I read. Just my opinion. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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You might be right, Leo, about a softer latex being too soft. But it is one thing I've never tried so I feel I owe it to myself to try it. I would only use 1 or 1½ ", no more. How thick is your soft latex? Wanna sell it? I know what you mean about thinking you have it right and then finding a month or so down the road that it begins to hurt. I have had that happen several times. One general rule I am finding (this works for ME, and I guess it only applies to those who feel the need for Springs under them) is that if I put too much foam on top of my springs, it does not work at all. I have to access the flexibility of the springs and if I put too much foam I lose that. It could be that some day I may try pocket coils again if I can find someone who makes a good one for not too much money, or if I could find a very SLIGHTLY used one to buy, to try. Two nights ago, just for an experiment I added another inch of HR foam to the mix, so I had 2" of HR foam instead of one inch under my 3/4" of latex and 1" of Venus foam. It was just too much foam, it killed my back! I then took the extra 1" of HR foam layer out , and added my wool mattress cover, and it was much better. But now it seems to lack just a LITTLE more softness. I am going to try an old crappy 3/4" memory foam layer or even a 3/4"PU layer, just to add a little more softness and see if that helps. But it seems that for me, anything more than 1" of medium firm or firmer foam is just too much. 1" seems to be the right amount, followed by some softer foams as "toppers".* *However, it COULD be that if I had latex instead of HR foam, I could go with a little more of it...? I'd also like to try various latex ILD's and types (such as Dunlop) but I don't have them and hate to spend the $ right now. This message was modified Sep 18, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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In reply to your last posting....you are correct that too much foam will negate the springs...I think you have found the magical number for inches of layering over the springs...but now just need to get the layers correct. Too much foam will cause the low backache, IME. It is such a trick to get it right for the shoulders and hips without losing the support. For me, the support is IN the hip area, because that is what causes the low back ache. If it is too soft, then my hips get too much lower than my body and my low back tries to lift it up all night. Oddly enough, mattresses that address the lumbar region always seem to offer support at the low back, not the butt. OTOH, the hip/butt area also has to be soft enough to be comfortable. A real conundrum. In my bed, there are inches of cotton batting over the springs(offset coils) and then 4" of foam on top of that. Must be pretty high quality polyfoam because it took forever to break it in. Added a polyfill topper and it is good. IME, I don't like the feel of the pocket coils I've slept on (last bed had them)as much as the offset coils. They are typically thinner wire and for me, seemed to sink without pushing back up as much as the offset. But again, just my opinion. Hope this helps. Kait |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Jim, thanks for all the information, it is really helping me quite a bit. So where did you find your Englander mattress? I went around to a few stores here this weekend, and only a couple of them had Englander mattresses. The lowest spring gauge i could find was 12-3/4. What I want is the cheapest Englander mattress I can find with 12.5 gauge coil (cal-king size). I'm guessing i can find something for under $800. Then I will add the cuddle-topper from Costco. Then i will wait a few weeks or months like yourself, and if I can back pain or discomfort, I will start the mattress surgery. i am completely convinced that the expensive mattresses are a scam. They might be slightly better, but nothing to justify the cost. And after seeing the surgery pictures, there's no rocket science to these things. it's clear that the mattress industry gets by because of a purposeful lack of information to customers. It is very simply springs and foam, covered by fancy stitching. Here's another example. My parents are more well to do than I am. My mom bought a cal-king Chattam & Wells mattress. Sometimes, my mom is not the most rational person in the world, but she's pretty good when it comes to shopping. However, she's the type where she will not admit that the bed is uncomfortable if she spent $4000 on it because that would mean she was wrong about something. So there's a lot of psychology involved with these expensive mattresses, and the companies know it. Somewhere in this thread, it was said that 78% of people who bought an expensive mattress were highly satisfied or something. I call BS to that. I think, sure, the mattress might be a little better, but i think there's a lot of psychology involved there because the people do not want to admit that their expensive investment sucks. I think those statistics are highly unreliable. now, back to my mom's mattress...before I even bought my cal-king mattress, i slept on it for a few nights. My back hurt after anything more than 7 hours rest. Now, I have never had back pain in my life! Up to that time, I had been sleeping in a little twin bed (firm, Ethan Allen) my whole life, which is silly because I'm 6'3" and don't even really fit in it. So, that made me wonder. I looked at the mattress and I could see a noticeable sag, not that bad though. It was a very plush pillowtop mattress, so of course there was going to be sag. The sag makes my back hurt, I'm sure of it. So