Mattress Forum

You only need a 3" layer of X firm under you (unless by two you meant your half and your wifes half). If a medium Dunlop you have is split then you could get away with switching your half of it if your wife is OK with what she has.

Not surprised at the FBM ... have been suspecting medium but it may even be more. It's tough to work with "unknown layers" when there are enough unknowns already :). Makes it tough to really know for sure what is causing the effect of a change.

With the medium Talalay under, it may compress before the medium Dunlop depending on the relative ILD @25% and what compresses when after that depends on the relative sag factors. This is what I called "order of compression" before. When softer is under firmer, the softer compresses first. This helps parts to sink down but not "sink in". so it could help with alignment but not so much pressure relief. It may even reduce pressure relief slightly as it may change the order of compression so that the talalay compresses before the soft upper part of the medium Dunlop. The Dunlop would start to compress when the compressed Talalay under it became firmer than the top part of the Dunlop.

I think a thin firm layer like the mattress pad in the layering can work really well (or even cardboard and other thinner stiffer materials). I am tracking down a place to buy stuff like this but they haven't answered their phone either. I've been hoping someone would try this when I suggested it before as I think it could make a big difference in some cases (depending on what was used) but so far nobody has. If you go this route I'd just put it under the hip area to stop the Talalay from compressing and make the top part of the Dunlop compress. Cardboard or similar may work as well at least for a short while till it crinkled too much to stay firm. I'd sure be interested in how it changed things for you. It could even work better in between the medium/medium Dunlop if it stopped the lower layer from compressing too much and "forced" the upper layer to do the compressing.

Phoenix

2) I did experiment with putting some poster board under the dunlop piece. Started with like 10 pieces which made things super hard. Was surprised to find that even 1 piece made a noticeable difference. I didn't sleep with it though.

3) What I did sleep with was the soft over dunlop-med over tal-med. And, I think I finally get it!  Because for a long time I would have told you that this was both too soft and not soft enough. But thinking that didn't make sense. Now I think it does make sense; its not quite enough soft foam in the comfort layer, and too much soft foam in the support layer. What you've been saying all along. So I think I'll cakk Sleepez and "tell my story" and see what they will do. 2 pieces of firm dunlop should be good for support. 

But I clearly need more comfort layers as well. I do notice that when I add the allergy cover and the mattress pad things feel a bit firmer. Do you have suggestions for what I should do? Remove the mattress pad maybe? Add more foam? Wool? Do you think blended vs natural matters for topper?

I think I'd probably want something thats like 1.5" latex + wool. You mentioned the Rejuvenite and the Pure Latex Bliss toppers, are those the ones you would add? (I can only find rejuvenite in 3" layers.) Any sites you recommend for ordering?

Steve (feeling encouraged!)

I am guessing that the "bad latex" came from FBM and not foamorder which is a much more reliable supplier. They are very open about what they sell and while their prices may not be the best, I would certainly have confidence that what I ordered from them was what they sent me ... unlike FBM.

I am assuming that when you are talking about ordering 2 pieces of firm you mean 2 half pieces ie. one complete layer? I'm hoping that's the case since I don't think you will need 2 firm layers.

If you have say 40+ ILD Dunlop under the medium Dunlop, then the medium dunlop would compress first and the top part would feel soft and so "add to" the 3" of comfort you have with the soft Talalay. It would then start to compress and get firmer faster and with this "deeper firmness" in combination with the firm Dunlop under could also give you the support you need. Once you have tried this ... any minor adjustments you may need will be much more clear.

I doubt that most people would feel the difference between blended and natural Talalay in a comfort layer but the natural in theory would be a little springier and resilient and perhaps a little bit more "point elastic". I really do doubt though that the difference is enough to make an issue of it.

I was mentioning the PLB and Rejuvenite as examples of what I might put over a thicker layer of Dunlop to "duplicate" the OMI. They wouldn't work for you because you already have 3" soft Talalay which should work fine. You may need a thin layer with this but the medium Dunlop could give you what you need if what is under it is firm enough to "make it compress" first.

Phoenix

Anyway, I just got off the phone with Shaun at SleepEz. Told him what was going on and he recommended 1 piece of FIRM BLENDED TALALAY. He suggested I could put the firm over the medium dunlop. His reasoning was that either talalay or dunlop should be firm enough (in terms of support), but that the talalay would have a little more give / comfort and so it should help more with the pressure points. Your thoughts?

By the way, I think I am going to order a new terry cover because I can feel my sleepez cover is compressing (apparently I am a princess).   So that means I really will just have 8.x" of foam and no other materials. So I really wonder if I should also but some sort of topper, either wool or wool/latex blend? Or do you think its better to try the new config and see?

