| i have a sleepez bed that I keep trying to soften by adding more layers of foam in the case. So I now have 4.5 layers in a case meant for 3 layers. The case still zips, but I wonder if I am compressing the foam so much that it is affecting the feel. I have talalay latex, which always felt springy to me, but I am wondering if this made it more springy? Or if this is bad for the foam? |
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Phoenix wrote: Based on the testing we did, I would be a little wary about a mattress that thick. There's a lot of material to "sink down" into which could cause alignment issues. Every time you used 2 mediums underneath you tended to "sink down" too far and I would think that a bottom layer of medium dunlop would allow more sinking down than a firm foundation and so would be risky. I think 12" may be better for someone that weighs a lot more than you do and even then I would be wary and only go there if something thinner didn't work. I think that beyond 9-10" or so (one sided 6"+4") that zoning is usually more likely to solve a really difficult issue than "thickness". Phoenix I'm also an engineer / programmer (retired though) and it seems to me like there should be a formula for this. Seriously. Like 3" of firm foam (as a core / support layer) for every 30lbs of body weight or something like that. So, if you weigh 150 you can get by with 5", but someone like me (240) would need 8" of foam. Obv this is just a random guess. But it seems intuitively right to me that a heavier person would need a thicker firm core??? If that sort of worked then you could just buy the core you need and play with "comfort" layers til it felt good. Man that would be easier! Steve |
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I'm no "mathematical wizard" but in several of my previous "research" efforts I did develop algorithms of sorts that reflected many moving parts. I also think that this approach would work here to at least approximate something pretty accurate. Of course if would depend a lot on the experiences and perceptions that were "input" since people use the same words to describe very different experiences (pain being one) that can have multiple causes ... but with a good enough "questionaire" for inputting values, I believe that an algorithm of sorts would work very well here as well. I am also convinced that working on only one of the three "factors" at a time (Feel/Preferences, Comfort/Pressure relief, and Support/Spinal alignment) and then "putting them all together" when each is known is way more effective at getting to the best outcome. Phoenix |
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Given that there are 2 "basic" approaches to construction (differential and progressive ... although there are variations and other schemes as well) ... once you've decided on one or the other then the rest becomes much easier. Differential is a "safer" way to go with a support core first and then playing with comfort layers that are more "independent" of the support layers. Because "progressive" layering uses part of an underlying or overlying layer more, it is more difficult to get the support right even if you can get to the right comfort layers more easily. I personally prefer the "differential" approach for most people only because it is generally "safer" and easier to build. Since it always involves firmer support cores that are more based on weight and weight distribution, it is easier to build comfort on top of it. The progressive approach is more "nuanced" and many times involves changes and "transition layers" that affect both support and comfort more. Getting one right can very easily put the other one out of kilter. Because it has "finer" adjustments, It may end up being more "accurate" however and can be the difference between 80% and 95% perfection. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 26, 2010 by Phoenix
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You should write a book on this!
At the very least someone should collect your posts (& other good ones) and make them "stickies" - I assume you know what that is, but if not, its a collection of posts that answer the most commonly asked questions and stay at the top of the forum all the time. People basically ask 10 questions on this forum - and those have been answered 100 times, 100 ways. Awfully hard to find the best answers without something like FAQs or stickies. Wonder if there is an admin who might do this?? This message was modified Dec 26, 2010 by st3v3k4hn
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I've been working on writing something as a "guideline" that is a little simpler than my previous efforts but I always find that there are so many "important" things to include that it becomes "Charlie Brown's teacher" like (in Leo's words :)) and gets too complicated for what I would think most people want to read. I think that most people just want to get the "chore" over and done with as quickly as possible and would probably be happy with 70 - 80% but that would also leave out the people who wanted more "accuracy" or had more complex situations and were willing to spend a little more time and research on their choice. It'll probably be a while before I find the balance that is the "most effective". I did at least get to some kind of definition of a "perfect mattress" though ... A perfect mattress is the one that feels wonderful in every way when you first lay on it, that forms a "perfect for you" pressure relieving cradle in all your sleeping positions, and that seems like it "floats" on top of perfectly supporting lower layers that keep you in alignment all night long. This is the equivalent of "sleeping on a cloud". I guess that's a start (laughing). Phoenix |
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Phoenix wrote: Given that there are 2 "basic" approaches to construction (differential and progressive ... although there are variations and other schemes as well) ... once you've decided on one or the other then the rest becomes much easier. Differential is a "safer" way to go with a support core first and then playing with comfort layers that are more "independent" of the support layers. Because "progressive" layering uses part of an underlying or overlying layer more, it is more difficult to get the support right even if you can get to the right comfort layers more easily. I personally prefer the "differential" approach for most people only because it is generally "safer" and easier to build. Since it always involves firmer support cores that are more based on weight and weight distribution, it is easier to build comfort on top of it. The progressive approach is more "nuanced" and many times involves changes and "transition layers" that affect both support and comfort more. Getting one right can very easily put the other one out of kilter. Because it has "finer" adjustments, It may end up being more "accurate" however and can be the difference between 80% and 95% perfection. Phoenix Uh oh Charlie Brown's teacher is here, LOL, seriously though what the heck do you mean? Differential? Progressive, like bifocals, LOL. Talk layman terms for dummies please. Do you mean a hard as rock core, then soft? Do you mean Firm, medium, then soft is worse to do for fine tuning? |
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st3v3k4hn wrote: You should write a book on this!
