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My current mattress is about 10 years old and is probably due for repalcedment. I have a hard time sleeping sometimes, and don't always wake up refreshed. So I visited a mattress store yesterday and spent about an hour trying just about every bed in the joint. The one I liked the best was the low end Stearns & Foster in a plush. Unfortunately, it was out of my price range. The salesman brought down the price about 25% by using a "clearance" box spring, but I didn't give in. I probably would have had he thrown in free delivery. Decided to "sleep on it." I had read a little bit before going to the store, and was trying to look for stuff like the number of coils and gauge of steel. They didn't have much of that info. I tried the Tempurpedic bed and thought it was nice, but out of my price range. They had a few latex floor models for 50% off. There was one that I liked that seemed a little firmer than the rest, and I think I could have been happy with it. I liked the individual coils the best, but maybe I'm not used to latex or foam? Anyways, I got home and started researching and found that the three-S's are frowned upon and basically scratched them off! I've read through here and found recommendations to search for local mattress companies. I found a few: http://www.bowlesmattress.com/html/crown.htm http://indianamattresscompany.com/default.aspx http://www.holdermattress.com/ http://www.holderbedding.net/index.html I can get to the places that carry those beds.. Should I try to find the firmest matress I can and buy toppers? My initial thinking is a firm mattress from a local shop and getting the 2.5" memory foam topper from Sam's club - staying local in case I'm unhappy. Find the lowest gauge steel? Bonnell springs, or open? I've read about the DIY mattress.. like FBM stuff. That's not entirely unappealing. Doing surgery is unappealing though, because I'm a litle clumsy ;) I'd run in to the problem of a foundation (I have a headboard, footboard, and side rails I'd like to keep) with the DIY stuff. It's kinda scary for me to go this route since I can't try the foam or latex before I buy. I don't want to be completely stuck. I'm 6'4" and about 240.. so a big guy. I sleep on my back and side. Anyone care to poke me in a certain direction for further researching? I'm (more than) a little confused right now. |
| @ 6'4" 240 is relatively spread out. I wouldn't worry too much about the gauge of wire you get so long as it is not really high. Personally I think that since you do wish to keep your cost's down, that buying a firmer mattress to start with, and minimal amount of upholstery is a good idea, and then try doing a latex or memory foam topper, maybe with a washable wool filled pad. That would get you a pretty good set up on a reasonable budget. |
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What is the approximate midrange of your budget (the amount you really hope to go lower than but would also go a little higher than if you found an absolutely amazing bed). That might help in making a few suggestions. Phoenix |
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Of the ones you posted here is what I know: Bowles Mattress: Probably overpriced for a "local" manufacturer. I got a quote from them on a spa series 9" embrace latex and it was 2199 plus shipping. Their lineup also looks familiar as if they are manufacturing another line (such as stress-o-pedic or symbol) but I'd have to do some digging and "matching up" to see if that was the case. Indiana mattress company: Don't have them in my database but my initial impression of them is very favorable. Adding them to my DB. Worth pursuing Holder mattress: Have them in my database but thought they were overpriced. Didn't research them any further Holder bedding: Talked to a delightful old guy there. He is mailing me information on his mattresses because he wasn't hi-tech enough to email it to me. Seemed like a company I would do business with but haven't received his mail yet. He was sending me information on a 2 sided mattress with a 6": latex core with 1.5-2" latex on either side quilted. Phoenix This message was modified Oct 12, 2010 by Phoenix
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perryw,
Just so you know I have 38 years of mattress manufacturing experience - and I worked for two of the big S's in So. Calif. That said, here is what some pretty savy mattress makers have taught me over the years... Support - for the most part, come from the spring steel inside an innerspring mattress. Of course in a latex mattress the latex does the supporting. Most of the industry defines support as pushing back against the weight of your body and it's heavyest parts and the natural movements of your body. That is where the memory foam people's feelings get hurt. There isn't much pushing back getting done iwth memory foam - but they say you pick up resistance as you compress (sink in) the foam; and there may be something to this! Generaly, I try ot keep support needs with Innerspring or Latex, and hight comfort needs will bring in memory foam. That said, if you have two mattresses (innerspring) side by side with the same innerspring inside but different types of upholsrty (with out latex of course), then while you may have different amounts or types of comfort, you will have the same support.
Comfort - comes from the type and amount of upholstry on top of the innerspring. Latex is a little more complicated but this will hold pretty much true for this, also. Whether you are looking at a Pillow Top or a Euro Top can be more or less comfortable, might even might be more difficult to turn over or move on, but generaly it won't drastically change the support. So I don't see a great deal of value in buying a firm mattress and then trying to make it more comfortable buy adding padding at extra cost, when you could have bought a plusher mattress set to start with at the same price.
