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I have searched the forums without much luck, so I am posting my question here. About a year ago we purchased a split king from SleepEZ. My side has a Talalay soft layer and Dunlop medium and firm layers. When I sleep on the mattress my mid to upper back gets so painful that it wakes me in the night and it tends to be painful the entire next day. I have tried all possible combinations and permutations of the layers with little relief. (I have the same problem on my wifes side of the bed) I have tried thick pillows, soft pillows, two pillows etc. I have also tried different toppers I do tend to end up on my side, occasionally on my stomach... I sleep fine on the guest room traditional mattress or in a recliner. We are going to have to get rid of the bed if we cannot come up with a solution... Any thoughts? Thanks jms This message was modified Feb 26, 2010 by jms969
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Lynn2006 wrote: A 3" thick latex core that is soft or medium would hurt my back. I think your bed needs to be much firmer with a very thin latex topper over it. Mike: I agree with Lynn! I would sure get rid of that top layer of soft, if you have a split layered mattress, since your wife likes her configuration. I believe the soft layer in a Talalay is just way too soft for the average sleeper. I know when I tried it I had a soft top layer and a medium middle layer and extra firm bottom layer, as best I can recall. I developed a pain right between my shoulder blades. I had to get rid of the soft layer. Even a medium layer on top of a firm layer on top of a extra firm layer was too soft over time. I would talk to Sean at SleepEZ and see about exchanging a couple of layers. I know you said it's been around a year, but Sean seems to be a reasonable type and I'm sure does not want to have negative reports about their beds posted on this forum. The small cost to them to allow you to exchange, at this late date, can do more to help sell mattresses for them than the dollers they're going to lose in any cost. It's certainly worth a try and I believe you will find that using a medium layer on top and possibly even a firm layer over your Dunlop might solve your problem. If not, possibly you need to exchange the Dunlop for all Talalay. I like all natural. I tried a blended piece of Talalay and while it is a decent latex I just prefer the feel of natural latex. Possibly it's all between my ears, but in the end that's where all the thinking takes place and determines how we actually perceive things. In any event you have too much money wrapped up to just throw it away, it's worth a try. Good luck! This message was modified Feb 27, 2010 by eagle2
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Thanks for the feedback guys. Just to clarify Dunlop and Talalay are both natural, just traditional vs modern manufacturing process. I may order another medium or firm layer (or maybe an extra firm) and try those. i am willing to pay for the layer since it has been a year or so... So the options would be medium medium firm or medium firm firm or medium firm xfirm PS. I am 5'11" 200lbs, I have tried sleeping with a spacer between my knees, but apparently as soon as I am asleep I toss it on the floor... HAHAHAHAHAHA |
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jms969 wrote: Thanks for the feedback guys. Just to clarify Dunlop and Talalay are both natural, just traditional vs modern manufacturing process. I may order another medium or firm layer (or maybe an extra firm) and try those. i am willing to pay for the layer since it has been a year or so... So the options would be medium medium firm or medium firm firm or medium firm xfirm PS. I am 5'11" 200lbs, I have tried sleeping with a spacer between my knees, but apparently as soon as I am asleep I toss it on the floor... HAHAHAHAHAHA Mike I do not understand you comment regarding natural Vs. blended. You say: "Just to clarify Dunlop and Talalay are both natural, just traditional vs modern manufacturing process." Do you mean Talalay process versus Dunlop process hundred percent natural botanically grown latex? They are two different processes but they can both be used to manufacture blended latex. However, it's not that important! I have to guess, since I have only slept on all natural Talalay latex. But given your height and weight and the fact that Dunlop is a more dense manufacturing process of latex, and your middle and bottom layers are Dunlop,I would suggest that you try a medium or a firm piece of Talalay on top of your Dunlop process latex. That soft Talalay top piece could very well be what is causing your problems. I am currently sleeping on a 100% natural botanically grown Talalay processed FloBeds mattress configured thusly, one side of my California King is configured top piece firm, middle piece extra firm, bottom piece extra firm. The other side is configured top piece firm, middle piece firm, bottom piece extra firm. (overlaying all FloBeds mattresses is a 2 inch piece of convoluted soft Talalay latex, this never changes, it's actually equal to about a 1 inch piece of soft Talalay) When I started this process of configuring my mattress I was 6 foot two and weighed 210 pounds. Due to a diet I am currently on, thankfully, I currently weigh 200 lb. Going to see if I can get back down to 190 pounds. The first 10 pounds wasn't too bad but I've already hit the wall and it's going to be tough going from here. It will be interesting to see, if I'm actually able to reach my goal in weight-loss, how the bed will feel with 20 pounds of fat removed from this old frame. But I am positive, in my own mind, that I will never want to sleep on soft Talalay again, no matter what I weigh. This message was modified Feb 27, 2010 by eagle2
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I agree go firmer. I also agree about losing weight, can I lose this weight still eating cheesecake, cookies, chips, and beer?    My goal is to lose weight too, I won't say how much or when, but it is my goal. I just removed my spongey 1 1/2" 24ILD and my 20ILD 1 " top layer. Now I have 3" of probably medium soft latex. Still I know I can not sleep on my side, but at least I can sleep on my back and not be on a sponge. My latex is over springs. I would really firm your mattress up more, I am a slower learner and am now doing this.  This message was modified Feb 27, 2010 by Leo3
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We have made the decision to get rid of this mattress, it is just not going to work for us. We are in south central wisconsin and would like to find a new home for it.
