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Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)... As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it. Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back. So I did surgery on it tonight.  I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. I did expect more from Englander... I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside!  What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands... On top of the 1 and 5/16 inches of soft junky pu foam, there was the whatchacallit, the top sewn into tufts, whatever they call that thing. (What kind of a mattress expert am I??! I can never remember the name of that top piece!  ) I removed that too because it's just the same cheap junky foam sewn together with a cloth and tufted...(By the way, if you buy the Malibu PLUSH instead of the Malibu FIRM, know what you get? Instead of 1 and 5/16" of junky pu foam, you get about 5" of junky pu foam! That must REALLY hurt people's backs!) This kind of mattress construction - which all the major companies are using, now, STINKS! PU foam = Peee Eww!  So, I took off ALL the foam, and then replaced it with this, from bottom up: 1" of zoned HR foam: top = medium, middle = firm, and bottom = very firm (feet area doesn't really matter, imho) 3/4" of medium-soft latex (Talalay - not certain of the ILD - maybe 24 or 28?) 1" of Venus foam So it's about the same amount of foam as it had - now 2 and 3/4 instead of just 2" - but the main difference is that now I have QUALITY foam on top of the springs, foam that gives SUPPORT as well as softness. Will post more as the experiment progresses... I'll be playing around with this combination, see how it feels. My wife has something very similar to this on top of her Sealy springs, and she likes it pretty well.- P.S. the springs seem to feel pretty good. I can't say for sure though until I've slept on them with good foam for a while This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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The bottom line here is that I understand Alex's perspective but the bottom line is that things need to be changed in the mattress industry. It's simply NOT consumer friendly and actually creates confusion and encourages deceptive practices. Alex says, "Okay you know if it's a Signature it's this and if it's a this, it's that" (paraphrasing is easier than going back and copying and pasting, here). But the bottom line is, this should not be necessary at all. It should just be clear from the stats posted next to the same model name and prices what we are buying. Period. Just like computers at Best Buy: If the customer knows nothing about computers, he goes in and asks the salesman to recommend something based on what he thinks he wants. The salesman then can do as Alex says and point him to what he knows the customer REALLY needs, or let the customer buy what he thinks he wants. But for the rest of us, who do want to learn a little and comparison shop based on facts and research, it should all be laid out as I said above: Springs, foams, types and ILD's of foam on a card next to the mattress. Period. This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by jimsocal
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Interesting thread. I hope your mattress is sleeping better, Jim! Alex, your posts are also interesting, but since I am also one who has gone through so many beds and ended up with sore back time and again(and have given the beds with as little as three months of use to friends and family who also find them painful), I beg to differ with your assertation that only a few people are dissatisfied with their bed purchase. There just typically is no recourse. I could go through all of my past bed woes but I don't feel like boring you. I did not purchase "low end" beds, but instead, mid-range beds, around $2K each...and still got back pain from the use of the cheap P/U foam. That's why I finally went back to a bed made by an actual person who did what I asked. I'm much improved now. IME when you buy a top of the line bed you are paying for more foam. You rarely sleep anywhere near the springs anymore. So, what is the secret to the comfort of your bed? You must know the layers and springs....how are they different than the others? Kait This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by Kait
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Kait, You don't have to take my word for it. Pick up a copy of the October 2009 Consumer Reports. They poll 17,000 of their readers. In it you'll find facts such as this: - 78% of those who spent more than $4000 on their mattress said they were "highly satisfied" with it. - 66% of those who spent less than $1000 on their mattress said they were "highly satisfied" with it. - 78% of people who purchased a mattress said a new bed, any new bed, improved their ability to get a good night's sleep. - 42% said that their new mattress "greatly improved" their sleep. There are people out there who have troubles for whatever reason. Usually it's the wrong bed. Sometimes they're a unique case that requires an extensive amount of expertise to narrow in on what (if anything) will solve their problem. For the most part, however, consumers are satisfied with their purchase. Most are even "highly satisfied". So far as my Simmons Black goes it's all about knowing what was right for me. I'm a side sleeper which means the individual coil systems tend to be better. It 230lbs I'm also not a small man which means a thicker gauge coil is needed. I sleep warm but like to burrow into my mattress. This means a cashmere top with Talalay latex is my best option. The Rosalyn has these features ergo I am highly satisfied. - Alex This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by Alexander
