Mattress Forum

So first thing I tried was just the sleepez soft tal over the med dunlop. Surprisingly this didn't feel terrible to me - certainly better than the 2 soft talalays felt. It definitely caused pressure, again mostly on my hips; and it made me feel like I was rolling a bit; hard to explain but didn't feel stable? Anyway as I said not bad, although definitely not sleepable.

So then I tried the FBM latex over that and - for the 5 minutes I was on it, it felt pretty good. Definitely sunk in enough on my back, shoulders I think I need to sleep on it to tell. 

Since the FBM is thinner I thought maybe its better on top, even if its a bit firmer? So I didn't try it under the sleepez foam, even tho i suspect that layer is much better quality. So unless you see something wrong with this plan I thought I would sleep on this tonite (med dun, soft tal, 2" soft tal from FBM, mattress cover, mattress pad) and see how I feel in the morning. I suspect it will end up feeling too firm, but we can see.

In the meantime, it really seems like I need to order a high quality soft topper - any suggestions? (I live in Seattle area is you know of any local places, otherwise pls suggest mail order)...

I would wait just a little before ordering the topper as we have a few combinations to try with just the 3" Dunlop under that may come close to nailing it. If you do need a topper it would probably be because you didn't have anything soft enough or thin enough to use in the "best" layering scheme but to order now may be a little premature until we have tried the memory foam and (if you want to go there) zoning. The convo would be ideal to use for zoning as you could cut a decent piece of it for use under your shoulders and it is roughly the same height (uncompressed) I understand as the 3" sleepez.

I have to say again that the convo looks really strange to me. Even the fact that the pincores seem to have "filled up" on the picture was odd. Are they still there and just "covered" or were they only in the top?

Great feedback too with the 3" soft Talalay over the 3" Dunlop as well. That confirms to me that your "critical zone" is more than 3" and probably in the region of 4.

Phoenix

It didn't feel great to me, but it didn't feel bad either, and I slept pretty well. Definitely didn't have the "soft cushy" feel I would like, and I really didn't like sitting on the bed as it felt like it bottomed out that way. But when lying in bed, I didn't feel that, and although I felt some pressure on my shoulders and ribs it wasn't too bad. My back hurts a bit but thats been ongoing so I can't tell if this config had anything to do with that. So, can you make some sense from that?  

Whats really weird is, this is essentially the same as a previous config I tried except that time the top layer was a 3" soft tal piece from SleepEz and this time its a 2" piece from FBM (which may be firmer that the sleepez piece). And that config definitely felt too soft. 

The bottoming out from sitting on the side is pretty normal with latex and doesn't happen when you lay on it but if you end up nailing it then it's easy to solve with a REALLY firm layer under all of this. The reason we need something this thin on the bottom for the testing is that it's the only way to get close to having a firm enough support layer with what you have. Anything we test with more than this will almost certainly be problematic.

The "soft cushy" feel would usually come from the very upper part of the top layer (top inch or so or even what's over this). The three "moving parts" in a mattress are feel (subjective and connected with how far you sink in, how "soft feeling" the part you lay on is, and other subjective feelings), pressure relief/comfort, and support/alignment. All three of these can be very independent of each other. Even a very firm "feeling" mattress can relieve pressure and support but may be not so good in terms of how it feels to someone.

In the other thread, the "zoning" that was recommended is similar (not the same due to different layer thicknesses and a "single cut") to what you would have with your soft 3" sleepez in the upper section and your medium talalay in the lower section. the "critical zone" in that construction is "in the middle" of the 3" layer and it uses the soft upper half of the middle layer for pressure relief. You can either relieve pressure with a thinner layer over a "progressive" (close in ILD) slightly thicker one over firm or a thicker upper softer layer over much firmer. The difference would be in it's "feel" and alignment as the pressure relief would be very similar. Cutting up the convo and using it for the upper part with the soft sleepez on the bottom may also have enough "differential" to accomplish the same thing since the Sleepez soft is 22-24 and the convo ... whatever it is ... would be "acting much softer.

So far everything is "going as planned" ... at least since we started with the single Dunlop layer ... and pretty much comfirming what I was hoping to see ... including your experience last night. Your feedback has been great.

