Mattress Forum

Given that you said earlier that the Aerus was helping with your hip and shoulder pain issues, the first thing I would try is the 1" of Celsion over the Aerus before anything else. The reason for this is that adding 1" of celsion latex over the memory foam would still have enough pressure relief that you should still be fine here. It will also stop the sinking in to a degree (you have a few inches of poly under the memory foam which will also lead to sinking in more than just the memory foam itself) without sacrificing pressure relief so it may also give you better alignment to help with the neck issues and arm tingling that were the original "problem" (along with perhaps a better pillow). By sinking in less you may both improve your alignment and lessen the pressure from your head which would be lower relative to the middle of your body. In other words you need to bring your hips up without using something so firm that your pressure issues return.

I would take this in two steps. First make sure that you are fine with the pressure relief (with the 1" Celsion over the Aerus). If this is OK, then I still think that a pillow with more of a combination of softness and resilience (latex and definitely not memory foam or the material you now have which doesn't spring back) in combination with this could end up being a pretty good solution. The original neck pain you talked about would be alignment connected and could be helped with both your mattress layering (bringing up your hips) and a better pillow. The numbness of your arm would seem to me to be very connected to your pillow. A material which only compresses and doesn't provide any pressure relief on the "bottom" of the pillow could very well be causing your numbness since the pressure from your head is "passing through" your pillow onto your arm. Memory foam would end up "melting" on both sides from your head and your arm and would probably be similar. It seems to me that if you "always" sleep on your arm, a  more resilient pillow that is a little thinner than a typical side sleeping pillow may work fairly well. I wouldn't go so thin though that you had a problem with pressure going through when you were sleeping on your arm or misalignment when you weren't sleeping on your arm.

Failing this of course you could always try 2" (1" folded as was mentioned) of Celsion without the Aerus but then you would be giving up a "known" solution to your hip and shoulder pain. Also be aware that 1" folded over half your bed may be different than 2" over your whole bed depending on how much you sleep near the edge of the narrower layer. The "open end" will be less supportive and the folded end will be more so. If part of your body "strays" over the edges or sleeps closer to the edges, it could cause you to experience an issue that you unkowingly attribute to the 2" of Celsion rather than the folding so if you do this try to sleep in the middle of the folded layer.

In terms of latex itself, the difference between 21 and 24 is very small and would not make any significant difference. 28 may be enough difference but I have my doubts if 1" of 28 would solve all your "interrelated" issues. It's possible of course and may well be worth a try but I really have my doubts that anything less than 2" of latex would really help in any ILD that would also help you with your pressure issues.

Phoenix

I'm thinking of using 2" of latex, but not sure if i should use the 21 ILD on top of perhaps 1" of 27-28, or if I need to return the 21 ILD and get 2 inches of something else?

I am not sure how you got the Aerus in the box it was delivered in! I ended up putting it in a larger box.

I am not sure firmer will necessarily solve your problems.   I guess we need to figure out why it is hurting?  Does it seem to soft or too firm?  If the mattress below is really firm, then you are probably bottoming out on it.  If that is the case, you may just need more than 2".     If you just have 2" of something firmer, then you still might not sink in enough to be comfortable.  It is hard for me to say how soft  the foam on top of the mattress is.

Did you get less pain with the 2.5" Aerus than the 2" 21?  If so, then it is hard to argue you should go totally firmer.  That was thicker as well.

It could be that 1" of 28 plus 1-2" of something softer like the 21 will be a good fit.  I would be inclined to keep the 21 and maybe add 1" of something else as the next step.  Then you can try folding the various pieces again to figure out the move after that.  Or as Diane says, you might even need to go softer.

Normally, I would not say that 21 is too soft for a side sleeper.  As Phoenix indicated, the foam in underlying mattress might be the problem as well. 

2.5" of the Aerus over the poly over the springs seemed to relieve your hip/shoulder pain. That tells me that you weren't "bottoming out" through these layers and that you had good pressure distribution without sinking through to a harder layer. 2" of 21 ILD latex over the same underlying layers was still causing you hip/shoulder pain, that tells me that either it was too thin and you were going through to a firmer layer or that the latex itself was too firm for you and was in itself causing the pressure issues. Latex at 21 ILD is still firmer than memory foam which usually doesn't go above 15 and most are even softer (4lb Aerus is 12 and I imagine 5LB is around 13 or so) although a direct comparison between memory foam and latex is difficult since the memory foam changes.

I'm a little hesitant to make a real suggestion here since your own instincts about which it is (ILD too high or going through to a firmer layer) are probably more accurate but I would think that you would sink in further to a 2.5" Aerus layer than you would a 2" layer of 21 ILD latex so it seems that the problem may not be the underlying layer. Part of the difficulty as well is that in very general terms 2" is right on the borderline of what is generally considered to be a "sufficient" thickness to make a real difference. For example I "went through" 3 one inch layers of 19 ild latex to a firmer layer underneath when I was testing out the Sawgrass Talalay mattress and would also go through 2" of soft Talalay to firmer underlying layers when I was testing out other mattresses but I don't go through a single 3 inch layer of similar ILD. The fact that you have softer poly underneath and that you are not large would increase your odds that 2" would be enough though.

I would try to get a sense during the night to see if you can determine why you are having the pressure issue with the latex (and it may just be too that one night is not really enough to tell). Do you get the sense that it is the latex itself or do you get a sense that it is coming from "something" under the latex. My gut feeling is that I would not increase the ILD of the latex in your next layer (perhaps even softer) but your own experience and careful perception will probably tell you more than any ideas I may have.