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Alexander wrote: Kait, You don't have to take my word for it. Pick up a copy of the October 2009 Consumer Reports. They poll 17,000 of their readers. In it you'll find facts such as this: - 78% of those who spent more than $4000 on their mattress said they were "highly satisfied" with it. - 66% of those who spent less than $1000 on their mattress said they were "highly satisfied" with it. - 78% of people who purchased a mattress said a new bed, any new bed, improved their ability to get a good night's sleep. - 42% said that their new mattress "greatly improved" their sleep. There are people out there who have troubles for whatever reason. Usually it's the wrong bed. Sometimes they're a unique case that requires an extensive amount of expertise to narrow in on what (if anything) will solve their problem. For the most part, however, consumers are satisfied with their purchase. Most are even "highly satisfied". So far as my Simmons Black goes it's all about knowing what was right for me. I'm a side sleeper which means the individual coil systems tend to be better. It 230lbs I'm also not a small man which means a thicker gauge coil is needed. I sleep warm but like to burrow into my mattress. This means a cashmere top with Talalay latex is my best option. The Rosalyn has these features ergo I am highly satisfied. - Alex Alex: I am afraid you are going to think that I am being too critical of you, hopefully that is not the case and I am being fair in my evaluation. However, like most of us, you have your point of view. The question is always," how accurate is that point of view." You are quite happy with your Simmons Rosalyn mattress. I am glad for you. However as seen on this website, while the majority, namely 58%, give this mattress a thumbs-up review,42% give it thumbs down. These reviews can be found at viewpoints.com under Simmons -- beauty rest -- black -- Rosslyn -- mattress. To give these figures more meaning I will quote what they have on their website. Out of 31 reviews... 42% gave it five stars, 16% 4 stars, 0% gave it 3 stars, 10% gave it 2 stars and a whopping 32% gave it 1 star. Or to put it more simply. 18 people gave it a thumbs up and 13 people gave it a thumbs down. You evidently would have given it 5 stars. But according to this limited review, 42% of the people would not have agree with you. One of the principal things that you keep reading is how the mattress breaks down over time and gives some of the people a backache. I have a 10 year old waterbed. It was one of those beds with a waveless fiber piece that did an excellent job for about five years. Oh yes, it is a soft sided waterbed. But over time the fiber began to bunch up on one side of the bed. Also I have noticed with a waterbed, you will lose water over a period of time through some kind of evaporation. My guess is that it loses about 5 to 10 gallons over the course of a year. This is so gradual that you hardly notice. But finally it begins to dawn on you that your mattress is getting softer and it's time to put some water in. What happens to me is that with my bad back if I am mowing the yard or doing something to strain it, then my waterbed, will actually contribute towards more problems with my bad back. This happened recently and is what got me into looking at mattresses again. After I put some water in my bed, move my sleeping positions over the side where the flotation material had decided to lodge I got better. Now I'm wondering "what am I doing trying to spend $3000 of money we can not afford." I don't blame anybody for my situation other than myself. But when I go shopping for a new bed it would be Oh so wonderful to really hear, "the whole complete truth" about the product that I'm looking at. Surely, as a man who was a successful seller of mattresses for 35 years, and cared a great deal about his customers, and knew a great deal about mattresses, you can see and understand the frustration of those of us who just want a good nights sleep. Were willing to pay for that privilege. But we do need assistance in trying to find a product worthy of our money. Thus, sites like this one! This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by eagle2
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I will read that and get back to you. If I paid $4K for a bed I'd sure say I liked it too...otherwise I'd feel like a fool! Sometimes it takes a bit of time to know if a bed is truly comfortable or not. As you buy bed after bed after bed with no recourse a person gets a bit jaded. I hate to think about how much $ I spent on beds in the last ten years. S & F sent a rep out to look at mine and LIED about the issues on her report. Things like that leave a bad taste. Kait |