Thanks (for the millionth time )

With a firm thin layer over a softer layer (the medium Dunlop), you will not sink in as far into the softer layer below and this would help with alignment. It would help diminish the "sinking down". This is a good thing. I would probably be tempted to use a thin layer of the firmest Dunlop I could find to do this though rather than Talalay although the layer would be so thin it may not matter much. Dunlop is denser and would be "more like" a thin stiffer layer like we were talking about before than Talalay (and that you could feel made a difference). This is the part I agree with except I would use Dunlop to do it with if it had the same ILD (minor issue with a 1" layer)

In terms of pressure relief though it would be a different story. If the 1" layer was firm enough to stop the sinking down ... it's unlikely that it would make a big enough difference as a comfort layer. you would not sink "into" it enough to give you the extra "cradling" you may need. Yes, being thin it would "give" and may initially feel like you were "sinking in" but it would give more "as a whole" since the layers above and below are softer and would compress before it did. Even though it may "feel like" it was helping create a deeper cradle, it's unlikely it would really be doing this as well as the top part of your medium Dunlop (which it would dominate). This is the part of his advice I would consider to be "risky"

In other words ... if the 1" layer was firm enough to help with "sinking down" ... it may be too firm to help with "sinking in". If it was soft enough to help with "sinking in" then it wouldn't be firm enough to help with "sinking down". To do both you would need a thick enough middle layer where the combination of ILD (softness) and Sag factor (support) was meaningful in practice.

If I was going to use a "thin layer" approach, I would put the thin layer in between the two medium Dunlops and would probably use a thinner firmer layer rather than an inch of latex. If I was to use latex in this way (rather than an "insulator pad" type of layer), I would make it the absolute firmest I could find. I would think that even an inch of really stiff poly may also work with this approach. The goal of this thin layer approach would be to make the bottom medium Dunlop act "more like" firm Dunlop and "force" the middle dunlop to compress enough to add to pressure relief and cradling.

So bottom line ... If I was to use the "thin layer" approach ... It would probably be in between layers not "in exchange" for one of the mediums ... I would tend towards a non foam layer ... and If I used foam to do this (or at least test it) I would probably be with really firm poly with really firm Dunlop as the second choice.

Overall ... because the mattress would be thinner and because it would have a "dominating layer" in the middle, it would also reduce the "range" of the mattress which is it's ability to give both support and pressure relief in different sleeping positions with different needs.

Phoenix

As I said he just suggested that a firm talalay piece would help both give more support and ease pressure points. I have to say I just rejiggered my mattress to put the 2 medium dunlops on my side and the 2 medium talalays on the other side and I definitely prefer the all talalay side. It feels nicer on my shoulder and also on my back (the dunlop seems to press up into the small of my back more or something that feels slightly uncomfortable).

The problem with this approach is that the firm talalay may not be firm enough, even when in the middle of the stack. Also, I could end up with a slightly uneven bed (if I decide to use all talalay on my side that means I need to use at least 1 dunlop on my wife's side, theoretically that means different heights although I am not sure its noticeable)...

So now we need to talk about thick dominating layers (firmer over softer). Just to make sure I am clear ... he was suggesting from bottom up Medium Dunlop, Firm Talalay, Soft Talalay? I hope I have it right this time and this layering is the basis of my comments

The firm Talalay would "dominate" the medium Dunlop underneath it ... to a point ... until it compressed enough that it became firmer. This means that it would force the lower dunlop to compress without having the benefit of a middle layer compressing which would deepen your cradle and add to pressure relief. In other words it too would benefit you in terms of support but it would be much more like the Dunlop/soft Talalay on the floor except the lower Dunlop would compress before you "bottomed out" and i would not feel as "hard". I don't believe it would "deepen your cradle" enough though nearly as well as medium Dunlop. The first 25% of the medium Dunlop would be much softer than firm Talalay and I believe you need an inch or so of "softness" in the middle layer that can be part of your comfort layer.

The advantage of medium Dunlop in the middle layer over firm Talalay is that it "starts off softer" which you need and it "ends up firmer" (or at least the same) with more compression than the firm Talalay which you also need. If there was a really firm layer underneath this, then it would be the last to compress and would let the top two layers do what they do best.

Bottom line ... I disagree with Shawn as far as the likelihood of this layering to do both of the things you need compared to the Dunlop. I agree with him as far as it's likelihood to do one (alignment/support).

Phoenix

Yes, you got it now. Shaun essentially said even at my weight the top 2 layers would bear 90% or more of the support, and that it hardly matters what the bottom layer is. Thats why 2 sided mattresses (say a 6" core with 2" soft on each side) work. 

So it sounds like you disagree with putting the firm talalay on top of the medium dunlop. On the other hand it sort of sounds like you like the idea of the medium dunlop on top of the firm talalay? Or are you saying just get the firm dunlop? (And I assume layer soft over med-dunlop over firm-dunlop?)

As I said I just tested the "dunlop" vs "talalay" and think I prefer the feel of talalay. I've tried soft over medium over firm all dunlop and that didn't work. I'm sort of curious to try soft over med over firm all talalay (which I could do if I get the firm talalay layer). And I could always swap a medium dunlop back in if its not firm enough...

