MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)... As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it. Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back. So I did surgery on it tonight.  I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. I did expect more from Englander... I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside!  What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands... On top of the 1 and 5/16 inches of soft junky pu foam, there was the whatchacallit, the top sewn into tufts, whatever they call that thing. (What kind of a mattress expert am I??! I can never remember the name of that top piece!  ) I removed that too because it's just the same cheap junky foam sewn together with a cloth and tufted...(By the way, if you buy the Malibu PLUSH instead of the Malibu FIRM, know what you get? Instead of 1 and 5/16" of junky pu foam, you get about 5" of junky pu foam! That must REALLY hurt people's backs!) This kind of mattress construction - which all the major companies are using, now, STINKS! PU foam = Peee Eww!  So, I took off ALL the foam, and then replaced it with this, from bottom up: 1" of zoned HR foam: top = medium, middle = firm, and bottom = very firm (feet area doesn't really matter, imho) 3/4" of medium-soft latex (Talalay - not certain of the ILD - maybe 24 or 28?) 1" of Venus foam So it's about the same amount of foam as it had - now 2 and 3/4 instead of just 2" - but the main difference is that now I have QUALITY foam on top of the springs, foam that gives SUPPORT as well as softness. Will post more as the experiment progresses... I'll be playing around with this combination, see how it feels. My wife has something very similar to this on top of her Sealy springs, and she likes it pretty well.- P.S. the springs seem to feel pretty good. I can't say for sure though until I've slept on them with good foam for a while This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress
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I'm going to pull back the curtains and show you the great and powerful "Oz", the Mattress Wizard, the behind-the-scenes look at what's inside your mattress. Most mattresses are the same, especially most S brand or major brand mattresses. What you are about to see here is not just an indictment of Englander but of the entire mattress industry. There is no great "Oz" at all, it's just a bunch of junk under a pretty looking exterior. Okay, here we go: We have not done this a bunch of times, so we're still getting the hang of it... It can be done more "neatly" and "nicely" but we're of the opinion that how it looks isn't all that important. No one sleeps on these mattresses but my wife and I. (Well, I HOPE that's the case, anyway...  ) So no one is seeing it but us... well, and now you folks...Here is how it looks using an exacto knife to start cutting in to the top of the mattress. We suggest cutting above the ribbing - that round part on the top edges - in order to make the "walls" of the mattress a little more sturdy and stable once you're done cutting. A tip here is that once you get it open, use the other hand to hold it apart and pull it behind the knife so as to keep tension on it. That makes it cut easier. Seems entirely obvious but we didn't catch on to that right away. I think next time we'll do much better. <img src="http://img137.yfrog.com/img137/62/cuttingitopenvga.jpg"> Another shot of the cutting. Here, we had to be careful not to cut the black cloth covering of the springs. If we had cut it, it wouldn't be a disaster but we did not want to cut the cover of the springs. <img src="http://img529.yfrog.com/img529/2847/cuttingitopen2vga.jpg"> Here's a shot of the mattress after 3 of the sides of the top were cut off, ready to cut the last side and remove the top piece: <img src="http://img143.yfrog.com/img143/8650/mattressaftercutting3si.jpg"> This shows the top of the mattress or what I call the quilting, made of low quality foam and material, and the 3 layers of the same low quality foam under that. This is ALL there is between your body and the Englander Malibu Firm springs. About an inch and a half of very low density, cheap, low quality white polyetheyline or pu foam. <img src="http://img529.yfrog.com/img529/2635/foamandquilttuftedcover.jpg"> Here is the side of the mattress showing the dacron or similar material that encases the springs, the black (fireproofing?) cover of the springs, and the 3 layers of foam on top of the springs. Does this look like quality manufacturing to you??? : <img src="http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6903/dacronencasingvga.jpg"> This isn't a great shot, but here's what it looks like after everything is taken off except for the material over the springs. Our Sealy which we gave a foam-ectomy to a year or so ago, had a 1/4" layer of memory foam over the springs instead of this material. I guess the main idea of this covering is to keep the springs from eating into the foam above it, it seems to be just a protection layer: <img src="http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/6963/materialoverspringsvgaf.jpg"> Okay, so now comes the new foam, some foam with integrity, some foam worthy of sleeping on! This is me holding my 3 pieces of 1" HR foam. I have it cut into Thirds, so