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eagle2 wrote: Alex: I am afraid you are going to think that I am being too critical of you, hopefully that is not the case and I am being fair in my evaluation. However, like most of us, you have your point of view. The question is always," how accurate is that point of view." You are quite happy with your Simmons Rosalyn mattress. I am glad for you. However as seen on this website, while the majority, namely 52%, give this mattress a thumbs-up review,42% give it thumbs down. These reviews can be found at viewpoints.com under Simmons -- beauty rest -- black -- Rosslyn -- mattress. To give these figures more meaning I will quote what they have on their website. Out of 31 reviews... 42% gave it five stars, 16% 4 stars, 0% gave it 3 stars, 10% gave it 2 stars and a whopping 32% gave it 1 star. Or to put it more simply. 18 people gave it a thumbs up and 13 people gave it a thumbs down. You evidently would have given it 5 stars. But according to this limited review, 42% of the people would not have agree with you. One of the principal things that you keep reading is how the mattress breaks down over time and gives some of the people a backache. I have an 10 year old waterbed. It was one of those beds with a waveless fiber piece that did an excellent job for about five years. Oh yes, it is a soft sided waterbed. But over time the fiber began to bunch up on one side of the bed. Also I have noticed with a waterbed, you will lose water over a period of time through some kind of evaporation. My guess is that it loses about 5 to 10 gallons over the course of a year. This is so gradual that you hardly notice. But finally it begins to dawn on you that your mattress is getting softer and it's time to put some water in. What happens to me is that with my bad back if I am mowing the yard or doing something to strain it, then my waterbed, will actually contribute towards more problems with my bad back. This happened recently and is what got me into looking at mattresses again. After I put some water in my bed, move my sleeping positions over the side where the flotation material had decided to lodge I got better. Now I'm wondering "what am I doing trying to spend $3000 of money we can afford." I don't blame anybody for my situation other than myself. But when I go shopping for a new bed it would be Oh so wonderful to really hear, "the whole complete truth" about the product that I'm looking at. Surely, as a man who was a successful seller of mattresses for 35 years, and cared a great deal about his customers, and knew a great deal about mattresses, you can see and understand the frustration of those of us who just want a good nights sleep. Were willing to pay for that privilege. But we do need assistance in trying to find a product worthy of our money. Thus, sites like this one! Eagle, I understand your frustration and the frustration of others on this board. I'm trying to put it back on the track of giving answers and helping people answer the question of "What's the Best Mattress (For me)?" Villifying the mattress industry doesn't really answer that question or do much of anything productive. The feedback on viewpoints.com is a perfect example of why some people aren't satisfied with their purchase. A bed is not like a television or a microwave. It's more like a shoe. Currently I'm wearing a pair of size 12 reinforced toe black dockers dress shoes. If I took 100 random people and had them walk around in my size 12 reinforced toe black dockers dress shoes for a month many people might come back with negative reviews of the shoe. They might say it hurts their feet or it wasn't supportive. There's nothing wrong with my shoes, it's simply not the right shoe for all of them. It's the right shoe for me and people who have needs similar to mine. My bed is the same way. In a crowd of 20 I bet I could find at least 2 who say the bed is too soft. I bet I can find another 2 who say the bed is too hard. I could find 2 who say the bed completely lacks support. I could find 2 who think it feels amazing. There is no answer for the question "What's the Best Mattress?" But that's okay. This is the wrong question. The correct question is "What's the Best Mattress For Me?" For this reason specific Mattress Reviews are more or less useless. This is why Consumer Reports doesn't do them. You happen to be a consumer who prefers more detail in your purchase. Far finer detail than the average consumer. That's absolutely fine. My advice to you is to find someone who knows what you're asking and purchase from that person. Or use forums such as these to reach a broader audience. I can answer most any question you'd have regarding Tempurpedic, Stearns and Foster, Sealy, Simmons, and Serta as well as general questions regarding coil and foam types and how they may affect your specific needs. If I don't know the answer, I can probably find out via the vendor contacts I've built over time. Does every mattress RSA have access to these tools? No. If this bothers you vote with your wallet and don't purchase from that establishment but understand that the detail with which you're attempting to shop is by far the exception rather than the rule. Most consumers zone out if you try to explain to them that there's more than one type of foam out there. |