While I agree that the top 2 layers create most of the effect ... I couldn't disagree with him more about the bottom layer having little effect. The laws of physics and "order of compression" completely contradict this as well as your own testing with 6" on the floor. The reason 2 sided mattresses like this work (including my own) is because it uses the laws of physics to advantage rather than disadvantage. A thin soft layer will rapidly compress and only allow a little "sinking down" (because it is softer and thinner) before the thicker middle layer of a 2 sided mattress "takes over". I don't like to disagree with anyone so strongly but in this case ... and with your one sided construction ... I'm sorry to say I have to.

So it sounds like you disagree with putting the firm talalay on top of the medium dunlop.

Since I've "black and white" disagreed enough for one day ... I'll just say I don't believe it's optimal.

On the other hand it sort of sounds like you like the idea of the medium dunlop on top of the firm talalay? Or are you saying just get the firm dunlop? (And I assume layer soft over med-dunlop over firm-dunlop?)

My preference would be the firm Dunlop if it was on the bottom. For the first 25% they would be the same firmness but after than the Dunlop (if it had the same 25% ILD) would be firmer and since firmness is what you need on the bottom ... why use Talalay when it would have no advantage? The only advantage of the Talalay would be if the bottom layer compressed less than 25% which is the only "level of compression" where it may be firmer than the Dunlop (it starts off firmer and ends up softer ... in other words the response curves "cross" as compression gets deeper). The firmer it is the more it will "encourage" the upper 2 layers to "interact" to your advantage.

As I said I just tested the "dunlop" vs "talalay" and think I prefer the feel of talalay. I've tried soft over medium over firm all dunlop and that didn't work. I'm sort of curious to try soft over med over firm all talalay (which I could do if I get the firm talalay layer). And I could always swap a medium dunlop back in if its not firm enough...

"Feel" is a very different thing and can mean many things. Some of the "feel" comes from what is on top and some of it comes from what is underneath. For example how an innerspring reacts can create a different feel even it it's ability to provide comfort and support is the same as a different material. If the feel you mean would really come from the lowest layer of talalay and if it was important enough to you ...  then yes it would make sense to use Talalay over Dunlop even at a "tradeoff" of pressure relief and/or support. I guess what I am trying to get to is whether the "feel" you mean is coming from the upper 3" (in which case using Dunlop in the lower layers would make no difference since the top is already Talalay) or if the "feel" you are meaning is coming from the deeper layers (in which case you would be trading the "feel" for something else).

The risk in using a middle medium Talalay over a medium Dunlop is that you would sink in further than a Dunlop of the same ILD. If you went firmer with the middle talalay layer to compensate for this then it wouldn't work as well as a comfort layer.

If you know what you are "trading" (feel/comfort/support) ... then it's easier to "visualize" what each layer change can lead to.

Phoenix.

PS: I believe it is in the "misunderstanding" of the differences between Dunlop and Talalay that many of the "battles" about which is "better" come from. They are different and these differences can be used either to advantage or disadvantage. Those who by "accident or design" get to the best pressure relief and support with one easily come to believe that it is better. Those who do the same with the other believe the opposite. Both can lead to a "perfect design" in terms of pressure relief and comfort with unlimited choices in layer thickness and ILD so the only "built in" advantage of one or the other is in how it feels (the "intangibles) and this is a matter of preference not "better or worse". There is not even as much difference between the two as there are differences between latex in general and other constructions ... although the difference in "feel" is certainly noticeable. I also prefer the "feel" of Talalay however I would not trade this feel for pressure relief or support.

"Feel" is a very different thing and can mean many things. Some of the "feel" comes from what is on top and some of it comes from what is underneath.... I guess what I am trying to get to is whether the "feel" you mean is coming from the upper 3" (in which case using Dunlop in the lower layers would make no difference since the top is already Talalay) or if the "feel" you are meaning is coming from the deeper layers (in which case you would be trading the "feel" for something else).

Well I liked the feel of soft talalay over 2 medium talalays better than I liked soft talalay over 2 medium dunlops. So I would say the difference is coming from the dunlop "pushing back" more from the bottom 2 layers. 

The risk in using a middle medium Talalay over a medium Dunlop is that you would sink in further than a Dunlop of the same ILD. If you went firmer with the middle talalay layer to compensate for this then it wouldn't work as well as a comfort layer.

I don't think I ever suggested this. The question is do I get a firm dunlop or talalay. In either case I would probably try soft over med over firm. If it didn't feel firm enough I think I would also try soft over firm over medium. I can also try swapping the medium between dunlop and talalay to see if that makes a difference. 

I'm really just trying to be specific about what you think would work best, and what the backup plan would be if it doesn't work. Sounds like buy the firm dunlop (from now on I'm just gonna type d for dunlop and t for talalay) and layer soft-t over med-d over firm-d. And if thats not firm enough try soft-t over firm-d over med-d. If its too firm try the med-t in the middle over firm-d. Correct?