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I'm trying to figure out a good configuration for latex layers to alleviate some lower back pain, and I'd love to get some feedback from forum members experienced with this kind of thing. I have no local access to latex components, so I'm basing this on what I've read from others on the forum. Our current mattress, the firmest we could find, began to sag and lose support shortly after we bought it. The addition of a 2" firm latex topper (and removal of PU foam) helped somewhat, but it appears the springs are the underlying problem. I wake up every morning with significant stiffness across my lower back and hips. We're in our mid-thirties. At 6', 170 lbs, I'm the largest. I generally prefer to sleep on my stomach/back, but with our current mattress stomach sleeping is painful, so I've become a back/side sleeper. My wife is predominantly a side sleeper, but she's also more or less unaffected by our current problem. I know we'll have to do some experimenting to get the right combination, but I'd really like to hear some suggestions about where to start. I already have 2" of firm from FBM. --Firm vs. extra firm core? --Do most people with overall firm mattresses still have some softer components? Ultimately I'm wondering which components I should begin shuffling around. Something like the following (although maybe not in that order)? wool pad This message was modified Sep 4, 2010 by a_bear
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a_bear wrote: Yes, there are two strong supports in the center. It's a very solid bed frame.
You're right, the middle feels like it did when we bought it (and now I sleep there whenever I can). We opted to skip the box spring, assuming the slats would suffice. The mattress people didn't try to talk us out of it. Was that a mistake? As I said, in addition to being relatively new to latex and I'm also very new to spring mattresses. Little did we know the can of worms we were opening by buying our first "real" bed. It is pretty unusual to have an innerspring with no box spring. I am not sure what impact that might have. If anything, I would think it would be firmer, because a box spring has some give. I know they say a box spring increases the life of a mattress, but I always assumed that was marketing hype. Maybe something to it. So, you have a metal frame with center supports and wood slats (or are they metal?) going across horizontally about 3" apart? A picture would be helpful! How thick and sturdy are the slats? If those are sagging, that could be the problem. Not sure if that would happen over time, since they did not seem to be a problem when it was new. One test (a big hassle I know) would be to try the mattress directly on the floor. If it still seems to dip too much, then it probably is a lost cause. Frimer latex might help, but it seems to me that it should be firm enough with just 2" of 32 on the springs. For most of us that would be too firm. |
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Correct: metal frame, wooden horizontal slats 3" apart. The slats seem pretty sturdy and none of them appear to be sagging. The bed is the same age as the mattress. I'm posting a picture from below (please forgive the dust bunnies). I'll see if I can get the mattress on the floor later.
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That is helpful. They look pretty sturdy. If you push down on one of them does it give very much? It is possible that the structure of a box springs or platform helps distribute the weight so it doesn't sag. I am not enough of an engineer to figure that out. However, there may be a reason that they always have some height to them. If you had some help, maybe you could lie on it and someone else look underneath to see if the slats are dipping down. They might have to hold up a yardstick or something like that next to one of the middle slats to tell. Certainly the floor test would tell you for sure how much firmer it could be with a different platform/box spring. |
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Well that was a little exhausting, but worthwhile. I laid the mattress on the floor. The dip was a little less marked, I think. And it makes sense that it would be. The supports in the middle of the bed frame ensure that the mattress won't bend at all in the middle, even under our body weight, whereas the slats where we sleep naturally will, since they're not supported. That's what they're designed to do. So when I lay in the middle and think the mattress is firmer there that's because of the center supports. So, maybe my indictment of the springs was a little unfair. They definitely have lost some of their firmness, but the dip might not be as significant as I thought. And I guess it's an argument in favor of using a box spring on a slat bed. But in this case I suspect a box spring wouldn't solve the firmness problem. As you say, sandman, it might make the bed even softer. And it sounds like replacing the medium toppers I have with something firmer won't solve the spring softness problem either. Which brings me back to where I started. Sort of. I've been doing a bit more reading at some of the complete latex bed stores online. FSF mentions that people accustomed to futons tend to like to sleep on a firm top over an extra firm core. Given my preferences, Flobeds recommends a firm and extra firm combo. All of this has got me to wondering if the two medium pieces I have from FBM might ultimately be of no use to me. It's hard to know, though, because I don't entirely know what ILD the FBM pieces are. Maybe 32. For FSF, firm ranges from 29-34. If I have to buy all the pieces it would get expensive to DIY it. At SLAB, getting two 3" cores and 2" of something else will run us more than $1,600. Add a case and a mattress pad and we'll be at $2,000 (Foamsource, the only other place that seems to sell F & XF components charges even more). $2,000 is about what it costs to get a complete setup at Sleepez and FSF. Sleepez might actually be a little cheaper... This message was modified Sep 7, 2010 by a_bear
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a_bear wrote: Well that was a little exhausting, but worthwhile. I laid the mattress on the floor. The dip was a little less marked, I think. And it makes sense that it would be. The supports in the middle of the bed frame ensure that the mattress won't bend at all in the middle, even under our body weight, whereas the slats where we sleep naturally will, since they're not supported. That's what they're designed to do. So when I lay in the middle and think the mattress is firmer there that's because of the center supports.