Phoenix

Okay, I can see the reasons behind going both firmer and softer.  The 2.5" Aerus seemed like less hip and shoulder pain, but more back pain (probably from sinking in too much).  Conversely, the 2" of 21 ILD resulted in only hip and shoulder pain, with no back pain.  Also, the surface below is a "Cushion Firm" from Original Mattress Factory, and it's pretty firm.  I think the coils are 12 3/4 guage, so there's not much give there.  I see the logic behind going up to 3 inches, but would really like to avoid having $600 - 700 invested in latex if at all possible.  Since MF is out of the question, I'm thinking of using up to 2" of latex, and perhaps a different topper like wool, or cheaper foam. 

I think I will keep the 1" of 21 ILD, as you guys have pointed out that it should be useful in some form or fashion.  As always, I'm open for any and all advice.

Thanks Phoenix, I think I follow you here.  My gut feeling is that I was sinking through the 2" or 21 ILD, and onto the firm mattress, and that's what caused the shoulder and hip pain.  Since I'm using an E. King, I managed to fold the 1" of 21 ILD into 3" by trifolding it.  I tried this configuration (3" of 21 ILD) out last night and I was pleasantly suprised at how well I slept and how comfortable it was.  I did wake up with a small amount of lower back/muscle soreness, however, it went away after getting up.  I also slept a few hours longer last night because I couldn't sleep at all the night before, but I didn't have any shoulder or hip pain.

I will try this out for a couple more nights to make sure, but I think I'm going to need 2 - 3 inches of latex in total - would you agree?

I guess the question I have now is, could the back pain be linked to the latex being slightly too soft?  I feel like the hip and shoulder pain issue has been resolved by using 3" of latex, but now I'm wondering If I need to use a 1" base layer of firmer (24 - 28 ILD) below  2" of 19 - 21 ILD to aleviate the back pain?

Sounds like you are making some progress.  I think you do need 3".  If you are having back pain with the 3" of 21, but not shoulder/hip problems, then you probably should have at least 1" firmer.  I don't think 24 is enough of a difference, so I would suggest adding 1" of 28.   Then you could try folding that piece for a while and/or the 21 piece for a while to see which works better as the 3rd inch.  That means you would have to end up with 3 1" pieces.  I think that is okay, but it might bother some. 

By the way, I think if you back to SLAB and tell them that 1" was not enough, and you another inch of the same thing, I think they will give you a price break on the second 1"  At least that is what they told me once.

 

So lets take a look at where we are.

First regarding pressure relief without regard to alignment.

2.5" of Aerus memory foam over probably 2" of soft poly foam (firm mattresses usually have at least this much softer poly for cushioning over the spring) = Good pressure relief.

2" of 21 ILD latex over 2" soft poly foam = Sore hips and shoulders

3" of 21 ILD latex over 2" soft poly foam = Good pressure relief

This and your original issues is indicating to me that the poly is probably pretty soft as it is not making a real difference with the 2" of latex. Soft poly over firm springs would feel "harder" than firmer poly over firm springs (in terms of pressure issues) since you would go through it more easily and feel the effect of the firmer springs underneath more. Firmer poly would lessen the pressure on the springs since you wouldn't go through it as easily.

I wanted to confirm that it was indeed soft poly because that would make a real difference in any solutions so I called OMF and asked. I was referred from the store to a guy at the factory location who would know so this is probably pretty accurate. Here is what is over your springs (from lower to higher)

First right above is a layer of cotton batting.

Then there are 2 .25" layers of firmer poly 32 ILD for a total of 1/2"

Then there is a layer of 1.5" of 15 ILD convoluted (which makes it softer than non convoluted). This is the equivalent of about .75" - 1" or so of even softer non convoluted

Then in the quilting there is another 1.5" of 15 ILD non convoluted.

So basically you have the equivalent of about 3" of poly over cotton (firm) over springs (firm) and only 1/2" of this poly could be called "better than soft".

This is pretty typical of a "luxury firm" mattress

With this information ... will give it a bit more thought but I am suspecting that the firmness that is causing your pressure issues from the 2" of latex is not from the springs as I highly doubt that you are "going through" 2" of Celsion and 3" of poly. or even 2" of Celsion and the equivalent of 2.5" of soft poly onto the firmer poly/cotton/springs.

Phoenix

This is because if you add enough foam on the top to solve your pressure issues (as in the thicker layers of Aerus or Celsion), then the soft poly becomes your support layers and will allow too much "sinking in" (that the springs wouldn't) before you bottom out and cause alignment issues.

What you need to do is either

1. Add the absolute minimum amount of toppers that you can get away with to solve the pressure issues using a combination of the foam that is already in your mattress and a thinner topper

OR

2. Add thicker layers of toppers that would solve your pressure issues without needing the poly underneath but that are also firm enough so that when the poly underneath the toppers lets you sink in more that this puts you into alignment (instead of allowing you to go "past" the point of alignment). The difficulty here of course is that this would require firmer layers of toppers which could once again lead to pressure issues. It would also to a great degree "remove" the springs from the equation.

This is why I suspected that it was the latex ILD that was causing the problem.

One possibility here would be to use a thinner layer (1") of higher ILD latex (say 28-30) which even though it was firmer would allow you to go through it to the poly underneath and so would not feel as firm as a thicker layer of the same ILD. This would result in a more "rounded" pressure point on the poly and could solve your pressure issues without "bottoming out" onto the firmer layers underneath and still allow the springs to support you. This would also help "budget wise" of course (smiling).

I know that some of this seems somewhat counterintuitive until you get the "why" behind it.

Of course "mattress surgery" which would remove the poly completely and re-build on the springs would be the ideal but this is much more complicated and it's a lot easier to try a "fix" without going there.

Still thinking but this is where I'm going.

Phoenix