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I could use some advice on selecting a mattress topper. I’ve read many of the posts on this forum (great resource!) and here’s my very generalized ‘understanding’ of the difference between traditional memory foam and latex (Dunlop or Talalay): 1) You sleep IN a memory foam topper because memory foam is viscous and thus ‘flows’ whereas you sleep ON a Latex topper because it compresses underneath you rather than ‘flows’ away from body pressure. 2) Memory foam will sleep ‘hotter’ than Latex; though new types of memory foam such as Foamex’ Aerus will be ‘cooler’ than standard memory foam, and Latex International’s Celsion will maintain a consistent body temperature. 3) If the memory foam is too soft, it won’t provide much, if any, support (e.g., you bottom out). If a Latex foam is too hard/resilient, it might not alleviate pressure points. I’ve read that memory foam provides more support than Latex and I’ve read that Latex provides more support than memory foam. I would think that, in theory, memory foam could provide more support than Latex under ideal conditions (e.g., ideal mix of person’s weight, ILD of the foam and temperature). I’ve also read that memory foam is better at alleviating ‘pressure points’, but again, I don’t know if that is correct.
I ordered a Sealy Plush mattress form US Mattress in September and it is was way too soft (nothing like the comparable model I tried locally). I can’t return it, but I can exchange it, and I did, to a top of the line very firm Sealy: http://www.us-mattress.com/sealy-greenhurst-firm.html which I should get in a few weeks. Based upon the mattresses I've checked out locally, I know it is going to be so hard that it will not ‘fill up the space’ under my lumbar region when I sleep on my back (I side sleep too) and that I will want a bit more cushion/comfort. I’m 6’1”, 190 lbs and fit. However, I’ve also had 2 micro-discectomies at L5-S1 due to herniations and I definitely want lumbar support, and I’d like to have it be comfortable ;) I know that I don’t want to sink into my topper. I also know that I don’t want to sleep ‘hot’ as my body doesn’t seem to do a very good job of regulating temperature (e.g., when I go to bed I’ll be on top of the covers because I’m roasting, even though the room is under 65 degrees and my S.O. is buried under the covers because she’s freezing.) When I wake up in the morning, under the covers, I’ll be freezing. Here are the toppers I’ve considered: Aerus: I thought about getting an Aerus topper because they are not supposed to be as hot as traditional memory foam. However, I think I’d still have the problem of feeling that I’m ‘sinking in’ the topper. Energia: Supposedly, Energia foam feels like a cross between Latex and Memory Foam in that it combines the high resilience of Latex with the shape conforming properties of Memory Foam. It is made in 3, 4, and 5 lb densities, but only the 3lb/16IFD seems to be available. Best price is $239 for a 2” king. http://www.sleepwarehouse.com/energiamemoryfoam.aspx It is supposed to extremely durable, but it hasn’t been in use long enough for long-term ‘real use’ reviews. Celsion: LI’s temperature regulating Talalay Latex sounds perfect for me in regards to temperature sensitivity. However, I’m not sure if Latex will be able to fill in and support my lumbar region (or hips when I side-sleep). $250 for a King 1” http://www.sleeplikeabear.com/celsion_talalay_latex_toppers.html
NuForm: LI claims that you will experience the benefits of Talalay latex with a unique, slow recovery feel: Slowly cradles the body without the dense sinking, cave-like feel of visco-elastic foam Progressive recovery: returns to its original shape faster than visco to eliminate "cratering" 4x more breathable than leading polyurethane memory foam This sounds pretty darn good (no sinking feeling, somewhat breathable) if true. Habitat Furnishings trashed it, but I don’t know how unbiased they are. http://www.habitatfurnishings.com/latex_faqs.html. The bigger problem seems to be that no one makes a NuForm topper. Does anyone know if there are any NuForm toppers available? It does seem to be used as a comfort layer on some mattresses. Natural Latex: Because they are not viscous and don’t ‘flow’, they won’t really fill up or ‘conform’ to my shape, will they? Do they come close enough to conforming that they work fine? Do they do as good a job of alleviating pressure points as memory foam? If not, if you get the right resiliency do they do a decent job with pressure points? Any suggestions that you might have on the type of topper, thickness and density/ILD would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Dino PS...I wish I had found this site before I placed my original order…I probably would have gone with a ‘build your own’ foam mattress. However, the Sealy I just ordered as part of the exchange has a supposed comfort life of 12 years, so I figure I can get a topper to make it ‘just right’ ;) |
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Didn't look all the way through your post, but you are on the right track with research. Search shovel99 and find my experience.. ended up choosing mattress surgery on a SERTA Perfect Sleeper Auburn Firm. Comments today that relate to your situation on this other post today. Mattress surgery is really easy. Choosing your layers is the trick. The top 4 inches are critical. I did it in 1 inch layers and have 4 inches sitting on the top of the Serta springs.
