|
I have searched the forums without much luck, so I am posting my question here. About a year ago we purchased a split king from SleepEZ. My side has a Talalay soft layer and Dunlop medium and firm layers. When I sleep on the mattress my mid to upper back gets so painful that it wakes me in the night and it tends to be painful the entire next day. I have tried all possible combinations and permutations of the layers with little relief. (I have the same problem on my wifes side of the bed) I have tried thick pillows, soft pillows, two pillows etc. I have also tried different toppers I do tend to end up on my side, occasionally on my stomach... I sleep fine on the guest room traditional mattress or in a recliner. We are going to have to get rid of the bed if we cannot come up with a solution... Any thoughts? Thanks jms This message was modified Feb 26, 2010 by jms969
|
|
Here's the bed that hilton sells http://www.hiltontohome.com/productGroup.aspx?category1=Bedding&category1Name=Bedding&categoryLevel=0&itemID=HIL-124 It's posturized which is the spring equivalent of latex zoning with a firmer section under your hips. This would raise your hips relative to your shoulders/upper back. If your lower body sinks in too much and your upper body not enough, you end up with a kind of "hunched" position which can cause upper back issues. This would also depend to a degree on your weight distribution (added a question in my previous post about triangles, rectangles etc). A higher pillow would worsen this. My guess is that regardless of the top layer, firm, plush or pillowtop as in the hilton, you need more underlying firmness in your lower body relative to your upper body or more softness in your upper body relative to your lower body. Somehow the layers you have are not allowing your upper body to sink in enough or your lower body too much. You said you tended to end up on your side (perhaps the body is trying to get the shoulders to sink in more by side sleeping where the shoulder pressure point is more "pointed" than the back) and occasionaly your stomach (trying to compensate for a "hunch" with "hyperextension" the other way. Do you tend to start on your back or prefer back sleeping or do you end up on your side or stomach on other beds just as much? Have you tried sleeping on the firm dunlop layer on top of the medium dunlop layer without the Talalay at all? It may be the culprit in that even soft latex could tend to offer more support to your upper back than a typical super soft plush layer or pillowtop which in turn is keeping your upper body too high when you are on your back (when you are on your back the weight of your upper body is distributed over a wider area and even the softer top layer in Talalay would hold your upper body up more relative to your lower body which would have a more concentrated weight and sink in more deeply). Typical plush layers in other non latex beds would not be as supportive and so you would not have this problem if this was the case. While it might not be too comfortable, it would be interesting to see if this levelled you out enough to not cause the back problem (even if it did cause a pressure problem). You could also start with the medium over the firm if you wanted to start with something a little softer for the sake of getting some sleep. Either would be a good place to begin (without the Talalay) and if either way your back pain didn't happen, then it would just be a matter of finding a top layer that kept you "level" and was comfortable enough for daily sleeping. This could be softer (to more closely mimic a typical plush layer so your upper back would sink more deeply) or firmer (so your lower body would not sink in as deeply). It would also tell you if zoning in the lower layers might help you. Dunlop also has a slightly firmer side and a less firm side so you could try them with the firmer sides up as well. These kind of issues are why the guy at at trulyadjustable makes his beds with "double zoning" by cutting the upper half of a layer at an "appropriate place" depending on torso measurement and replacing it with something softer to let the shoulders sink in more. He may be on to something with this. At least sleeping without the Talalay at all would be a place to start with what you have. Again, you may not want to even go here but I really do think it would be interesting. Phoenix This message was modified Oct 10, 2010 by Phoenix
|
|