So, maybe my indictment of the springs was a little unfair. They definitely have lost some of their firmness, but the dip might not be as significant as I thought. And I guess it's an argument in favor of using a box spring on a slat bed. But in this case I suspect a box spring wouldn't solve the firmness problem. As you say, sandman, it might make the bed even softer. And it sounds like replacing the medium toppers I have with something firmer won't solve the spring softness problem either. Which brings me back to where I started. Sort of. I've been doing a bit more reading at some of the complete latex bed stores online. Sleepez mentions somewhere (now I can't find it) that people accustomed to futons tend to like to sleep on a firm top over an extra firm core. Given my preferences, Flobeds recommends a firm and extra firm combo. All of this has got me to wondering if the two medium pieces I have from FBM might ultimately be of no use to me. Which means a DYI setup might not make as much sense financially, since I'd have to buy all the pieces. At SLAB, getting two 3" cores and 2" of something else will run us more than $1,600. Add a case and a mattress pad and we'll be at $2,000 (Foamsource, the only other place that seems to sell F & XF components charges even more). $2,000 is about what it costs to get a complete setup at Sleepez and FSF. Sleepez might actually be a little cheaper... FBM has a weird reputation for quality, so hard to say exactly what ILD you have. It is possible that it is something less. Does it feel pretty dense and somewhat firm (kind of hard tell really just buy squeezing unless you have a basis of comparison)? By the way, Flobeds firm is ~32ILD, so firm on top would in theory be like your FBM. Some here have used 3 3" layers of XF with the convoluted layer on top. It is possible that you like things firmer than just about anyone in this Forum. There is definite value in going the total package route: you get a wool filled cover, you can exchange layers to get the right fit, you can have each side different, you can return the whole thing if nothing works out. You still might need a foundation. Here is what the Flobeds one looks like. It is 3/4" fir and bolted on the sides. Are you slats bolted down? How thick are they? If they are not bolted they might sag slightly more because they can pull in a little from the sides . Yours also looks they might be thinner than 3/4", but hard to tell from the picture. |
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It felt really pretty soft. I can't see it working. I think all those futons have spoiled me for anything even remotely soft. Our slats are 1/2" or thereabouts. Not bolted but pretty firmly fixed in place with rubbery end-cap sleeves. Do the package beds require a separate mattress pad? I'm thinking most particularly of Sleepez, which has the firmness options I like, a good rep, and prices I can stomach (somewhat). At lot of them talk about wool in their descriptions of their covers, but I'm not sure if they expect you to use a pad in addition or if the cover suffices. FSF is one that prices pads separately. I'm wondering if I need to be adding $200 more for that to the package price. Given the uncertainty of the FBM pieces and my inexperience with latex, a returnable/swappable package is starting to look like a smarter approach, especially if the price difference isn't that great. |
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a_bear wrote: It felt really pretty soft. I can't see it working. I think all those futons have spoiled me for anything even remotely soft.
Our slats are 1/2" or thereabouts. Not bolted but pretty firmly fixed in place with rubbery end-cap sleeves. Do the package beds require a separate mattress pad? I'm thinking most particularly of Sleepez, which has the firmness options I like, a good rep, and prices I can stomach (somewhat). At lot of them talk about wool in their descriptions of their covers, but I'm not sure if they expect you to use a pad in addition or if the cover suffices. FSF is one that prices pads separately. I'm wondering if I need to be adding $200 more for that to the package price. Given the uncertainty of the FBM pieces and my inexperience with latex, a returnable/swappable package is starting to look like a smarter approach, especially if the price difference isn't that great.
