MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)... As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it. Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back. So I did surgery on it tonight.  I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. I did expect more from Englander... I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside!  What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands... On top of the 1 and 5/16 inches of soft junky pu foam, there was the whatchacallit, the top sewn into tufts, whatever they call that thing. (What kind of a mattress expert am I??! I can never remember the name of that top piece!  ) I removed that too because it's just the same cheap junky foam sewn together with a cloth and tufted...(By the way, if you buy the Malibu PLUSH instead of the Malibu FIRM, know what you get? Instead of 1 and 5/16" of junky pu foam, you get about 5" of junky pu foam! That must REALLY hurt people's backs!) This kind of mattress construction - which all the major companies are using, now, STINKS! PU foam = Peee Eww!  So, I took off ALL the foam, and then replaced it with this, from bottom up: 1" of zoned HR foam: top = medium, middle = firm, and bottom = very firm (feet area doesn't really matter, imho) 3/4" of medium-soft latex (Talalay - not certain of the ILD - maybe 24 or 28?) 1" of Venus foam So it's about the same amount of foam as it had - now 2 and 3/4 instead of just 2" - but the main difference is that now I have QUALITY foam on top of the springs, foam that gives SUPPORT as well as softness. Will post more as the experiment progresses... I'll be playing around with this combination, see how it feels. My wife has something very similar to this on top of her Sealy springs, and she likes it pretty well.- P.S. the springs seem to feel pretty good. I can't say for sure though until I've slept on them with good foam for a while This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Jim; Glad the springs are helping. There is just a different feel of support with them than with plain foam. I was also thinking that people who pay big bucks for a product typically don't complain about it much, because in so many people's minds, you get more if you pay more. But what you pay for something often has no relevance to how it will perform or last!!! I believe in getting the most for the least possible, BUT won't accept crap. In this economy it is so important to get value for your hard earned money, waste needs to be a thing of the past. Spending thousands of dollars, multiple times, on beds that don't perform and actually cause chronic back pain is just unacceptable. I met a nice woman who lived across from my parent' s old house when we were moving my mom out. She had crippling, chronic back pain. Slept on a Tempurpedic mattress. I cringed. But, because those things cost so much money, and there is so much hype surrounding them, she didn't think that the mattress could POSSIBLY be part of her problem. I did try to tell her, but to no avail. Actually, my topper is not actually a Cuddlebed...it is a mattress topper that is a down-like poly-fill mat, several inches thick. No foam in it. It is washable and fluffs pretty nicely but it does tend to flatten out in my problem area. So I have to fluff it up every couple of weeks or so. I don't have a Costco membership...there isn't enough that I'd save money on to justify the purchase of the card(toldja I was cheap!). The offset coils are just a bit different than the Bonnell. The tops of the coils stick up a bit, and give a bit of a different feel. I think it depends on how the wires are attached. I have had long discussions with Bill about this, but still as clear as mud. Kait |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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"-Well, as a hard core believer in DIY mattress surgery, I agree. I hope it works out for you. The more people that do this, the more common it will become, and the more common it becomes, the less the mattress companies can get away with selling junky foam hidden inside expensive mattresses. That's the ultimate consumer's revenge against them. And if the springs are well made you should be able to keep your mattress going for 10-20 years by just replacing the foam. Also, the Firms are cheaper than the pillowtops, so that's less of an expense for you and less profit to the company!" It is terrible how much awful garbage is inside your average mattress. I am glad I got a whole latex for me and my wife but not yet sure whats the best topper. But in any case the key is to make sure the core is solid. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Kait wrote: Jim; Glad the springs are helping. There is just a different feel of support with them than with plain foam. I was also thinking that people who pay big bucks for a product typically don't complain about it much, because in so many people's minds, you get more if you pay more. But what you pay for something often has no relevance to how it will perform or last!!! I believe in getting the most for the least possible, BUT won't accept crap. In this economy it is so important to get value for your hard earned money, waste needs to be a thing of the past. Spending thousands of dollars, multiple times, on beds that don't perform and actually cause chronic back pain is just unacceptable. I met a nice woman who lived across from my parent' s old house when we were moving my mom out. She had crippling, chronic back pain. Slept on a Tempurpedic mattress. I cringed. But, because those things cost so much money, and there is so much hype surrounding them, she didn't think that the mattress could POSSIBLY be part of her problem. I did try to tell her, but to no avail. Actually, my topper is not actually a