Details are below: Sleep EZ 10000 Split King Firm, Medium, & Soft on each side Sleep Ez platform
Ping me back if you have interest in the mattress and platform. Cost $2,185 new will sell for $500... This message was modified Oct 10, 2010 by jms969
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It's probably too late for this but I don't think anyone has asked you about the bed (or beds) where you don't have any problems. Can you describe it (firm, soft, pillowtop, type of springs, etc) or even better give the name of it and then maybe someone will know how it's made and be able to give some suggestions based on that. How about the hotel beds that don't have any problems for you. Are they typically softer, firmer, and do you have any sense of what is different about them from the layering that is causing you problems? Is the bed that doesn't give you any problems comfortable to you or is it just that you don't have a sore back when you sleep on it? After so long it may just be easier to dump it but it seemed to me that finding out about the beds that have no problems for you and comparing them to what you have may give some insight into why this is happening. It might also help to know what your general weight distribution was. Are you an inverted triangle (weight in upper body), a regular triangle (weight in lower body), a rectangle (weight evenly proportioned), or something else? If nothing else it would be educational if it could be "fixed" and we all might learn something if you were willing to be a "guinea pig" Phoenix This message was modified Oct 10, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: It's probably too late for this but I don't think anyone has asked you about the bed (or beds) where you don't have any problems. Can you describe it (firm, soft, pillowtop etc) or even better give the name of it and then maybe someone will know how it's made and be able to give some suggestions based on that. How about the hotel beds that don't have any problems for you. Are they typically softer, firmer, and do you have any sense of what is different about them from the layering that is causing you problems? Is the bed that doesn't give you any problems comfortable to you or is it just that you don't have a sore back when you sleep on it? After so long it may just be easier to dump it but it seemed to me that finding out about the beds that have no problems for you and comparing them to what you have may give some insight into why this is happening. Phoenix The interesting part is no problems with firm beds, soft beds, urethane foam beds, etc. Not sure what is going on with the latex but it hurts like crazy.
So the mattress and platform are now on craigslist for sale. If it does not sell then it is off to the dump, kind of crazy to throw away a $2200 mattress but neither Goodwill nor St. Vincent DePaul wants it... :(
To further answer your questions Hilton's beds are the most comfortable I am rested with no pain, I would characterize the mattress as medium to firm with a pillowtop. This message was modified Oct 10, 2010 by jms969
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Here's the bed that hilton sells http://www.hiltontohome.com/productGroup.aspx?category1=Bedding&category1Name=Bedding&categoryLevel=0&itemID=HIL-124 It's posturized which is the spring equivalent of latex zoning with a firmer section under your hips. This would raise your hips relative to your shoulders/upper back. If your lower body sinks in too much and your upper body not enough, you end up with a kind of "hunched" position which can cause upper back issues. This would also depend to a degree on your weight distribution (added a question in my previous post about triangles, rectangles etc). A higher pillow would worsen this. My guess is that regardless of the top layer, firm, plush or pillowtop as in the hilton, you need more underlying firmness in your lower body relative to your upper body or more softness in your upper body relative to your lower body. Somehow the layers you have are not allowing your upper body to sink in enough or your lower body too much. You said you tended to end up on your side (perhaps the body is trying to get the shoulders to sink in more by side sleeping where the shoulder pressure point is more "pointed" than the back) and occasionaly your stomach (trying to compensate for a "hunch" with "hyperextension" the other way. Do you tend to start on your back or prefer back sleeping or do you end up on your side or stomach on other beds just as much? Have you tried sleeping on the firm dunlop layer on top of the medium dunlop layer without the Talalay at all? It may be the culprit in that even soft latex could tend to offer more support to your upper back than a typical super soft plush layer or pillowtop which in turn is keeping your upper body too high when you are on your back (when you are on your back the weight of your upper body is distributed over a wider area and even the softer top layer in Talalay would hold your upper body up more relative to your lower body which would have a more concentrated weight and sink in more deeply). Typical plush layers in other non latex beds would not be as supportive and so you would not have this problem if this was the case. While it might not be too comfortable, it would be interesting to see if this levelled you out enough to not cause the back problem (even if it did cause a pressure problem). You could also start with the medium over the firm if you wanted to start with something a little softer for the sake of getting some sleep. Either would be a good place to begin (without the Talalay) and if either way your back pain didn't happen, then it would just be a matter of finding a