Mattress Forum

I am 170 lb 60 yr old male, back and side sleeper, lower back pain, and still searching, after 20 mattresses, thousands of dollars, perhaps 100 toppers and combos. Search shovel99 for comparative comments about toppers... though I admit I am not there yet.... so take my comments with a grain of salt.

However, I believe the solution for us back pain folks will be as firm as you can stand underneath and just enough soft on top... whichever kind of soft floats your boat... as iis necessary to accommodate your backbone.

I have assumed that around 2 inches minimum of comfort layer, but am inclined with sandman to believe that I need a spring system underneath to accommodate the backbone on sider or back.. which is a real problem, because I am a flipper... and what is good for back sleep (firmer, flatter) does not work well for side sleeper (fit shoulders and hip).\

For all those reasons I have found that I need at minimum 14 ILD latex or 4 lbd dens. memory foam topper on top( 1 inch) and slightly firmer next 1 inch (FBM 20 ILD).

But I am also finding that the Firm Serta Auburn Perfect Sleeper apparently has a hard comfort layer wrap of some type on top of the coils.. so it is not letting the springs accommodate, and is hurting my back by feeling more like a stiff hammock than springs.

I have read in several places that interlinked springs (Sealy, Serta) are better for support lumbar... but have slept all my adult life on Simmons Beautyrest (this all started for me about 4 years ago when I bought a new firm Simm BR because my 110 lb back sleeper bride wanted a firmer bed...and I haveh't slept since....).

Simmons BR are individual pocketed coils..  which accommodate better.... more like the latexes in that regard... so I may have to go back there.

If you do some searches here, you will find a lot of comments about different layers.

Soft on top.... 1-2 inches 14-20 ILD.   Med firm... then firm on bottom.

I know that is not much to go on, but there is a lot here to dig out.

Good luck... hope you find your solution faster than I have!

shovel99

I think your basic plan sounds about right if you want a fairly firm mattress.  If you want to go with all latex, you may want to consider some place like Sleepez, foamsweetfoam, or flobeds.   You will be able to taylor something to both of your needs (both sides can be different), and it comes with a zippered case and return option.

If you are trying to save money, you can try to piece together yourself.   Where are you thinking of buying the various pieces? Are you going to have a cover for them?

It is also good to speak in terms of ILD ratings.  One places xfirm might be equivalent to someone elses firm.  So, what exact ILD ratings are on the pieces you are considering?

It seems that each of us learn by trial an error, so you really will have to test for yourself.   What I think is too firm, you might think is too soft. 

Because I already have a couple of components, and because I don't have a huge budget, I was thinking of piecing something together myself. My only buying experience so far has been with FBM. But having just looked back over my original invoice, it appears I have two 1" medium toppers. I thought they were firm. I'm almost positive I ordered firm. I guess I don't know what I have, since I have no means for comparison. As of now the FBM website lists no firm topper, so maybe they really are medium. If their info is accurate, they're 32 ild.

In looking around, about the only firm & extra firm components sold individually that I can find are at sleeplikeabear. They have firm and extrafirm 5.6" cores in 40 and 44 ild. And they have 1" 35 ild toppers.

So, I was vaguely thinking:

2" 35 ild

6" core 40 or 44 ild

plus to the two apparently medium pieces I have already, ~32 ild.

Does it sound like this would result in something viable?

I'll get a cover if that seems necessary. I've been reading other posts from people saying the layers stick together just fine without one. I'd definitely want a good wool pad, though, because I tend to be a hot sleeper.

I really appreciate the help. I desperately need to do something, and it's a little scary to spend this kind of money somewhat blindly.

  If you really want firm you can consider dunlop latex.  I think 6" of around 40 dunlop would be very firm though.

Personally, I stick with talalay with a slight preference for the 100% natural over the blended.

Sleepez might be able to get you something in that firmness (38-40) as well for 6" if you call them.   It looks like SLAB actually has a better price in 6" blended talalay.

It is possible that you might just want to get the 6" and add the 2" you have, and try to decide from that what else you want to add.  I would think that combination would be pretty firm.  Most people seem to like something even softer than 32 on top (Flobbeds for example comes with a 2" convoluted topper that is somewhat soft).