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Alex: I will make this short and to the point. What people like Jimsocial and I, and most others, on this forum want, is the correct, true information regarding what the mattresses are constructed of. Simple, concise, accurate, truthful information. It is true that most people would simply become confused and turned off by such information. Most people hear like this, "one, two, three, and a bunch." if you give them anything more than a 1 2 3 approach, they just hear "A Bunch!" That is no reason to not have this information available. The people who are not interested don't have to read it. But those of us who want to know, what we are actually sleeping on, would deeply appreciate this kind of information. My guess would be, that if this were to happen, and people were willing to get informed about the most important piece of furniture in the house, that it would actually improve the mattress industry. They would have to compete on quality and not Naming Conventions and price only. Not Nice Colored Mattress Covers and how soft it felt in the show room. They would have to compete on quality. This might cut into the manufacturers profit margins, then again it might not. In any event, I don't believe it's going to ever happen unless the government makes it happen. The mattress industry is quite happy with the way things are now and my guess is they would fight tooth and toenail against any changes that would impinge on what they perceive as their "proprietary territory." |
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Eagle, Perhaps I am mistaken as to the purpose of this forum then. I was under the impression that it was to answer questions regarding mattresses to help people find the best mattress for them. I didn't know that the purpose was to incite revolution within the industry. My apologies, -Alex |
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Alexander wrote: Eagle, Perhaps I am mistaken as to the purpose of this forum then. I was under the impression that it was to answer questions regarding mattresses to help people find the best mattress for them. I didn't know that the purpose was to incite revolution within the industry. My apologies, -Alex No need to apologize Alex. But it is revealing to see your take on my last post. For the last 15 years of my working life I was a traveling factory representative for a major manufacturer of industrial containers. We sold to the petrochemical and agrochemical businesses. I traveled all over the midwest calling on the major oil companies and chemical companies. There was never any doubt, in anyone's mind, about what went into our product. It was controlled by the DOT (Department of Transportation) . Everybody knew what a 55 gallon DOT 17 E. 20/18gauge tighthead drum was made out of. And God forbid, if for any reason, my company would produced anything less than stipulated. The point being, both the manufacturer and the customer knew exactly what that stipulation was. When they paid their money they received exactly what they expected. You just seem to be intent on seeing this discussion on this board center around condemnation of the manufactures of mattresses. Yes, we are condemning them, but for a very good reason. They do not want to say exactly what is in their mattresses that we are buying. And the fact that a lot of people do not care for this information is not an excuse to not provide it to those of us who do want to know. You do seem to be very defensive of an industry that can hide almost anything, and everything, inside of a fancy cover. If that is being too harsh on the mattress manufacturing industry, so be it! |
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Alexander wrote: Eagle, Perhaps I am mistaken as to the purpose of this forum then. I was under the impression that it was to answer questions regarding mattresses to help people find the best mattress for them. I didn't know that the purpose was to incite revolution within the industry. My apologies, -Alex In my opinion, what we are doing is suggesting that the way the mattress industry is and has been conducting its business is anti-consumer and seems to almost border on intentional obfuscation of materials used. All you have to do is look at most S company web sites and I am betting (I have not done so yet) that you will find almost NO information on contents of the foams or springs - that is, no REAL information. Sure they'll mention their "revolutionary new spring design" or their "so-and-so special patented foam design" but nothing that anyone can really sink their teeth into and use for comparison shopping (i.e; HR ILD 36, or even Medium high-density foam") You MAY be right (or you may not be) that the majority