later, my dad, who had been sleeping on another full-size pillowtop (cheaper brand), starting having his back hurt because of it. My dad has at least some history of back problems, and he's older, so it obviously affects him more. He told me that it was so bad sometimes that he couldn't even walk for half the day. So he started sleeping on the ground, which was better for him (although not a great, by any means). I told him to try the old firm twin I used. he tried it and said it was better than the ground, but not great. Then, he went back to the cal-king expensive mattress, and he said that's been the best so far, although not awesome. So, according to my dad, the expensive mattress was the best. However!! I don't get much out of the situation, because all the beds my dad tried (except for my old twin) were these very plush pillowtops. I think pillowtops are horrible because you never know where the sag is coming from; the plush or the springs? And after seeing the mattress surgery pictures, I can't be sure of anything now. but Jim is right, there needs to be something done about the mattress industry. I've never seen such little information about products I've tried to research. The entire industry can go to hell as far as I'm concerned, or at least have a huge makeover. They are messing with our minds. They know it's such a huge item physically that there is stres involved in returning/exchanging it. They also know that foams and springs break down slowly enough where several weeks of comfort can pass before any discomfort occurs. Their 10-year warranties mean nothing, because it has to do with only materials and defects...but since nobody knows what the materials are, all the power is in the hands of the manufacturers, so warranties don't mean a thing. And the warranty is void if you open the mattress up. They put all that nice stitching around the mattrress to make it look good, and that's all just for looks. I hate this mattress industry so much. So that's why my plan is this, based on Jim's information and my experiences: --Buy a Cal-King mattress with 12.5 gauge springs for as cheap as possible (do I care about spring count?). NO PILLOWTOP OR PLUSH (although this is very hard to find). --I'll sleep on it for a while. --Once it starts causing discomfort, it's mattress surgery time. --Experiment with my foam layers, use a cuddle-topper from Costco to cover up the damage. Total shouldn't cost me more than $1000. And I bet the mattress will be better than any expenisve store mattress. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Kait wrote: In reply to your last posting....you are correct that too much foam will negate the springs...I think you have found the magical number for inches of layering over the springs...but now just need to get the layers correct. Too much foam will cause the low backache, IME. It is such a trick to get it right for the shoulders and hips without losing the support. For me, the support is IN the hip area, because that is what causes the low back ache. If it is too soft, then my hips get too much lower than my body and my low back tries to lift it up all night. Oddly enough, mattresses that address the lumbar region always seem to offer support at the low back, not the butt. OTOH, the hip/butt area also has to be soft enough to be comfortable. A real conundrum. Kait, you are the main person who convinced me to try springs, as I recall - ceratinly one of them - so thank you for that! I'm waking up much more rested and with less pain than I have since my last car accident 13 months ago.In my bed, there are inches of cotton batting over the springs(offset coils) and then 4" of foam on top of that. Must be pretty high quality polyfoam because it took forever to break it in. Added a polyfill topper and it is good. IME, I don't like the feel of the pocket coils I've slept on (last bed had them)as much as the offset coils. They are typically thinner wire and for me, seemed to sink without pushing back up as much as the offset. But again, just my opinion. Hope this helps. Kait IF I end up buying new springs I may try your "offset" type. The reason I went with the Englander was because I had slept on them once and liked them. And so far they do seem fine. One thing I am noticing (I think) is that the springs are getting softer and more comfortable already (only a month or so). It's hard to tell for sure because I also have changed the foam on top several times. Here is what is working for me now: 1" of HR foam on the bottom - NOT zoned; all Medium ILD. 1" of Venus Memory foam on top of the HR 3/4" of latex probably 20-28ILD, not sure; probably Talalay 1-2" of a wool mattress cover on top of all that. This last step has made a big difference for me. Using the wool instead of the Cuddlebed is just working better. It was a very expensive wool cover that I bought on sale years ago at Flobeds. It's from St. John's Woolen and I think we paid around $200 for the King but now they're closer to $350. I think it may have been advertised as 2 - 2.5" thick but when you lay on it it goes down to like ½. However it makes everything much cooler in summer (and from my previous use, also warmer in winter). Also it seems to "protect" me a bit from the feel of the latex which isn't always a good feeling, to me. And I have found that using memory foam as a lower layer works better for me, than having it near or on the top. Since I bought the King wool pad, and then switched to 2 twins instead of a King, we had not really used the wool for years. So finally I took the plunge and got out the scissors and cut it in half. Now I am using it with one side open but soon will pay someone to sew it up for me. I was afraid cutting it would somehow ruin it, but it was no problem at all. |