The layers do stick together, but kind of nice to have something over to protect them.  I good mattress pad that tooks in might be sufficient.

A wool topper is a nice thing to have as well.  This will add some comfort and temperature moderation.  Gaiam has a sale on them right now, but not totally sure of the quality (seems okay).  Natura is another brand.  Also, you can find some on Amazon and walmart.com. 

p.s.  6" of latex will be a very heavy and unwieldy thing.  What size are you getting?   You may want to consider to 3" pieces. 

If I buy two 3" pieces I might have more options, too. SLAB seemed to be the only one selling 6".

Between the 40 ild or 44 ild, is there one people tend to prefer more? We do like firm beds, but I also don't have much of a frame of reference for how firm that might me. I don't want to go overboard.

I am not aware of anyone on here that has 6" of 44.   Many of the Flobed people have 6" of 36.  I think a recent guy is trying 3" of 44 (SF) and 3" of 36 (XF in flobed terms) and he weighs much more than you. 

If you go the 3" route, the 2 can be different.  I think 44 would be too firm for 6", but everyone has different tastes.    So I would tend towards the 40, or you could do something like 3" of 40 and 3" of 44.   Or even 3" of 36 and 3" of 44.  Putting the 44 over the 36 (or 40) would be a bit firmer than the other way around, so it gives you a little flexibility.

And if you really want firm, you might consider dunlop.  38-40 of that is probably like 44 talalay.  I know, very confusing.

SLAB has a 30 day return policy.  You lose shipping costs and maybe a restocking fee, at least if you totally hate it you can get most of your money back.
 

Sleepez does carry 38-40 and 44 when you buy the whole mattress (see firmness choices), so I am pretty sure they would sell 3" layers of those to you as well.  They will charge some shipping, where SLAB won't.  Not sure if you could return to sleepez either, so SLAB is now looking pretty competitve.  Foamsweetfoam use to sell the individual layers, but I don't see on their website.  You could call to find out.   SLAB and foamsweetfoam will charge tax within California.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think 6 inches of 40 ILD would be plenty firm enough for anyone as a base.  Just make the top comfort layers what you need for you individual back issues.   I'd suggest something in the 28-32 range on top with thickness depending on your weight.

Is it feesible to sleep temporarily on just 5" (the other 2" would be the 32 ild pieces I have already), while I'm waiting for the next 3" to arrive? All of this will be going on a slat bed (with peg board, if needed).

If you get just the 3" of 40, you can try folding it half ( for testing purposes) and putting on your 2" of other latex.  That will help you tell what you want to do with the next 3".  However, there is nothing like sleeping a whole night on it to really know.  Maybe one off  you could try it on your own if you have a spare bed. 
 

How thick, wide and far a part are your slats?  Is there any center support?

Are you sure your current springs are bad?  How old and what brand? Did you remove all of the foam and put in your 2" of latex and it is still too soft?  Does it sag in a lot if you like directly on the springs?

To be fair, the springs probably aren't completely shot. But where we each sleep there's a noticeable dip, with the usual hump running down the middle. They springs have lost the firmness we bought the mattress for. It was made by a local company, their "top of the line," and we got it about two years ago. It's possible there are Serta parts. The company seems to have some sort of partnership with them.

Several months ago I ripped out the original foam and replaced it with the 32 ild from FBM. That improved things somewhat, but the dip is still there, if less significant. As far as my back is concerned, though, it's more or less the same.

I just rolled back the latex to check the springs themselves and I realize that when I pulled up the PU foam I left the gray, woolly looking stuff that directly covers the springs. I assumed that needed to be there to protect the latex from tearing. I wonder if some of the dip might be in there. There's at least an inch of it. Maybe 1 1/2". Is it safe to rip that out?

I suppose it's possible that a firmer piece of latex on top of the springs might lessen the dip more than the 2" of 32 ild currently does. Maybe the topper just isn't firm enough. But it still feels like some degree of dip will be there no matter what. But maybe with something firmer between me and the springs it can be mitigated to the point that my back doesn't mind.