Given your feedback, it may feel softer with the FBM under (and may be slightly better with your shoulders) and it may be worth trying that as well. After that the memory foam under the sleepez would be what was left in terms of gathering information (and it would be closest to an optimal comfort thickness). From then on we would have a very good handle on what type of zoning would work if it was necessary and/or what type of new layer you would need.

I know this is a real hassle to "change things" all the time after you have been at it for so long and it's not so easy to do but I really do believe that with your really good feedback we are really close to knowing what will work for you in the longer term.

Phoenix

Phoenix

I'll try the FBM under the sleepez soft tonite and see how that feels. When I try the mem foam do you want me to add it to this config or are you suggesting i use the mem foam instead of the FBM foam?

Also, this isn't a hassle, its great! The hassle was changing things but having no idea how to make sense of the results. 

Steve
 

The memory foam would be instead of the FBM and would go under the soft sleepez. This would give you about 4" of comfort layering which in terms of thickness should be about right for you in "theoretical" terms (and so far confirmed by your feedback). What's in that 4" is the trick.

Phoenix

OK, so I swapped the FBM foam and the sleepez foam last night, didn't feel much of a difference. I didn't sleep as well last night but I think that's more due to the bad cold I picked up. 

I'm concerned about using just the mem foam with the 2 sleepez layers. My mem foam is on the cheaper, thinner, meltier side. Maybe 1" tops, and you pretty much sink right thru it. I think it would pretty much like sleeping on just those 2 layers, and I think thats a bit hard. But, again, I'll try it if it really tells us something. Altho I'd rather try the 3 sleepez layers with the mem foam on top 

Steve
 

But resistance is futile (laughing) ... unless it's pushback resistance from the mattress.

The reasoning for the memory foam under the soft sleepez is as follows...

For the moment we need a firm support base so that we can "isolate" the comfort layers for testing. If we add the medium in the mix it will affect how the comfort layers respond too much and we wouldn't get the information we need to determine what the best comfort configuration would be. The absolute best way to test a comfort configuration is a rock hard surface like the floor but that is too hard to sleep for longer term overnight feedback so the next best underlying layer to test a comfort configuration is the firmest layer you have which is the compressed single layer of Dunlop.

The memory foam under the sleepez will act more like "regular foam" (less or at least slower melting) and is the closest combination we have to test a 4" comfort layer. This feedback will tell us how close we are taking into account the possibilities that are possible with changing what is in 4" rather than changing the thickness. For alignment purposes, 4" is probably the closest we have been (with something firm under it). More than this and you are risking misalignment, less than this and you are risking pressure. The memory foam under may "act" more like 3.5" but it's still the best next step.

If we put the memory foam on top ... first you don't like the feel and second it is so thin and probably "meltable" there that we would be testing an "equivalent" thickness that was even less than using it underneath. My goal for now is to test something as close to 4" as a comfort layer as we can using the softest 4" of material that we can.

Phoenix

PS: if you think that another night or two on what you have now would be worthwhile to gain more accurate feedback on a 5" comfort layer, then that would be valuable as well before we "switch".

BTW, I didn't like the mem foam when I literally slept right on it (outside of the mattress, only a sheet on top). It was fine with the wool mattress pad on top, and I assume it would be fine anywhere in the mattress (with the mattress cover and a mattress pad on top)...

I guess I really don't get where we are going, or how this info will change things. It sounds like we're pretty sure I need a firm (4-6") core with a soft (4") top. Right?

Exactly. This is the first configuration that we have tested a 4" top on a firm base. Everything else has been thicker in the comfort layers which can lead to alignment issues. While it may not be the "correct" 4", and there are also advantages to a thicker firmer base (has a bigger range to support different positions), it's the closest we have to test out this thickness and layering using what we have available.

A medium Talalay added to this layering would play a "dual role". It would act to both soften the support and thicken the comfort layers. Both of which are probably problematic.

After a night ... or two  on this, I plan go over everything "with a fine tooth comb" first to make sure the patterns and your feedback are re-inforcing each other before suggesting another step.

Phoenix