Cuddlebed...it is a mattress topper that is a down-like poly-fill mat, several inches thick. No foam in it. It is washable and fluffs pretty nicely but it does tend to flatten out in my problem area. So I have to fluff it up every couple of weeks or so. I don't have a Costco membership...there isn't enough that I'd save money on to justify the purchase of the card(toldja I was cheap!). The offset coils are just a bit different than the Bonnell. The tops of the coils stick up a bit, and give a bit of a different feel. I think it depends on how the wires are attached. I have had long discussions with Bill about this, but still as clear as mud. Kait Kait, I agree about the springs. It's a better feel, to me. I actually had the same problem, re not wanting to admit it was my mattress: The year or so I spent on pure foam minus-springs, my back was always hurting and my wife kept saying "You need springs!" I kept saying, "No! There is nothing wrong with foam! Foam gives good support when it's good foam!" So I resisted because I was somehow mentally invested in the "idea" of pure foam. What kills me though is how people will complain to me about their mattress, and I tell them that they could easily cut it open and replace the foam like I have done, and I'm willing to help them ... but they won't do it! For some reason the idea of cutting open a mattress seems scary to them! Even an old one that is hurting their back and they want to buy a new one... I don't get it. I don't have a CostCo Membership either, for exactly the same reason. It's just the wife and I and we don't get much benefit from it. We bought the Sealy at CostCo years ago. So, when I went to their web site, because I had ordered from them once, they still allowed me to order the Cuddlebed even though my membership had expired years before. Back to the Springs thing: for me, now it's like "I've seen the light!" I am tempted to tell anyone who's having trouble getting their foam right, that maybe they need springs! But it seems to be true that many people do love their foam mattresses, especially when it's pure latex. So, I guess some of us need springs and some don't. Also I tried the Sealy springs for a long time with my own foam on top of them, and those springs just never felt right to me. They're the type that are all kind of connected together with wires, I forget what they're called... My wife is still sleeping on hers and is happy enough with them, but I never liked them. I'm liking my Englander a lot. I am SO hoping the feel of it doesn't change in a week or a month or 6 months.... This message was modified Sep 25, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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I'm all ears and eyes....where can I see this surgery? Have a beautiful Chattam & Well that lasted for 6 1/2 years and just developed body impression that sent my hubby's back into shooting nerve problem, so he's on floor for 5 weeks now, but no problem now that he's out of the bed. We are researching $3K latex beds but nothing around to try near us so have to order blind online BUT I told hubby that I wish I could cut our C&W open and get rid of the poly foam in there that has impressed & replace it with a foambymail latex layer....he said I was crazy... Then I read this thread and I'm lol..... I need to see a photo to be sure I cut properly as I'm doing this when he's not home...heh heh.....and he won't know until too late. We didn't get a pillowtop or eurotop, so maybe I won't have to deal with too much poly quilting onto the cover, but it does have something quilted on :( I need to know where to cut - I want to save the top if I can & then hide the damage with the mattress cover after I attempt to sew it back on. King will take forever to sew 3 sides back on but I'll end up saving about $3k if it works out. So, photos please when you can! Tks |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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catlover wrote: I'm all ears and eyes....where can I see this surgery? Hey catlover, if you go to the top post in this thread (and any thread here) and look underneath it you will see:Have a beautiful Chattam & Well that lasted for 6 1/2 years and just developed body impression that sent my hubby's back into shooting nerve problem, so he's on floor for 5 weeks now, but no problem now that he's out of the bed. We are researching $3K latex beds but nothing around to try near us so have to order blind online BUT I told hubby that I wish I could cut our C&W open and get rid of the poly foam in there that has impressed & replace it with a foambymail latex layer....he said I was crazy... Then I read this thread and I'm lol..... I need to see a photo to be sure I cut properly as I'm doing this when he's not home...heh heh.....and he won't know until too late. We didn't get a pillowtop or eurotop, so maybe I won't have to deal with too much poly quilting onto the cover, but it does have something quilted on :( I need to know where to cut - I want to save the top if I can & then hide the damage with the mattress cover after I attempt to sew it back on. King will take forever to sew 3 sides back on but I'll end up saving about $3k if it works out. So, photos please when you can! Tks