Phoenix wrote: Here's the bed that hilton sells http://www.hiltontohome.com/productGroup.aspx?category1=Bedding&category1Name=Bedding&categoryLevel=0&itemID=HIL-124 It's posturized which is the spring equivalent of latex zoning with a firmer section under your hips. This would raise your hips relative to your shoulders/upper back. If your lower body sinks in too much and your upper body not enough, you end up with a kind of "hunched" position which can cause upper back issues. This would also depend to a degree on your weight distribution (added a question in my previous post about triangles, rectangles etc). A higher pillow would worsen this. My guess is that regardless of the top layer, firm, plush or pillowtop as in the hilton, you need more underlying firmness in your lower body relative to your upper body or more softness in your upper body relative to your lower body. Somehow the layers you have are not allowing your upper body to sink in enough or your lower body too much. You said you tended to end up on your side (perhaps the body is trying to get the shoulders to sink in more by side sleeping where the shoulder pressure point is more "pointed" than the back) and occasionaly your stomach (trying to compensate for a "hunch" with "hyperextension" the other way. Do you tend to start on your back or prefer back sleeping or do you end up on your side or stomach on other beds just as much? Have you tried sleeping on the firm dunlop layer on top of the medium dunlop layer without the Talalay at all? It may be the culprit in that even soft latex could tend to offer more support to your upper back than a typical super soft plush layer or pillowtop which in turn is keeping your upper body too high when you are on your back (when you are on your back the weight of your upper body is distributed over a wider area and even the softer top layer in Talalay would hold your upper body up more relative to your lower body which would have a more concentrated weight and sink in more deeply). Typical plush layers in other non latex beds would not be as supportive and so you would not have this problem if this was the case. While it might not be too comfortable, it would be interesting to see if this levelled you out enough to not cause the back problem (even if it did cause a pressure problem). You could also start with the medium over the firm if you wanted to start with something a little softer for the sake of getting some sleep. Either would be a good place to begin (without the Talalay) and if either way your back pain didn't happen, then it would just be a matter of finding a top layer that kept you "level" and was comfortable enough for daily sleeping. This could be softer (to more closely mimic a typical plush layer so your upper back would sink more deeply) or firmer (so your lower body would not sink in as deeply). It would also tell you if zoning in the lower layers might help you. Dunlop also has a slightly firmer side and a less firm side so you could try them with the firmer sides up as well. These kind of issues are why the guy at at trulyadjustable makes his beds with "double zoning" by cutting the upper half of a layer at an "appropriate place" depending on torso measurement and replacing it with something softer to let the shoulders sink in more. He may be on to something with this. At least sleeping without the Talalay at all would be a place to start with what you have. Again, you may not want to even go here but I really do think it would be interesting. Phoenix firm, medium, medium firm, firm, medium firm, soft, sort (this is the most comfortable) etc...
I just spent a week on vacation on an absolutely junk mattress, while it was not the most comfortable I still had no back pain. So I have the latex mattress listed on Craigslist and will start the search for a new mattress tomorrow :)
Thanks for your considerable efforts to help sort this out but honestly it should not be this hard to get a reasonably comfortable mattress... This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by jms969
|
|
Did you try the 2 layers without the talalay? I only saw the 3 layer combos that you tried. Did you mean your most comfortable layer was a firm on top of 2 soft or 2 soft on top of firm? Either way if comfortable means less back pain it points to a solution. It also seems to fit why it only happens with latex. It would sure be a shame to either throw away or take a huge loss on such a beautiful mattress after only 2 years or so when another week might solve the problem. In any case que sera sera lol Phoenix This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by Phoenix
|
|
Phoenix wrote: Did you try the 2 layers without the talalay? I only saw the 3 layer combos that you tried. Did you mean your most comfortable layer was a firm on top of 2 soft or 2 soft on top of firm? Either way if comfortable means less back pain it points to a solution. It also seems to fit why it only happens with latex. It would sure be a shame to either throw away or take a huge loss on such a beautiful mattress after only 2 years or so when another week might solve the problem. In any case que sera sera lol Phoenix The most comfortable is firm on bottom, with two soft talalay layers. It is usually good for two nights then the pain returns with a vengence... Medium and soft, soft are to soft. Yeah I am not particularly happy about it either, but don't really have a choice, gotta stop sleeping on the couch... |
