I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
I know I could do a search. I know I've done so before. Right now I am just soooo not in the mood to go back and look for and read latex info.  I want to buy 1" or 2" of Dunlop latex (because I've slept on Talalay and never Dunlop; want to try the Dunlop). Can someone remind me who has it cheapest? I know I investigated this 4-5 months ago but I have completely forgotten. I took all memory foam out of my mattress last night and slept better than I have in weeks. Still woke up with a sore back, but much better. The only other time I tried it without the memory foam was when I used 2 x 1" of my soft latex and I think that was too much soft foam for me. Now I'm back to 1" of soft latex without the memory foam and it's better, but I do guess that my HR foam has crapped out, so time to replace it with latex. What ILD do you recommend for my bottom layer(s) over my springs? When my bed was working for me, I only had 1" of HR foam over the springs so I am guessing that should do it with the latex as well. I think the ILD I used was about 32, so with Dunlop I might want to go with 28? or would that be too soft? (as I recall, Dunlop is naturally firmer than Talalay so you use a lower ILD, no?) Also, I'm not sure - maybe I can find this in my receipt somewhere - the HR foam might have been as high as 36ILD. I had 3 ILD's one firm, one medium and one very firm, and I used the medium sometimes and the firm sometimes, but don't recall the exact ILD's. This message was modified Jan 10, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Eagle, I think what people are thinking of as "bouncy" is what Latexco calls resilience or elasticity. They measure that by dropping a steel ball on the foam to see how much it rebounds. Latex has the highest resiliency of the major foams. Memory foam has zero. I assume an innerspring has a low resilience as well, if you measured it the same way (more than memory foam though). So, people who have never experrienced latex before will tend to notice the extra resiliency. I know that I did. At first it might be a bit disconcerting, since tney are not use to it. http://www.latexco.com/tested-quality/ |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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okie dokie...good thing i had a day off from work today lol. I will try to my best to answer some of these new questions. cityskies: I feel it is a limited number of people you will find that think dunlop latex is deader feeling. It is also hard to compare without all the usual variables. I am gonna say trying my very best to compare apples to apples most customers find the mattresses in our showroom that use dunlop all the way through to be bouncier than ones that use some talalay on top of a dunlop core. The same is true in my house, I room with my brother who I also work with. My latex mattress is all naturally sourced rubber, 2" soft talalay on top of a 6" firm dunlop core, my brother also has an all natural latex mattress although the rubber comes from a private rubber plantation and it not mass produced on the same level that most latex is, it is 6" 'soft' dunlop on top of 2" very firm and dense dunlop bottom. His mattress is significantly more bouyant and springy than mine. eagle2: yeah it looks like they just use dunlop process. I could see that they may not have major consistency issues with an 80/20 blend however the closer they come to 50/50 the more glaring the inconsistencies will become. There has been also big strides in terms of improving the consistency of dunlop processed latex so its not that it would be always a bad thing to blend it. I can tell that you have definitely done a lot of research yourself, and you make a very good point about the bounciness, a lot of times it really depends on what you were previously used to. Everyone also has very different needs. I actually made the change to latex after having a really soft pocketcoil that was quite worn in after 8 years, I got the absolute softest latex mattress I could get (without polyurethane foam) and it was actually a LOT firmer than what I was used to. I slept great on it from day one, never woke up with back pain although I did on the old mattress quite regularly because even though I am only 24 I am also a competitive powerlifter and would regularly wake up very stiff on my old mattress. This being said I had a very hard time just falling asleep on my latex mattress when it was new I think simply because it felt very foreign to me. So you are also right on the mark that sometimes people will really need some time to truly test out their mattress once any change has been made to it. jimsocal: I definitely wouldn't read into one problem they had as an idea that Sleepez sells subpar product. The thing is they are not the manufacturer, they are simply re-selling raw cores from any one of their suppliers which is a fairly long list, Latexco, Latex international, Radium (never heard of them before), and Latex Green. Personally after reading their information page on latex which is incredibly favoured on the talalay process (also blended at that) I don't really know why they would even carry Latexco since they would much rather have