http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/dont-know-what-consider-doingmattress-suggestions/16747-0-1.html
May try to check back. Good luck, shovel99 |
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You've been doing your research ... nice to see. A couple of comments ... Memory foam has little to no support qualities. This is why it always has a (preferably) HR foam under it to provide support. It is "honey like" and so does not push back and support. Soft latex and memory foam are almost identical in their ability to conform to your body and so are very close in terms of pressure relief. This is because latex is very "point elastic" which means it compresses in the area where weight is applied but not "around it". Memory foam in theory has a slight edge for pressure relief but in practice they are both able to relieve pressure below perception thresholds for most people. They do have a very different feel though. Latex has a higher "sag factor" and resilience than most other foams which is why it is so supportive even in the softer ILD's. It will compress with pressure from the "bony prominences" but will "push back" in the gaps. Energia is more like latex than anything else and has little in common with memory foam. It has high resilience (ability to make a ball bounce or pushback) and sag factor (difference between the pressure needed to partly compress it and more fully compress it) so in theory it would also be very supportive. It's point elasticity I don't know so it may not be as "conforming" (and pressure relieving) as latex. The jury is still out here as to this and it's durability (which in theory should be good). I never had a chance to try NuForm and it and others that are similar from other companies (slow recovery latex) seem interesting to me. The little bit of feedback I was able to get indicated that it seemed a little "dead" but I haven't had feedback from enough people to know what the general perception is. If you have the chance to try it in a top layer I would be very interested in your feedback. Habitat furnishings tends to "trash" anything they don't sell. And what they do sell is expensive. I would probably wait until you receive your mattress before you explore topper options. It has some "softness" in it and how you respond to it would make a difference. It may already have enough for you with the visco and X7 zoning. Phoenix PS: I know of a couple of mattress manufacturers that are using it in their constructions and they may sell you a topper. I'll take a look if you'd like. This message was modified Dec 18, 2010 by Phoenix
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Here are a few possible sources for NuForm. http://www.beloitmattress.com/index.html http://americanbedding.com/st/index.html http://jonathanstevens.com/products/product_line_list.html And these guys (they make SleepJoy) have a combination latex/memory but I think it's layered rather than just one material. http://www.sleepstudio.com/viscofresh-technology Phoenix This is a great patent application from Sealy with some interesting information ... including that the resiliency of NuForm is 26 so it would not be a very good supportive layer. First time I've seen this information about NuForm. In this "zoning" application anyway that was testing combinations of latex, memory foam, and NuForm for pressure relief, soft latex outperformed memory foam in several important aspects (including load bearing on the hips) and was almost identical overall. This next patent application has nothing to do with NuForm but it has some really really interesting information on Ohio Mattress Company's (Sealy) use of High density and high ILD (60 - 90) egg crate poly as a transition layer over an innerspring to either ease the "boardlike" feel of the innerspring or to "dominate" the innerspring itself so that this layer is what people would feel. This also gives a very good idea of the relative ILD of the innersprings they were working with. Patent applications as a source of information are really amazing. OK, this third one may be too much for anyone but me but it's also really interesting. This one is from Carpenter and is a 3 poly layer pressure relieving setup being tested for hospital use. It uses a softer poly in between two firmer layers BUT the softer poly has a higher sag factor and the outer foam is "checkered" for "point elasticity". This also shows the different pressure points for 3 different height weight combinations and the LIGHTEST weight (110 lbs typical female type) had greater pressure on the trochanter (hips) than the two heavier weights (170 and 185 typical male type). I just can't help myself. This one from Thomasville bedding shows an "invention" that uses layer thickness and proportion, zoning, and differing ILD and compression modulus (sag factor) materials to control the overall compression modulus of an entire mattress so it can be both very soft on top and very supportive at the same time. This message was modified Dec 18, 2010 by Phoenix
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Shovel99,
Thanks for the suggestions and tips on threads to read. Before I try mattress surgery, I think I'll try a topper or two.