At the very least someone should collect your posts (& other good ones) and make them "stickies" - I assume you know what that is, but if not, its a collection of posts that answer the most commonly asked questions and stay at the top of the forum all the time. People basically ask 10 questions on this forum - and those have been answered 100 times, 100 ways. Awfully hard to find the best answers without something like FAQs or stickies. Wonder if there is an admin who might do this?? Just PM Admin, there is a stickies already at the top of the page. If he likes he posts You asked about is the blanket enough to protect the latex, yes. You just are protecting it from light and dirt. When I used the Natura wool with polyester backing that was rough it ripped up my latex, so no that is not good. Luckily that latex is no longer used, it was shredded from that backing of the topper. You don't need a zipper case for my uses. Maybe for yours you need or want it too look good. But mine has a sheet over it and is not seen. Some do it yourself people used the terry cloth zipper over 3 layers of latex and it is protected enough. This message was modified Dec 27, 2010 by Leo3
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"Uh oh Charlie Brown's teacher is here, LOL, seriously though what the heck do you mean? Differential? Progressive, like bifocals, LOL. Talk layman terms for dummies please. Do you mean a hard as rock core, then soft? Do you mean Firm, medium, then soft is worse to do for fine tuning?" Differential approach means a bigger difference in ILD between the comfort layer(s) and the support layer(s). Say 3" of say 19 - 22 ILD over 6" of 36 or 40 ILD (or soft over firm) Progressive approach means a smaller difference in ILD between the comfort layer(s) and the support layers(s) say 3" of 22 ILD over 3" of 28 ILD over 3" of 40 ILD (or soft over medium over firm) Starting with Soft, Medium, Firm can be much more difficult to adjust because it's sort of a "compromise" of both comfort and support and trying to change the comfort ends up affecting the support as well (and vice versa) more than the other one. You can often get "more accurate" this way and change the overall "feel" of a mattress more but it can be a lot harder. Phoenix PS: you're a tough nut to crack ... but a great "testing ground" for what I "try to" write (laughing). This message was modified Dec 27, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: Differential approach means a bigger difference in ILD between the comfort layer(s) and the support layer(s). Say 3" of say 19 - 22 ILD over 6" of 36 or 40 ILD (or soft over firm) Progressive approach means a smaller difference in ILD between the comfort layer(s) and the support layers(s) say 3" of 22 ILD over 3" of 28 ILD over 3" of 40 ILD (or soft over medium over firm) Starting with Soft, Medium, Firm can be much more difficult to adjust because it's sort of a "compromise" of both comfort and support and trying to change the comfort ends up affecting the support as well (and vice versa) more than the other one. You can often get "more accurate" this way and change the overall "feel" of a mattress more but it can be a lot harder. Phoenix PS: you're a tough nut to crack ... but a great "testing ground" for what I "try to" write (laughing). Okay so I have a "differential" setup with my hard mattress, then soft layer top. You are saying that is better? I notice Sleepeze 99.999% always recommends soft, medium, firm, so that is a tougher to get comfortable from the readers posting here. But you are saying (the last paragraph) you can often get "more accurate" this way... but it can be a lot harder. I don't know about me being a tough nut to crack, or what that means, LOL, but I am more honest than most if I don't understand something I say so. |
Maybe I am asking what some other people are thinking and not posting.
"I don't know about me being a tough nut to crack, or what that means, LOL, but I am more honest than most if I don't understand something I say so.  Maybe I am asking what some other people are thinking and not posting." You probably are posting what lots of people are thinking and not posting ... that's why I said you were a great testing ground. The "tough nut to crack" means you are challenging me (in a good way) to be a better combination of simple and informative and that if what I post "works" for you it will probably "work" for lots of people ... but it's tough to get there :) Sometimes too it's important (to me at least) to go into more detail than most would want just for the few that may like to read "every technicality" or every "opinion" I may have or know about. This is what some of the old posters (dbhayes, cloud9 and quite a few others) that sadly aren't posting anymore used to do as well in the old forum and the earlier part of this one and it really helped lots of people as well ... including me. There doesn't seem to be quite as much "research based" type of posts at the moment as there once was. There's a lot of people still here from those times that still post and help a lot of people so they might have an interesting perspective on this as well. Did they all get tired or did the switch in forums really have that big an effect? Yes ... you have a "differential" setup which is easier to get "close". The progressive setup could end up better (at least for some) but can take a lot of patience, fiddling, or "correct predictions" sometimes to get there. It might also need "non standard" layer thicknesses outside of just 2" or 3" to get to "perfection". Which one is "better" really depends on the person but in my experience getting to 80 - 90% or so is probably good enough for most and this is often easier to get to with the "differential" approach. If Soft medium firm with maybe one layer exchange is "close enough" for someone, then they are happy. If it's not close enough, or if someone really needs something closer to "the best for them" and one layer exchange doesn't get there, then it often starts an endless series of adjustments that seem too often to "fall short". Sometimes it's because none of the choices seem to work (for usually unknown to them reasons) and sometimes it's because they just run out of patience or will and think that "nothing will work". Phoenix This message was modified Dec 27, 2010 by Phoenix
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