|
OK ... Applying logic here (and I know when it comes to mattresses, logic doesn't always work lol) Problem seems to be that the lower body is sinking in too deep relative to the upper body and causing upper back pain. Fits the symptoms. Only happens on your latex mattress and not on a variety of both harder and softer other mattresses. Probable cause is that even soft latex is more supportive than regular pillowtops and doesn't let your upper body sink in enough. Fits the symptoms. Soft, Soft, Firm seems to somewhat help temporarily. Probable cause is that your upper body gets to sink in a little deeper relative to lower body (lower body would still sink on a firmer middle layer while the upper body wouldn't). Fits the symptoms. Still to test: Firmest possible combination of firm over medium with no soft layer (not even on the bottom). While this would not let the upper body sink much, the lower body would also not sink as much and overall alignment may also be better (perhaps even better than soft soft firm). May also be OK for a couple of days or maybe longer if alignment is better than soft soft firm, even though it might not be so comfortable without a soft upper layer. If this is the case (soft over soft over firm ... and ... firm over medium both help at least to some degree) we have likely nailed the problem. If we've nailed the problem (still to be determined), then coming to a solution is way easier. Knowing your body weight distribution (up or down triangle or rectangle or some variation) would also help in this case. I am guessing that given your comments earlier in this thread, that you may carry a little extra weight in your lower body (triangle point up) but that it is not anything dramatic. Even if you do end up dumping this mattress, the information that comes from the experiment could help you in finding a "perfect" replacement (as opposed to just ok or "works for a while" replacement) for your body type. Phoenix |
|
Sounds like what you really need is some zoning. Perhaps Flobeds would sell you half of a vzone layer that has been returned. This way you can customize what is under your hips (and other areas) vs. what is under the shoulders. Softer under shoulders, firmer under hips (or whatever works!). Or, possibly you could cut out a part of one of the firmer pieces under the shoulder areas and put in a softer piece of latex (or other foam). Maybe buy a 1" soft twin piece and cut it up to the right sizes to fit The vzone has a soft piece from about 13" from the top of the bed down to about 23". So, 1 soft 10" x half width of mattress x depth of latex layer (3"?) would do. You could probalby have the soft layer all the way from the top down 23", because I don't think what is under the head matters that much I actually have done this, in my bottom 32ILD layer. Right now I have so much foam over it tha it may not make much difference, but near the top it could make a significant difference. |
|
jms, i've got the same problem. latex causing back pain. i think mine is probably too soft, but dunlop is awfully firm so that may not be your problem. i share your frustration. best of luck! |
|
jasmine wrote: jms, i've got the same problem. latex causing back pain. i think mine is probably too soft, but dunlop is awfully firm so that may not be your problem. i share your frustration. best of luck! I have pain with one firm dunlop layer and two soft talalay layers... So I do not think to firm is the issue, I think latex is the issue
But the good news is, it looks like I have sold it on CL, hopefully they pick it up tonight and I am done with it... Expensive experiment :( |
|
Glad you sold it, sorry it didn't work out. I have Talalay natural latex over Dunlop. I have no back issues. One thing often ignored is the cover they put on mattresses, Sleepeze included, might be too tight, and no give. Same thing for mattress pads as Sandman is reporting back on in another thread. I have big issues with mattress pads. Look at that on your future mattress. This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by Leo3
|
|
"I think latex is the issue" Not so much the material itself but the support it gives in the softer ILD's very well could be. An HR poly foam with the same qualities (ILD and support ratio) would have the same issues. From everything I know and based on the people I've talked to that know a lot more than me, back issues have very little to do with firmness or softness per se ... even though it's a common misperception. It has much more to do with how well the back is aligned when you are sleeping and misalignment ... and back issues ... can happen with any firmness of mattress. The days of "firmer is better" are long over ... thank goodness lol I'm glad you sold your mattress ... and good luck with your next one! Phoenix |