Thanks again and best of luck getting your mattress to where you like it.
Dino |
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Phoenix,
Thanks for the replies and links (and also for posting your 'Pro's and Con's' thread which I read). I had called OK mattress yesterday and the person I spoke to said they do not have NuForm toppers, though from their website it looks like they took some of the exact wording from the NuForm info at LI). He then tried to sell me a latex topper. I'll call back on Monday and dig a little deeper. I had seen the Beloit site earlier today but I didn't get a chance to call. They definitely use NuForm in some of their mattresses, so I'll call them Monday. I'll ask about why they use it, and how, and try to get some info on density/ILD. If NuForm sounds great and it isn't too expensive, maybe I'll try to get them to sell me a topper. Whether Energia, NuForm, BASF Pluralux, etc., they all sound great, but they don't seem to be available in many products. One would think that if they were really great, they'd be more readily available and marketed like crazy. Maybe it's just the price issue and everyone want's 'green'. Personally, I don't have a problem with either 100% synthetics or blends, it all depends on whether the product does what it is supposed to do and the cost of it. I will definitely wait until I have slept on the new Sealy for a few weeks before ordering a topper, but I just couldn't wait to start gathering info!
HMMM... I might be able to change my comfort exchange order if I call first thing on Monday. However, I couldn't find a latex mattress on the US-Mattress site that wasn't going to be just as expensive, and most were more, than the Sealy Greenhurst Firm. I figured I'd probably end up getting a topper of my choosing whether I got an innerspring or latex mattress and don't want to spend a ton extra for a latex mattress and then spend even more for a new topper. They do have Eco-Sleep mattresses, and the Madison King is only $799 http://www.us-mattress.com/eco-rest-eco-l-8-variable.html However, Walmart sells another EcoSleep model from the same line (the Align) and it got terrible reviews (mainly about not expanding to the specified thickness) http://reviews.walmart.com/1336/13431007/ecosleep-10-cool-align-talalay-latex-mattress-reviews/reviews.html I hate to ask, but would you mind taking a loot at the memory foam and latex mattresses at US Mattress to see if there's anything under a $1,000 (King) that has a good base support layer? http://www.us-mattress.com/latex.html If there is, which do you think would be better:
Thanks so much for your generous help! Dino PS...There's a Sealy for about $50 more than the Greenhurst Firm called the Greenhurst LTD cushion Firm that has a layer of 1 1/2" memory foam instead of 1 1/2" of Marvelux. I went w/ the one w/out the memory foam b/c it is supposedly firmer and I want to avoid cavities/cratering. Greenhurst Firm: Quilt - Top of Mattress Comfort - Padding Layers LTD Cushion Firm: Quilt - Top of Mattress Comfort - Padding Layers |
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First, I will have to say you are going to sink into any topper. That is the point of using them. I assume you mean you don't want to sink in too much? From my experience, you will sink in the most in cooler/breathable memory foams, followed by lower density memory foams. I use a combination of some memory foam (lately just 1" 5lb. Sensus) and lower ILD talalay latex (19-24) over 32 latex directly over Sealy coils. I actually tried the Nuform once and did not really like it. It was too stiff and clay-like for my taste. Not sure if they have changed it since then. There might be a reason it has not really caught on. There is some debate as to whether Celsion is actually cooler. I tried it once and it seemed like it might be cooler for 1-2 hours, then it warmed up like regular latex. So, while I don't think there is much to lose (other than higher price), but not sure it adds much value. I would suggest you consider latex (probably talalay), since you don't seem to want to sink in a lot. It still provides pressure relief and support, and should not be as hot as some memory foams. Most people use toppers in the 19-28 range. However, some go even softer or firmer. It is such a matter of personal preference and a function of the underlying mattress, that it is hard to be real specific. Sleep like a bear has a lot of options (expensive though) and a 30 day return policy. Ideally you would be able to try something first, since most of us only find what is right by trial and error. You may want to try some latex mattresses to see if you like the general feel.