people use latex international rubber based on their info. Especially when they are implying synthetic latex cells are 'stronger', based on all the info out there and even on the page eagle2 recently linked here shows that this is actually not the case. Anyway I personally haven't seen that type of body indentation in any quality of latex, it is normal for them to lose some loft, like maybe a half inch at the most in a 6" core. The important thing is they made it right for the customer. Probably impossible to tell what happened, maybe it was a bad batch of latex, this doesn't happen under normal circumstances. There was one interesting thing on their info page, saying that the moulds to make talalay latex are 10 times the cost as a dunlop mould....realistically I don't see how this can be, in any case the moulds are basically just an aluminum pincussion mould with the ability to make a vacuum for lower density latex whether it be talalay or dunlop....furthermore, as a business owner the cost of a machine should have little to do with the cost of the end product it makes. When you consider the idea that these companies are blowing latex out the doors of these facilities like hot cakes and selling them for good margin to mattress manufacturers, they would make enough latex in a one day shift to pay off the moulds. Talalay is slightly more money because they have to flash freeze the product, this does not substantially increase the cost of the mould, it increased the cost of the factory by adding in a powerful refrigeration system that takes a fair bit of juice to run. But in the end I would venture to say the extra electricity used to cool the latex would probably only add 5 dollars to cost of each sheet at the very most. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| Great info Budgy...as far as the few comments about bouncy being more noticeable for someone coming from a pocketcoil mattress to latex...I would just like to add, that I spent years sleeping on hard high density foam mattresses before the coils and I did recently try a LI blended Talalay (6" 36 ILD) with 1" soft (24?) layer on each side (which was close to perfect but needed a little more "cushion" for my taste as well as another one a year ago which I believe was a Natura (it was Canadian, I know for sure :) ) but my husband and I did not feel either of them had the spring of the natural Talalay I am trying now at all. So, in my case, anyway, I don't think I am coming to this bouncy conclusion from solely the change in bed types. Thanks. |
good guesses
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budgy wrote: There was one interesting thing on their info page, saying that the moulds to make talalay latex are 10 times the cost as a dunlop mould....realistically I don't see how this can be, in any case the moulds are basically just an aluminum pincussion mould with the ability to make a vacuum for lower density latex whether it be talalay or dunlop....furthermore, as a business owner the cost of a machine should have little to do with the cost of the end product it makes. When you consider the idea that these companies are blowing latex out the doors of these facilities like hot cakes and selling them for good margin to mattress manufacturers, they would make enough latex in a one day shift to pay off the moulds. Talalay is slightly more money because they have to flash freeze the product, this does not substantially increase the cost of the mould, it increased the cost of the factory by adding in a powerful refrigeration system that takes a fair bit of juice to run. But in the end I would venture to say the extra electricity used to cool the latex would probably only add 5 dollars to cost of each sheet at the very most. l.o.l. wow. The suppliers' impressive profit margins are likely a safe guess anyway. re: natural vs. synth/blend, even if it's not as bouncy right out of the gate, I'll be sure to look for natural from here on out for its durability. & that makes sense, if what the old sears' latex mattresses that lasted so long were, natural dunlop? Unfortunately before budgy had informed us otherwise (thanks again), i had read a report by SOMEONE here about his natural latex breaking in & getting softer faster by comparison. but have since discovered this guy kind of throws out alot of definitive statements, about alot of stuff, then later changes his mind w/o editing his old posts to the contrary! just not many 1st hand comparisons out there from neutral parties. But some of the posters above with their 3" toppers compressing by half, & getting divots in the middle of cores vs. at the edges etc.- well it's only a couple of weeks in & I am already certain "my spot" is less bouncy than the corners are. If it doesn't get too much worse in the meantime, I'm going to try another topper on it, in hopes the thinner top layer will absorb some, enough of my abuse to protect the core underneath a little. Pointless strategy in your opinion, budgy? Because i realize the core will still be compressing. it's just ironic that alone its feel is/was perfect for me (why the topper isn't even to change its comfort leve/ild per se). if it could only maintain that initial springy bouncy feel beyond a MONTH?! come on!