Sounds like you have got most of the hard part of looking for a new set over with - you seem to have an idea of the comfort that will make you happy. I would suggest you buy the the best level set you can afford with the comfort you want and give it six weeks to break in and let you get use to it, and you will be happy.
By the way 8 - 10 years for a mattress is just about right because in ten years you will not be the same person you are now! Your comfort needs will change and you support needs will most certainly change!
I'm sure I have pretty much irritated all the other contributors to this forum - read their responses and take it all in. They will all have valid poins of view based on their levels of experience. I have learned a few things on this forum - so they are good! I'm just saying I have built thousands of mattresses, designed hundreds, purchased for two different mattress compinies, and sold a few mattresses in my day - just and old mattress guy trying to share my knowledge!
Gunman This message was modified Oct 13, 2010 by gunman4440
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"That is where the memory foam people's feelings get hurt. There isn't much pushing back getting done iwth memory foam - but they say you pick up resistance as you compress (sink in) the foam; and there may be something to this!" I absolutely agree with you here fwiw. The support factor of memory foam is very low (even though it does vary by brand, none of them really support). The further you sink into memory foam, the more it "melts away" so even with the better and thicker layers of memory foam you don't get the same support levels as you do with better support layers. Even if you do pick up "resistance" deeper into the layer, it's still not support in the true sense of the word but more compression resistance. To my knowledge, none of them have a support factor above 2 and even this would be unusual. Having said all that ... this all came from talking to a lot of people whose opinion I came to trust and there was quite some degree of consensus on this. Like you they had been around for a long time and had a lot of "real world" experience. All I did was listen closely, figure out the "why" of what they were telling me, and learned to trust it when many people who knew more than I did shared the same general ideas. Real experience like yours ... combined with a willingness to share that experience ... is really rare and truly welcome. Phoenix Added soon after: Well wouldn't you know it. I was just reading a chart about Aerus and they claim a support factor of 2.6 and even give traditional visco 2.4 and competitive open cell visco 2.2. I just don't believe this unless the testing was done without any heating (probably was). This would also be coming from a very low ILD starting point (meaning it also wouldn't take much to compress it to 65%) but even so, I have a hard time believing that this would be the way it would perform in the real world. I think too that in the case of memory foam that talking about support factor is misleading in the first place and that temperature range and sensitivity and the length of time an impression is held would be more meaningful. Buckling column gel would also have pretty much meaningless support factor numbers as well and if the column buckled with a 25% depression then the support factor would be close to 1 (same pressure to get it to 65% compression as it took to get it to 25%). I still think that talking about memory foam as "supportive" is misleading. This message was modified Oct 13, 2010 by Phoenix
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| For the record I am not saying buying toppers is ideal, but on a limited budget it could be. Someone show me even one pillowtop mattress that is made with nothing but high quality materials for less than say even $1500 for a queen set and I will be a little shocked. Gardner seemed to be the closest but with some very basic innersprings being used. The problem with most pillowtops is that they really don't last very long at all...the whole point of buying a firm bed and adding your own upholstery is so you can replace that upholstery if/when it fails. If your upholstery is built right into the mattress in the form of a pillowtop you are hooped. Even the latest Stearns and Foster models we got up in Canada last year that were supposed to be much more durable due to HD foam I have had atleast 2 or 3 people complain about excessive body indentations on beds less than a year old. |
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Wow, lots of great info - thanks! The midrange of my budget is $1000. Indiana Mattress Company is real close to where I work, and a coworker actually recommended them to me. He's had one from them for six months and is happy. Another coworker has one of three S's, I forget which, that is six months old and he says it is already collapsing in the middle. I'll probably try to visit them this week. Holder Bedding is a little further away and I found them via Google. Is it just me, or are most of the sites pretty short on technical information about the beds? I guess that's part of what makes the decision so hard for me - I feel like companys are trying to deceive me. Heh, and they probably are ;) For the steel gauge, is under 14 generally acceptable? |
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In my research it seemed that there are several "parts" to what makes a good innerspring.
Guage of the wire: (the smaller the guage thicker the wire). 12-17 seems to be the typical range. Whether it is tempered or not also plays a role in it's strength and "wearability". Number of working turns: 5 seems to be recognized as good with 6 being better Type of spring: (a lot of misleading information and "branding" here) but in general bonnell and it's variations (including the hinged or offset versions), continuous coil and it's variations, and pocket coil (marshall coil) and it's variations. Coil count: In the case of continuous coil it is usually given as an equivalent as they are really not individual coils. How the coils are joined together: This doesn't apply to pocket coils but bonnell and continuous coils have different methods of being attached to each other or different directions of attachment. The different methods lead to either "indivuality" (each coil bears a greater proportion of a load) or "group support" (more coils are load bearing at any point of the mattress). The continuous coils in general are the most "group effort" type of coil which is why they are often considered the strongest. The different directions of attachment can lead to more or less motion separation between partners. End to end means more motion separation and side to side means less motion separation. Posturizing: This means that coils either have different guages (stronger) where more support is needed or that more coils are used where more support is needed. Similar to "zoning" in a foam mattress Edge support: This means that the edge of the mattress is supported in one way or another (there are different methods) so it is more comfortable to sit on and so the edges don't wear out sooner.