of people are happy with their mattresses. I'd say that IF that is true, it must be a miracle because between the ignorant salespeople and the anti-disclosure manufacturers, it is very hard to know what one is getting. I do think there are a LOT of people who can "sleep on anything" and so are not very picky. I'd also say there are probably at least 33% of us who do need a better mattress than what most people buy. And THAT is the point. You keep saying that people do not want to know what is in their mattresses. I think that is true right now, mostly because they know it is a real pain or even impossible to find out, and because there has been no education on it. I suppose computers could have been sold the same way: "Well, this one is really FAST!" "But what's in it?" "Gee, I'm not sure... " "Well, can you get me the specs on it?" "Well, I dunno... maybe..." Pretty soon people would just stop asking and instead say, "Well, I want one that's really fast for surfing the net and burning movies". "Okay, you need the Super Duper (trademark) WhammoSurfAndBurn model!" "Oh, okay... if you say so..." And years from now the computer vendors would say, "Gee, no one ever asks, they don't want to know that stuff, they just want what I tell them is best for them!" And believe me, a lot of people DO buy their computers like that, even though Best Buy puts the little card there that tells us most of what we do want to know. But at least the consumer has the OPTION of easily finding out. Look on the web site for a computer at BestBuy - it tells you a TON of info about it; more than MOST people care to know. But then there are educated buyers like you and me who Do want to know... I'm trying to think of any other industry besides furniture that does not disclose the materials its made of or makes it hard to find out - where the materials play such an important part in the quality and utility of the product! Clothes are labeled, computers, food, phones, cars, stereos, tv's...lots of info about them. No, not the steel they're made from, but then that is not a major factor in tv's. But in mattresses the gauge of steel DOES play a big factor, the ILD of foams DO play a major factor! Just because things have been done this way for 50 years or more - or forever - doesn't mean they should continue to be done this way. Any search on the net about mattresses will reveal TONS of unhappy customers. More and more I am running into people I know who say, "Yeah, I just bought a mattress and it is killing my back!" My sister in law is one of these and she asked the store to exchange it or replace it and they "can't". So what is she to do? I bet tons of people are unhappy with their mattress after 6 months or a year but they don't tell the salesman because they KNOW there is no recourse for them. Then they probably just go to a different store next time... Is there any wonder, when they are putting 5" or more of non-supportive PU foam in them, that the foam is breaking down quickly and causing back problems?? It would not take long for mattress buyers to realize the differences between one mattress and another IF the info was POSTED next to the bed! People "don't want to know" only because mattresses have been presented as a "mystery". I just talked to a friend of mine yesterday who did not even know what is inside a mattress. Had no idea. He's not stupid, he's quite bright. He just never thought about it and never asked. The fact is, it is clear that the mattress industry does NOT WANT TO TELL US what is inside, they do not want us asking "those" questions, and my experience has been, they won't even tell you if you call the 800# for customer service and ASK them! Now, later this week, I may test my hypothesis by calling Sealy, Spring Air, etc. and see if they will tell me the info I want re a few of their middle-to-high end mattresses. If I could, I would gather the specs on about 20 middle and high end mattresses here and we'd see how much PU foam is in them. I'd guess that the majority have too much non-supportive foam and are thus, something I would never pay good money for. Getting back to your post above, part of "what is the best mattress" has to do with finding out what is in it, at least for us "picky" customers, those of us with sleep issues or who have already had crappy mattresses full of cheap PU foam and have learned that the crappy PU foam plays a part in the problems we've had. SO, for THAT reason, "what is the best mattress" (this web site, I mean) DOES have to do with changing the industry. Because right now it is VERY hard to get clear info about what types and ILD's of foam are in the mattresses being sold! So maybe the only way to help people buy mattresses that are best for them - especially people who can't find an "Alexander" in their town to help them! - is to start demanding that the mattress companies DISCLOSE THE INFORMATION WE NEED to make a good decision! I am actually going to write my Congressmen about the mattress industry one of these days, soon, and request that it be looked at. This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by jimsocal
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