Here is rollout slat foundation. They use 3/4" slats 1.5" or 2" apart. So, I have a feeling your slats probably flex a bit more than most foundations. I am not sure if that is a problem, but probably not optimal. Can you add more slats to it? You may want to add or move some towards the center. One thing that some people have done to shore up a sagging mattress is to put some towels or something like that on top of the box spring in the sagging area. That may be difficult on your slat foundation and probably a tempory fix at best. You can use any mattress pad you want. A good one might be a plus (St. Dormier wool filled), but probalby not necessary if you have one already. If you find it too hot with a cheaper on, then you may want to buy a better one. |
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We've both been sick this past week and my wife decided to sleep in the other room for three nights. I took the opportunity to sleep on the hump, where the center support keeps the mattress from dipping at all. Three days in a row I woke up with no back pain. So it turns out maybe I like a mattress with nothing springy under it at all. As an experiment, the last two nights I've slept with a piace of 1/4" plywood on top of the slats beneath my lower back. Not quite as good as the hump, but better than it was. Today I'm trying with a piece of 1x4 that I've trimmed to fit snuggly between the slats below my pelvis, raising my hips a bit to take the pressure off the lower back. We'll see how that works. It probably won't do my hips any favors if I roll onto my side, but it's worth a try. If all else fails, I may cover all the slats with a 1/2" piece of plywood, and then the entire bed should feel like the hump. Who knows, maybe another alternative to Lovegasoline's idea about a stiffening agent. |
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a_bear wrote:
We've both been sick this past week and my wife decided to sleep in the other room for three nights. I took the opportunity to sleep on the hump, where the center support keeps the mattress from dipping at all. Three days in a row I woke up with no back pain. So it turns out maybe I like a mattress with nothing springy under it at all.
As an experiment, the last two nights I've slept with a piace of 1/4" plywood on top of the slats beneath my lower back. Not quite as good as the hump, but better than it was. Today I'm trying with a piece of 1x4 that I've trimmed to fit snuggly between the slats below my pelvis, raising my hips a bit to take the pressure off the lower back. We'll see how that works. It probably won't do my hips any favors if I roll onto my side, but it's worth a try. If all else fails, I may cover all the slats with a 1/2" piece of plywood, and then the entire bed should feel like the hump. Who knows, maybe another alternative to Lovegasoline's idea about a stiffening agent. The 1/2" plywood might be a good test, and possibly put a folded towel or blanket on top of the board and under the area that is sagging too much to see if that adds some support. This message was modified Sep 14, 2010 by sandman
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I just jumped in again here again, have been AWOL in swapping out a scuff mattress I have to keep.. and experimenting with my "surgery". See my post as it relates to your efforts. Several notes: I found that as little as 1/2 inch of pretty soft poly... probably 20 ILD.. on top of the felt on top of my Serta "firm" springs took a substantial amount of the "bend" or accommodation out of my springs. For my 170 lbs side sleeper that was a bad thing, so I took it out. You are on the right track to "stiffen up" a layer above the springs. Let me make a suggestion: before plunking big dollars for "base foam" out of latex, experiment with similar firmness poly foam from www.foamdistributing.com as I have. Their HD 36 (for High Density) Poly foam is quite firm.. and will feel very much like a poor man's "Medium" 35 ILD latex (gee, what a surprise!). You can buy that very cheap. I have also been experimenting with and have compared their "supersoft foam" which I believe feels very close to Foambymail's (the other division of same company.. different website, though for some unknown reason???) 20 ILD latex. So buy a couple of pieces of HD 36 in 1 inch thickness.. you can fold both if necessary.. and can feel what up to 4 inches of that pretty firm base feels like. Order 2 pieces of "supersoft" 1 inch poly, too.. and you can experiment with all of these, before buying expensive latex. These are really inexpensive, and are pretty close in feel to latex. And regarding sagging springs: lay a straight edge across the springs from several angles.. top to bottom, side to side, etc. and measure any dips. When springs give out, they don't return to full height. If there is no unloaded dip, they are likely still OK. And as I posted in another post, because of the economy, lack of available credit, mattress wholesalers are selling name brand mattresses for really cheap, especially ones that were in showrooms, minor scuffs or dirt marks that don't hurt the mattress at all.. just save you a bundle. I have bought Sealy Reserve Q for $570 (set)... Simmons BR World class same, Stearns Estate for $790. Look under craigslist in your town and the wholesalers will advertise there. Go get you a new mattress for small dollars to serve as your base. Be sure to Reserve (Sealy) and World Class( Simmons) are the minimum quality to have encased perimeter coils which you will need to hold the mattress together for mattress surgery. Lower lines don't have it and will require some other mechanism to hold them up. The upgrade dollars for encasement get you there, and are really cheap. There was another issue along the way, but by jiminy, forgot what it was.
Good luck! shovel99
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