Mattress Forum

Phoenix

PS: This is the layering I was hoping to start with (except at the beginning I had suggested the convo on top instead of in the middle). I really do think that a single Dunlop is the "foundation" you will need as it is the firmest you have and that above this it's just a matter of getting to the right comfort layers on top of this without making them too thick and putting you out of alignment. A "middle" layer between comfort and support layers with what you have will probably always cause problems.

First = 3" Dunlop under 4.5" Talalay (counting the convo as 1.5). Convo on top would allow slightly more sinking in but it "bunches" and you are not as comfortable with the feel which is why I'm suggesting it in the middle for the first try.

Second = Convo over the talalay. I know this may not feel as good but it this "nails" it then you could always get a thin topper to replace it.

Third = Memory foam under 3" Talalay. This is a little more "unknown" as how it reacts would depend on the type of memory foam. If the foam "melts" under you then this could be a good combination as you would have 4" of soft over the soft very top of the Dunlop. What I do like about this is that it would only be a 4" comfort layer and with the convo there is still a danger that the comfort layer is too thick and could put you out of alignment.

Fourth = Memory foam over 3" Talalay. Waiting with this because I know you don't like sleeping on memory foam even though it may work well.

Fifth = Thin firm layers in between using what you have available in the house.

Sixth = Zoning using what you have. This would almost certainly solve your problems but it would involve cutting latex (which it seems you're already doing anyway lol)

Five and Six are "interchangeable depending on the feedback that comes from 1-4.

There is no doubt in my mind that the best possible solution is in these steps and the information we gain from them.

Phoenix

PS: I think we've pretty much ruled out the second Dunlop layer and none of these options involves using the medium Talalay as a single layer as I believe the odds are low (not zero) that it would help. While the medium Talalay may give you different "low odds" options from these, I would think it would be more appropriate to use it in the zoning step where it could come in very handy.

OK I found a standard mattress pad that I added to the existing config to see if that changes things. I'll start testing the other stuff tomorrow.

BTW, I posted a pic of the convo foam in the "can you cut latex?" thread. I think its pretty worn out and would be a problem even under the talalay. See what you think...

Thanks again

Steve
 

In any case I would probably still use it in the layering for long enough at least to get some information from using it because there isn't another softer thinner layer to add to the soft talalay.

I am thinking that it may be useful in a zoning scheme (when we get there) if you are thinking of cutting it up anyway. If it's softer than the medium Talalay it may prove useful in the shoulder area as part of testing an up/down split should we need to go there.

Phoenix

So first thing I tried was just the sleepez soft tal over the med dunlop. Surprisingly this didn't feel terrible to me - certainly better than the 2 soft talalays felt. It definitely caused pressure, again mostly on my hips; and it made me feel like I was rolling a bit; hard to explain but didn't feel stable? Anyway as I said not bad, although definitely not sleepable.

So then I tried the FBM latex over that and - for the 5 minutes I was on it, it felt pretty good. Definitely sunk in enough on my back, shoulders I think I need to sleep on it to tell. 

Since the FBM is thinner I thought maybe its better on top, even if its a bit firmer? So I didn't try it under the sleepez foam, even tho i suspect that layer is much better quality. So unless you see something wrong with this plan I thought I would sleep on this tonite (med dun, soft tal, 2" soft tal from FBM, mattress cover, mattress pad) and see how I feel in the morning. I suspect it will end up feeling too firm, but we can see.

In the meantime, it really seems like I need to order a high quality soft topper - any suggestions? (I live in Seattle area is you know of any local places, otherwise pls suggest mail order)...

I would wait just a little before ordering the topper as we have a few combinations to try with just the 3" Dunlop under that may come close to nailing it. If you do need a topper it would probably be because you didn't have anything soft enough or thin enough to use in the "best" layering scheme but to order now may be a little premature until we have tried the memory foam and (if you want to go there) zoning. The convo would be ideal to use for zoning as you could cut a decent piece of it for use under your shoulders and it is roughly the same height (uncompressed) I understand as the 3" sleepez.

I have to say again that the convo looks really strange to me. Even the fact that the pincores seem to have "filled up" on the picture was odd. Are they still there and just "covered" or were they only in the top?

Great feedback too with the 3" soft Talalay over the 3" Dunlop as well. That confirms to me that your "critical zone" is more than 3" and probably in the region of 4.

Phoenix

It didn't feel great to me, but it didn't feel bad either, and I slept pretty well. Definitely didn't have the "soft cushy" feel I would like, and I really didn't like sitting on the bed as it felt like it bottomed out that way. But when lying in bed, I didn't feel that, and although I felt some pressure on my shoulders and ribs it wasn't too bad. My back hurts a bit but thats been ongoing so I can't tell if this config had anything to do with that. So, can you make some sense from that?  

Whats really weird is, this is essentially the same as a previous config I tried except that time the top layer was a 3" soft tal piece from SleepEz and this time its a 2" piece from FBM (which may be firmer that the sleepez piece). And that config definitely felt too soft. 

The bottoming out from sitting on the side is pretty normal with latex and doesn't happen when you lay on it but if you end up nailing it then it's easy to solve with a REALLY firm layer under all of this. The reason we need something this thin on the bottom for the testing is that it's the only way to get close to having a firm enough support layer with what you have. Anything we test with more than this will almost certainly be problematic.

The "soft cushy" feel would usually come from the very upper part of the top layer (top inch or so or even what's over this). The three "moving parts" in a mattress are feel (subjective and connected with how far you sink in, how "soft feeling" the part you lay on is, and other subjective feelings), pressure relief/comfort, and support/alignment. All three of these can be very independent of each other. Even a very firm "feeling" mattress can relieve pressure and support but may be not so good in terms of how it feels to someone.

In the other thread, the "zoning" that was recommended is similar (not the same due to different layer thicknesses and a "single cut") to what you would have with your soft 3" sleepez in the upper section and your medium talalay in the lower section. the "critical zone" in that construction is "in the middle" of the 3" layer and it uses the soft upper half of the middle layer for pressure relief. You can either relieve pressure with a thinner layer over a "progressive" (close in ILD) slightly thicker one over firm or a thicker upper softer layer over much firmer. The difference would be in it's "feel" and alignment as the pressure relief would be very similar. Cutting up the convo and using it for the upper part with the soft sleepez on the bottom may also have enough "differential" to accomplish the same thing since the Sleepez soft is 22-24 and the convo ... whatever it is ... would be "acting much softer.

So far everything is "going as planned" ... at least since we started with the single Dunlop layer ... and pretty much comfirming what I was hoping to see ... including your experience last night. Your feedback has been great.

Given your feedback, it may feel softer with the FBM under (and may be slightly better with your shoulders) and it may be worth trying that as well. After that the memory foam under the sleepez would be what was left in terms of gathering information (and it would be closest to an optimal comfort thickness). From then on we would have a very good handle on what type of zoning would work if it was necessary and/or what type of new layer you would need.

I know this is a real hassle to "change things" all the time after you have been at it for so long and it's not so easy to do but I really do believe that with your really good feedback we are really close to knowing what will work for you in the longer term.

Phoenix

Phoenix

I'll try the FBM under the sleepez soft tonite and see how that feels. When I try the mem foam do you want me to add it to this config or are you suggesting i use the mem foam instead of the FBM foam?

Also, this isn't a hassle, its great! The hassle was changing things but having no idea how to make sense of the results. 

Steve
 

The memory foam would be instead of the FBM and would go under the soft sleepez. This would give you about 4" of comfort layering which in terms of thickness should be about right for you in "theoretical" terms (and so far confirmed by your feedback). What's in that 4" is the trick.

Phoenix