that one piece is for my shoulders (about 28 ILD), one piece for my hips (maybe 34 ILD) and the bottom piece here, where my legs and feet go, is a Very Firm, maybe 40 ILD - the zone for the legs and feet doesn't really matter imho: <img src="http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4442/3densitiesofmyhrfoamvga.jpg"> Here, I've set the 1" HR foam on top of the mattress. Friction holds it in place. This happens to be the top 2 sections for my shoulders and hips: Medium and Firm: <img src="http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4966/justpushedtogethervga.jpg"> Now, on top of the 1" layer of zoned HR foam, I add a layer of 3/4" latex. Not sure of the ILD. We got it from a warehouse very cheap and they had no clue. I'm guessing 24-28 ILD .You may decide to put the latex on the bottom instead of HR foam, or perhaps LUX or M-Grade or whatever... just put something firm enough to be supportive. So here's my latex layer: <img src="http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/189/latexontopvga.jpg"> Here, you can see that I've "tucked" the latex layer into the corners. It could be cut to fit the corners perfectly but since we have been experimenting we haven't gotten around to doing that, so it's extra long and we just tuck it in. Also instead of cutting the HR foam, we just tuck the corners in. Good quality foam does not tear easily - except Venus and maybe some other memory foams, which are more fragile than Talalay latex and HR foam. Additionally, you see in this photo, the 1" layer of Venus foam setting on top, ready to be placed: <img src="http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7157/venusfoamontopvga.jpg"> Now, here's everything in place. The Venus memory foam was set on top (we didn't tuck it in because it tears easily) and then we just put the CuddleBed topper or mattress cover over it, which is nice because it has long elastic sides which cover the side of the mattress and no one would know the mattress has unsightly "surgical scars" around its edges! : <img src="http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/2195/finishedmattressvga.jpg"> The first night was very good. For some reason, often when I change my mattress the 1st night or two feel better, so I can't say for sure. But it HAS to be better now, with good quality foam instead of the low quality cheap foam that was in there. If it's not good I'll keep playing with it. I can add a firmer layer of HR in the zone of my hips, I can put Sensus instead of Venus on top, I can remove the cuddle bed topper, I can buy some Dunlop latex to replace or supplement the Talalay, etc. etc... For those of you who have never performed a "foam-ectomy" and are thinking of taking the plunge, just do it. Believe me, your mattress has junky foam inside which needs to be replaced. It will very likely save you from buying a new one AND give you a better sleep than anything you wuld probably buy. In my opinion, if you have good springs to start with - as long as they're not just used up and shot to heck - then you can make a great mattress by replacing the foam inside with higher quality foam. And it gives you the ability to ADJUST it, as well. Hope this helps someone get a better night's sleep. This message was modified Sep 4, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress
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cloud9 wrote: By the by, do you know what kind of spring unit the mattress has? If they nailed the support level for you at least they're doing something right! From what I was told, (and I am taking this with a grain of salt) they are Bonnell springs. I am pretty sure, though, that whatever they are, they are 12.5 gauge, which is why I bought them, based on having liked an Englander with 12.5 gauge springs, years ago. Everyone told me they were 12.5 gauge, without my specifically mentioning that number or anything, so I tend to believe it. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Great post. I intend to do this to my old mattress. The question is how to keep the springs from punching through the foam. My mattress is eight years old now, so I cannot bank on its equivalent of your black layer still being good. I noticed that Foam Factory / foamdistributing.com sells a few things. They sell PU foam "skins" or "crusts" which I guess are the top inch of foam from a PU pour. The hard, stiff surface crust is, and I quote: "Crust or skin is commonly used over springs because of its tough and durable surface." They come in the same size as PU foam, 82x76x1" thick, $15 for HD36 and $17 for Lux. They don't specify a Lux-HQ which is a minor bummer, since it's denser and supposedly more durable. The HD36 has an ILD of 35, the Lux is ILD 50. I'll be deciding on an order this weekend; my back has just started objecting to our memory foam mattress after 3 weeks so I need to do something to my side of it. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Nice post Jim. So your sleep was ok? Better than before? I may have missed it, but how tall are your springs and how many inches does your cuddlebed support? I.e. What is the max amount of inches of foam/latex you could add to the springs? You're using a boxspring in addition, right? I may go this route if my DIY doesn't pan out. :) This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by Vaphils