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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thinner sheets of latex will typically break in/down a little bit faster than a thicker core, much in the same way that shredded rubber pillows although very comfortable do not stay resilient for as long as a solid core pillow. Realistically I don't know if adding another piece on top will really prevent the core from breaking down as quickly, although it will certainly provide a buffer from the inconsistencies in the other piece (assuming the new piece is perfectly consistent). Just keep in mind that every single layer in your whole mattress has to absorb your full weight, when we lay on top of a mattress our weight is added to the total of the bed and every layer will absorb this mass in some function or another all the way down to the floor the bed is on. At best you can hope an additional layer to do is simply redistribute that weight over a slightly larger area. Hey TJ12, do you have any additional layers over your topper other than basically the sheets? I would imagine the closer you are to the rubber the more of that bounce someone will feel, especially a teeny person like yourself. If it was indeed a natural rubber bed from Natura they use a pretty copious amount of wool in the quilting layers in those beds, which can definitely hide that bounciness a little better for some people. I know myself I don't find them to be particularly bouncy. edit: forgot to mention, just on the note of the cost of processing. most talalay the freezing process is done using compressed CO2 which I would assume is even cheaper than refrigeration (only a couple places use that technique). This message was modified Jan 13, 2010 by budgy
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| It has the FloBeds 3" convoluted (egg crate) natural Talalay topper as one of the layers (3 cores plus the convoluted) and I was wondering about it being the culprit myself! I'm wondering if I went much firmer on the cores, then maybe it wouldn't feel as springy because I do like a cushy feel...just don't want to be too springy. It definitely got better when I put the XF core on the bottom (my husband, in a hurry, had put it on top as it was a temporary core until our VZone came in) which surprised me because I thought it would be less springy with the XF near the top. ...so now wondering if I need to go firmer on the other cores. (I know the firmnesses but haven't written down the ILD's so I need to check that.) It also has an organic wool and cotton cover over the cores as well as a 100% cotton mattress pad cover. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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eagle2 wrote: [edit for brevity and to the point:] Just to clarify: There has been some discussion about latex feeling "bouncy" and/or "jiggly". These are the types of subjective terms that can be very misleading to people seeking answers who have no experience with latex mattresses and are quite confused. I personally have never felt that my mattress was either bouncy or jiggly. I think people using these terms are expressing a feeling that they have acquired because all of their experiences have been with innerspring mattresses. The very fact that an innerspring, by its very nature, has steel springs at its core give it an entirely different and more substantial feel. Since I came from 20 years of waterbeds, latex mattresses had a very solid substantive feel to them. In fact, at first, they felt too hard when I first laid on them. This led me to try out latex that was too soft and caused me pain I have said that latex felt too "bouncy" to me. I have heard others say this as well and my description - like their's in some cases - is based on laying on a pure foam bed (from flobeds in my case), not an inner spring mattress. A better description of my feeling is that it felt like it was "pushing back too much". This has also been stated by others, as well. Again, with the inner spring mattress and only a thin layer of latex, I have not felt this as much and have been able to tolerate - maybe even like - the latex layer. How it will be with more latex in my inner spring mattress, as I plan to replace my HR foam with latex, who knows? I'll have to try it, as you say, trying it is the only way to know how it feels for me. Actually I have liked my experience with latex as included with my inner spring mattress, more than I did with a pure latex mattress. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Okay, so I'm narrowing down my decision of who to buy from and what to buy. I definitely plan to buy 1" of around 32 ILD natural latex, but not decided yet whether to go with Dunlop or Talalay, or both. I called sleeplikeabear and found out that their latex is blended and they can't / won't tell me exactly what the blend is but the woman told me it is "about 30-40% natural" which is close enough for me to know I don't want it based on Budgy's recent comments that natural may last longer, etc. Also, I they charge tax to California so there's no savings there. Their shipping is free but their price is higher than sleepez so it is not really much cheaper when you factor in the tax. So I'm trying to call SleepEZ to place my order. I do have reservations about them as a company and about their latex based on the post I included above about the complaint. Yes they took care of it, but it took them a while and for awhile they were saying there was "nothing they could do" according to the customer's reviews. Also, they do not answer their phone most of the time based on my now having called them about 4 various times on different days. They do say they'll get back to you, but... I asked the other day about giving me a price break on the shipping since I felt $49 shipping is too much to charge on a 1" topper. The guy said he'd get back to me and never did. I assume that means they'll not give me a break on the shipping so that makes me inclined to order 2 instead of one to make it more worthwhile. I hate to "reward" them for charging so much for shipping, though. I also hate to buy from a company that does not regularly answer their phone. However, the bottom line is that they seem to have what I want at a fair price, all considered, so I'll take a chance on them. I'm hoping they don't charge tax since they're in AZ and I'm in CA. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Yes, I think I calculated on an earlier post that sleepez would be slightly cheaper (with tax included), even with their high shipping charge. I think they charge alot for the shipping to cover handling and some profit as well, instead of builiding it into the price. I guess that will tend to discourage smaller orders like yours that perhaps they are not too excited about. I think you are right to go for the denser 100% natural for a bit more support. It would be great if you could try both the dunlop and talalay to give some feedback to the rest of us (nothing like free information...). I think they have a 30 day return policy on the toppers? It's too bad that their service doesn't sound so great. Keep us posted... |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
Don't want to put a damper on things...but if you click on the BBB link on their website...it says the following:This business's BBBOnLine participation has lapsed for one of the following reasons:For a current business Reliability Report, visit www.bbb.org. For other questions or concerns, please contact BBBOnLine at infringement@council.bbb.org We were ready to buy quickly yet, they never called us back either, which is what convinced us to go with FloBeds....their rating was very high and up to date. No regrets there. Haven't seen customer service like that in years, if ever! Just something to keep in mind. |