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Sandman,
Thanks....I've morphed into choosing between two mattresses for my exchange and I need to decide by tomorrow, so I started a new thread. |
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I'm going to reply to both threads here as it's a little difficult for me to go back and forth (get confused easily lol). Your comments about not wanting to "sink in" and sleeping hot pretty much rule out using memory foam as a top layer in a mattress. The Madison only has 2" latex so it needs a layer underneath that is not quite as firm to act as part of the comfort layer. It's sort of a compromise and given the feedback about the acella-flex not "coming back", I would tend to avoid it. Poly doesn't usually do well when it's compressed for a long period of time and these have almost certainly been shipped compressed from China where Classic brands has a factory. I took some time last night to "analyze" the construction of the greenhurst and it is surprisingly well constructed to suit your circumstances. I know that this comment may be surprising to many given my thoughts about "S" brands in general but my low opinion of them is generally more about the durability of the materials they use, what they charge for cheap polyfoam, and the general direction they are going. In some cases, their actual design (outside of materials used) is pretty good. In other cases their design is purely to cater to "what consumers think they want" and they are terrible (6 miles of poly over an innerspring) or to cater to a "store feel" without regard to what will happen after, but in this case the design is one of their better ones for someone like you. They are using 3 "technologies" all of which would help someone with your preferences and needs. First, they are using a form of "sandwiching" similar to one of the patent links I posted earlier with softer foam in between firmer foam. The softer foam has a higher sag factor which means it gets "firmer" with compression faster than the firmer foam outside. This is for someone that needs to sink in for alignment and support without sinking into the upper material as far (want a more "on top of the mattress" feeling). Next they are using "posture channels" which are a form of reverse zoning which allows your bony prominences to sink in further and puts the firmer posture channels under your lumbar and upper thigh (the depression below your butt when you lay on your back) for support. This is best for a back sleeper but has some side benefits as well. Finally they are using X7 zoning which reinforces the same idea as the posture channels but a little higher in the mattress. The bottom line ... and I hesitate to say this given that you have never laid on the mattress and theory is always trumped by experience ... it that this mattress may be very suitable to you in terms of what you have posted. I would still question the durability of some of the materials used and the price they charge you for these materials ... but in terms of design it may do surprisingly well for you. I would doubt that you would need more than a thin topper if you needed one at all. I would probably choose this one over the "memory foam version" although the memory foam version would allow you to sink in more (not "into" more on top which is why they put it deep). I don't think that is necessary given the rest of the construction and it likely wouldn't be as suitable for you. It's a tossup what would last longer between the marvelux or the memory foam (the only real difference) as they are not specific about either. Part of the problem with this kind of "analysis" is also that they are not specific and open enough about the foams they use so you have to "guess" from the descriptions what they could be (and so to some degree guess as to their durability, performance, and response). Personal experience would help confirm these "guesses". This is also why it is impossible to know how long this "good construction" will last as it looks like some of the foam is higher density HR foam which should last quite a while and some of it is lower density which may break down sooner. In any case, I don't see anything there in latex/poly that I would consider that was in your budget. If I was to get latex/poly, I would probably want a thicker latex layer so I could have a firmer support layer. More on some of your other comments later. This message was modified Dec 19, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix, Thanks again. Acella Flex is marketed as being more resilient and durable (though compared to what I'm not sure!) but I couldn't find many specific reviews from actual users. I take it that your comment that you have heard that it 'does not come back' means that over time it compresses (i.e., loses some of its original resiliency) and does not return to its original shape/depth? Would that also mean that it becomes harder over time because it stays compressed? Would that mean that it would tend to crater or form dips where the foam has compressed? Would it be correct to say that the Madison would need to be opened up to put a 2 - 3" layer of 28ILD latex between the top layer (24ILD Ecosleep Talalay Latex) and the 6" of 33ILD Acella Flex? Or would that not really matter b/c the Acella Flex base layer is still going to compress/sag? Thanks again! Dino |
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Phoenix, My guess is that Sealy, and many 'name' brands, want to use proprietary names for their foams (and not provides specs) so that:
Unfortunately, it does make it harder for us consumers. One thing that I've liked in my two-day research of Latex/MF is that SOME companies/resellers are pretty transparent about what is in the product they are selling. Thanks again! Dino |