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Dr_Mike wrote: Great post. I intend to do this to my old mattress. The question is how to keep the springs from punching through the foam. My mattress is eight years old now, so I cannot bank on its equivalent of your black layer still being good. I noticed that Foam Factory / foamdistributing.com sells a few things. They sell PU foam "skins" or "crusts" which I guess are the top inch of foam from a PU pour. The hard, stiff surface crust is, and I quote: "Crust or skin is commonly used over springs because of its tough and durable surface." They come in the same size as PU foam, 82x76x1" thick, $15 for HD36 and $17 for Lux. They don't specify a Lux-HQ which is a minor bummer, since it's denser and supposedly more durable. The HD36 has an ILD of 35, the Lux is ILD 50. I'll be deciding on an order this weekend; my back has just started objecting to our memory foam mattress after 3 weeks so I need to do something to my side of it. You can use about anything to cover the springs, in my opinion. The cloth used above is a very thin plastic-like (synthetic) type material. One time I used cardboard over the springs and that worked okay. It might cut back on the springiness, not entirely sure it's a good idea, but I did use it and it did seem okay at the time. You can buy 1/4" memory foam or 1/4" any kind of foam to put over the springs. All you are really doing is protecting the foam above so about anything will work. Think of a thick cloth like tarpaulin or ?? Both mattresses I have performed surgery on had very thin layers over the springs so I would stick to that concept. I think 1" is too much. Go with cloth as above, or 1/4" foam. When you dissect your mattress you may well find a thin layer of foam over the springs that is still good. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Vaphils wrote: Nice post Jim. So your sleep was ok? Better than before? I may have missed it, but how tall are your springs and how many inches does your cuddlebed support? I.e. What is the max amount of inches of foam/latex you could add to the springs? You're using a boxspring in addition, right? I may go this route if my DIY doesn't pan out. :) Not sure how tall the springs are... I am quite sure they are "standard" - all I have seen are about the same. I am using a box, not really a box SPRING. I think it has a little spring action but is mostly just slats of wood - it's the old Sealy Fenway box spring from CostCo. Yes, my sleep has been excellent 2 nights now, after the mattress surgery. Understand that I have had major arm, shoulder and back and neck problems for the past 5 years due to 3 car accidents involving those areas of my body. So NO mattress is going to have me sleeping and waking up perfectly. But I can say for sure that when I was sleeping on my HR foam+ memory foam+ latex combinations with no springs, I was waking up every day after only 5-6 hours of sleep with my back hurting so bad I could not fall back to sleep. Now, last night, I was in bed TEN hours and woke up with my shoulders only hurting a little - no back pain at all. That's close to what I would call "miraculous"! I always caution that I've found that often with a new mattress combination it begins to hurt me after a week or several weeks, so I'm not "out of the woods" yet but this is certainly encouraging, and I will say that I feel better on this mattress - as of now - than I have felt on any mattress or diy combo, in many years. I'm not sure what you mean or how to answer your question: "how many inches does your cuddlebed support? I.e. What is the max amount of inches of foam/latex you could add to the springs? " Can you elaborate on what you mean? I assume you are calling my altered mattress a "cuddlebed"? If I understand you correctly, I dont' think there is a maximum on how much foam you can put on top of springs. The thing is, normally there is a comfort equation of some sort, where if you put too much foam on top of springs you may as well just use the foam, only, I think. I think most here have indicated that using 2-3" of foam on top of springs is about the right amount. I am currently using 2 and 3/4" plus the "cuddlebed" topper but it really does not add much, maybe 1/2" of foam or less after it's broken in. This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Excellent stuff Jim. I believe you're really doing a service for the forum community by giving us these details and posting your pictures. You know the old saying of course, "A picture is worth a 1000 words." As has been discussed by you, and others, but principally as far as I'm concerned, by you, the mattress manufacturers have been ripping us off for years. Their idea of a great mattress is to put anything cheap inside of it that will be acceptable to the customer for a year or two, put a fancy cover on it, give it a fancy name, and charge a fancy price. And make darn sure that the other dealers who sell your product have a different name on the same mattress, so that no one can price shop them. Again, thanks Jim for your enlightened post. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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jimsocal wrote: Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)... As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it. Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back. So I did surgery on it tonight. I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. I did expect more from Englander... I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside! What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands... I don't think your assessment is fair to Englander. While I'm unfamiliar with Englander specifically I am familiar with the major "S" brands. You spent how much on this mattress? $250 if I recall correctly? Sir, you purchased the dirt cheap bottom-end line of beds. Why are you surprised that a cheap bed is made of cheap components? Did you expect Talalay in a $250 mattress? Consistent Density memory foam? You can spend more than $250 on a decent Topper, much less the whole mattress. Let's not be misleading. It doesn't make sense to go out and buy a $5000 Kia and then complain when it doesn't have a Hemi engine, 4 wheel drive, or heated leather interior. -Alex |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Hi Alex, For me, no doubt you have insite of mattresses made by the big mattress companies. Do you have a take on why they keep making mattresses with short order failing pillow tops? Are there different quaility and lasting pillow tops on expensive mattresses? Can you defend them for making and getting these failing mattresses out to gullible customers? Shouldn't they be more up front about how long these will last? What price does it start at where you can purchase a mattress that will hold up to for serveral years of good service? For me their practices and concerns for the public seems to have a good comparasion with the US Auto Industry of yesteryear. Maybe they get some bad and unfair raps but their deceitful campaigns of supplying the US market is a disgrace and in my opionion they are getting what thet deserve in this forum. Thanks for your recent posts they seem to be quite informative and interesting. Your comment please. Bear |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Alexander wrote: I don't think your assessment is fair to Englander. While I'm unfamiliar with Englander specifically I am familiar with the major "S" brands. You spent how much on this mattress? $250 if I recall correctly? Sir, you purchased the dirt cheap bottom-end line of beds. Why are you surprised that a cheap bed is made of cheap components? Did you expect Talalay in a $250 mattress? Consistent Density memory foam? You can spend more than $250 on a decent Topper, much less the whole mattress. Let's not be misleading. It doesn't make sense to go out and buy a $5000 Kia and then complain when it doesn't have a Hemi engine, 4 wheel drive, or heated leather interior. -Alex Alex, my indictment is of all the S brands (and other mass marketed) lower and medium end mattresses. I'm not yet sure about the higher end S brands. Please provide stats on higher end S brand mattresses that are worth buying. This forum is for "What's the best mattress?" So your input is welcome if you dare to challenge us to examine your stats on what you consider to be a "worthy" S brand or mass market - under $2000 - mattress. If Sealy or whoever makes a great $1500 mattress, I'd like to know what's in it! I do not say this facetiously. I really would be pleased to know that there are some S brands making good mattresses - mattresses that do NOT have too much cheap PU foam, mattresses that do not have pillow tops that will break down within 1 week, 3 months or a year and cause people's backs to hurt. I would love to answer the questions people often pose here, "So which mattress should I buy? I want a SPRING mattress that is good!" with a recommendation for something other than a specialty bed that is over $2000. And even some of those I am skeptical about... One thing the S brands need to do is stop making pillow tops that break down quickly and hurt people's backs because they have 5" of cheap PU foam on top of the springs! That is just unacceptable, and in my opinion as long as they do this injustice to people, they deserve my condemnation. I have a family member who just bought a pillow-top mattress and it is killing their backs after 1 week but the store won't take it back. Added: Your mentioning of Stearns and Foster in another thread made me wonder if they make some good mattresses. I went to their web page here: http://www.stearnsandfoster.com/ComparisonChart.aspx Curiously, they do not tell me what ILD's or thicknesses or types of foam are inside. Do you have that information? They mention "memory foam" and "latex" as being inside some of them, but don't say how much or what ILD's or which process the latex is made from, nor how much PU foam and of what type and density it is. I can understand that maybe the average buyer would not know the difference, anyway. But it seems they are relying on the average buyer to know that "latex" means quality. Yet, they are probably (?) just putting enough latex in there to entice them with that word, but then surrounding it with cheap PU foam. Or am I wrong on that? Please provide specs that prove me wrong and I'll gladly admit it! This message was modified Sep 6, 2009 by jimsocal
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