In their ability to conform it seems that the order (best to worst) is pocket or marshall coils - bonnell coils - continuous coils In their overall basic "strength" (what some people call support) it seems that the order is reversed
My personal opinion is that true support comes from a combination of strength and ability to conform to the body and it's position as you sleep which means that there is no one design that is best for everyone.
Side sleepers in general need more conformability (they have more parts sticking out) which can either come from the upper parts of the mattress or a pocket coil type of construction. It also seems that more things can go wrong with pocket coils in terms of both the coils getting pushed away from vertical in their "nest" and in terms of durability. There are different ways to construct them. Some people will prefer offset (hinged bonnell) coils for this reason and some of the higher end mattresses use them. This means that bonnell coils can be found in the lower ends (they are the cheapest to make and have been around the longest) while their variants can be found in some of the higher end mattresses. There is a lot of hype around coils.
With more modern mattress construction where the middle and upper layers of a mattress are thicker and more "active", there is often less importance placed on the qualities of the coils and more importance placed on it's overall strength and how long it will last. This depends on how thick and "active" the upper layers are and how much a person will "go through" the upper layers. The thinner the upper layers and the less "active" they are in their materials, the more important the innerspring becomes. Innerspring mattresses are usually designed to work with a boxspring as part of their optimal design. Foam core mattresses need a solid or slatted foundation ... not a boxspring. Having said that, some places charge obscene amounts for their boxsprings which is a major profit center for them. Nothing replaces your own personal experience in terms of what will be comfortable and supportive. There seems to be a lot of evidence and there was even a study of sorts done that indicated that what people felt about a mattress after laying on it for 15 minutes was pretty indicative of how they would feel in the long term. This just goes to show that most people don't actually spend even 15 minutes laying on a mattress in the store (usually much less). 15 minutes in a store can seem like a long time. Research on materials and construction and the experience of other people will help you determine how long a mattress will stay supportive and comfortable or even in some cases how long it will take to become comfortable (break in). Some mattresses need breaking in and some need little to none. $1000 should get you a really nice mattress probably equivalent to at least $2000 in most stores. Phoenix This message was modified Oct 13, 2010 by Phoenix
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If I was in your shoes, I would be looking at An innerspring mattress ... 2 sided ... with latex on both sides and good quilting material or An all latex mattress (this may take you over your 1000 a bit but not by too much and probably in the upper end of your budget). You may have to give up quiltable latex or pay attention to the thickness of layers and the quilting materials (wool, cotton, fabrics etc) to stay in your budget. 2 sided here would still be desireable but not as important or If you are so inclined ... a good quality memory foam or latex memory foam combination. This would be a little harder to "get right" but should be well within your budget. I personally wouldn't go in this direction but that is only because of my own preferences. They can certainly be very comfortable for some people. If you go in this direction, then you would have a choice as to what you use for support. Either latex (most expensive), springs, or HR polyfoam (which in this case should last at least as long as the memory foam). If you incorporate memory foam then you would be looking at 1 sided.
Out of these ... (latex, springs, memory foam) memory foam would tend to be the least durable, especially in densities less than 5 lbs. My personal guideline was no more than 1" of polyfoam in a mattress and even this should be avoided if possible. Polyfoam in the top layers is worse than polyfoam in the bottom (support) layers and more than 1" of HR polyfoam in the bottom layers would have been fine if I'd gone in the memory foam direction since it will last longer than the memory foam anyway. Phoenix |
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Thanks again. Can't help but laugh though. I should either get an innerspring mattress, a latex mattress, or a memory foam mattress. That narrows it down, doesn't it? ;) For the third option, would something like this one be in the neighborhood: http://www.rockymountainmattress.com/cottonwood-9-p-33.html How can I tell how firm or plush feeling something like that is? I did like the feel of the tempurpedics, but didn't spend as much time due to the price. Holder Bedding lists their all latex mattresses at around $1400 and I really haven't seen anything below that price, at least not premade beds. I did like the feel of the firmer latex mattress at the store. It was a "good different' compared to the individual coils that liked. Would telling one of these small shops that I want "An innerspring mattress ... 2 sided ... with latex on both sides and good quilting material," yeild an unreasonable price? Would that be something I want to do, or should I choose from what's offered? My current mattress is probably past being worn out, but I haven't replaced it mainly due to the confusion of it all. |