top layer that kept you "level" and was comfortable enough for daily sleeping. This could be softer (to more closely mimic a typical plush layer so your upper back would sink more deeply) or firmer (so your lower body would not sink in as deeply). It would also tell you if zoning in the lower layers might help you. Dunlop also has a slightly firmer side and a less firm side so you could try them with the firmer sides up as well. These kind of issues are why the guy at at trulyadjustable makes his beds with "double zoning" by cutting the upper half of a layer at an "appropriate place" depending on torso measurement and replacing it with something softer to let the shoulders sink in more. He may be on to something with this. At least sleeping without the Talalay at all would be a place to start with what you have. Again, you may not want to even go here but I really do think it would be interesting. Phoenix This message was modified Oct 10, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: Here's the bed that hilton sells http://www.hiltontohome.com/productGroup.aspx?category1=Bedding&category1Name=Bedding&categoryLevel=0&itemID=HIL-124 It's posturized which is the spring equivalent of latex zoning with a firmer section under your hips. This would raise your hips relative to your shoulders/upper back. If your lower body sinks in too much and your upper body not enough, you end up with a kind of "hunched" position which can cause upper back issues. This would also depend to a degree on your weight distribution (added a question in my previous post about triangles, rectangles etc). A higher pillow would worsen this. My guess is that regardless of the top layer, firm, plush or pillowtop as in the hilton, you need more underlying firmness in your lower body relative to your upper body or more softness in your upper body relative to your lower body. Somehow the layers you have are not allowing your upper body to sink in enough or your lower body too much. You said you tended to end up on your side (perhaps the body is trying to get the shoulders to sink in more by side sleeping where the shoulder pressure point is more "pointed" than the back) and occasionaly your stomach (trying to compensate for a "hunch" with "hyperextension" the other way. Do you tend to start on your back or prefer back sleeping or do you end up on your side or stomach on other beds just as much? Have you tried sleeping on the firm dunlop layer on top of the medium dunlop layer without the Talalay at all? It may be the culprit in that even soft latex could tend to offer more support to your upper back than a typical super soft plush layer or pillowtop which in turn is keeping your upper body too high when you are on your back (when you are on your back the weight of your upper body is distributed over a wider area and even the softer top layer in Talalay would hold your upper body up more relative to your lower body which would have a more concentrated weight and sink in more deeply). Typical plush layers in other non latex beds would not be as supportive and so you would not have this problem if this was the case. While it might not be too comfortable, it would be interesting to see if this levelled you out enough to not cause the back problem (even if it did cause a pressure problem). You could also start with the medium over the firm if you wanted to start with something a little softer for the sake of getting some sleep. Either would be a good place to begin (without the Talalay) and if either way your back pain didn't happen, then it would just be a matter of finding a top layer that kept you "level" and was comfortable enough for daily sleeping. This could be softer (to more closely mimic a typical plush layer so your upper back would sink more deeply) or firmer (so your lower body would not sink in as deeply). It would also tell you if zoning in the lower layers might help you. Dunlop also has a slightly firmer side and a less firm side so you could try them with the firmer sides up as well. These kind of issues are why the guy at at trulyadjustable makes his beds with "double zoning" by cutting the upper half of a layer at an "appropriate place" depending on torso measurement and replacing it with something softer to let the shoulders sink in more. He may be on to something with this. At least sleeping without the Talalay at all would be a place to start with what you have. Again, you may not want to even go here but I really do think it would be interesting. Phoenix firm, medium, medium firm, firm, medium firm, soft, sort (this is the most comfortable) etc...
I just spent a week on vacation on an absolutely junk mattress, while it was not the most comfortable I still had no back pain. So I have the latex mattress listed on Craigslist and will start the search for a new mattress tomorrow :)
Thanks for your considerable efforts to help sort this out but honestly it should not be this hard to get a reasonably comfortable mattress... This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by jms969
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Did you try the 2 layers without the talalay? I only saw the 3 layer combos that you tried. Did you mean your most comfortable layer was a firm on top of 2 soft or 2 soft on top of firm? Either way if comfortable means less back pain it points to a solution. It also seems to fit why it only happens with latex. It would sure be a shame to either throw away or take a huge loss on such a beautiful mattress after only 2 years or so when another week might solve the problem. In any case que sera sera lol Phoenix This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by Phoenix
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