Choose All and that will show you every post in the thread. This forum has a somewhat archaic and unique "feature" which allows you to view just the some of the threads at one time, usually the first and the last few, but not the rest. To see all you have to choose All or View as Outline which will then show you a list of all the threads within a topic. If you choose All you will see all the photos of the mattress surgery. As to "if it works out", if your springs are not shot (and they probably are not) it WILL work out! As to where to cut, see the thread about that here in this forum and also see my photos above. Good luck. Please take photos and post them when you cut, show us the CR*P inside your S brand mattress! Show us the springs, show us the foam... One thing the S brands do right is that most of the springs do last quite a long time unless you buy individual coils. Let us know how it goes. If you need any specific advice post your question here and I'll see it, or start a new topic and I'll see that. My mail box isn't the best place, as I don't always check it. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Jim-- Great post! But for some reason I never saw the pictures... or most of the posts until I decided to answer Catlover's post. Then it all came up. Very mysterious! Loved the slide show. It's really interesting to see what's inside all these mattresses and the approach different manufacturers take. If only they would take a lesson from us they'd turn out a much better product. Catlover-- if you'd like to see more pictures of another mattress surgery here's a link to the one I did on mine: http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/mattress-surgery-101/4385-0-1.html I just checked it out to make sure the pictures were still active. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Hey, Catlover; Yep, you found this just in time! I've heard that the type of mattress you have has lots of polyfoam inside, which is likely the problem. IMO, nothing ventured, nothing gained....what do you have to lose when your hubby cannot even sleep in your bed??? There is NO resale for beds, so it is a worthless piece of crap unless you try to make it work better. I think you are on the right track. I would not worry too much about the foam in the top fabric unless nothing is changed by replacing the inside foam. Then maybe cut. Typically there isn't a lot of foam in the top piece. Speaking of cut apart beds, I helped my stepdaughter move yesterday...she is the owner of my last bed that I cut open. She's actually gone BACK to the original foam that was in the bed to start with, unbelievably(well, she does weigh more per square inch than I do, so maybe that is it), except there was a double layer of insulator added between the springs and the foam, and I replaced the center piece of bottom foam(across the hip area) with a hd polyfoam. I almost laid down on it, but I resisted. Like my new bed just fine. Kait |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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cloud9 wrote: Jim-- Great post! But for some reason I never saw the pictures... or most of the posts until I decided to answer Catlover's post. Then it all came up. Very mysterious! Loved the slide show. It's really interesting to see what's inside all these mattresses and the approach different manufacturers take. If only they would take a lesson from us they'd turn out a much better product. Catlover-- if you'd like to see more pictures of another mattress surgery here's a link to the one I did on mine: http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/mattress-surgery-101/4385-0-1.html I just checked it out to make sure the pictures were still active. Thanks, and I'm glad you posted your url of your mattress surgery here. It's good to have as many as possible all in one place, I think. Very nice job on your photos and post! I don't think the mattress manufacturers are interested in producing a better product! I think they're interested in producing cheap mattresses with pillowtops that will break down quickly and cause people to have to buy new ones very soon. Seems incredibly short-sighted and hard to believe any company would think that way, yet it seems to me that is how they think. My thinking would be, "Let's make a good quality mattress and then show people WHY it's a better quality mattresss by educating them in our advertising and promotions, and explain why it's best to spend a little more on a mattress that will last." Personally I think ALL manufacturers should offer at least one model that has a zippered cover, easy to open, and offer various latex and memory foam layers to put in there. Like flobeds, only with springs. If I had the money I'd start it up, myself! Whatever they do, DIY type or not, they should NOT be putting 3-6" of crappy foam on top of the springs! |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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cloud9 wrote: Catlover-- if you'd like to see more pictures of another mattress surgery here's a link to the one I did on mine: http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/mattress-surgery-101/4385-0-1.html I just checked it out to make sure the pictures were still active. Cloud9, thank you for posting that link. I thought I'd read all the "mattress surgery" threads on the forum, but I somehow missed yours. Very helpful. I don't think I'll have to do that for a good long while, because I bought a minimally padded, extra firm (3 layers of fiber mat), flippable mattress this summer, but I really like knowing that the surgery option is there, and seeing how people have done it. If the spirit moves you to take pictures of the velcro tabs you sewed on, and add those to the thread sometime, that would be even more extra-helpful. (Or tell me if they're already in there, and I'm just not seeing them.) But what you've got is fantastic and much appreciated. And I like the Monty Python references.  -Catherine |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
| Jimsocal, I have not had time to read through all of you postings but I find your surgery very interesting. I am curious why did you decide to start with a spring core, as opposed to foam or latex? Have you experimented with the other cores as a starting point? |