MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)... As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it. Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back. So I did surgery on it tonight.  I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. I did expect more from Englander... I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside!  What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands... On top of the 1 and 5/16 inches of soft junky pu foam, there was the whatchacallit, the top sewn into tufts, whatever they call that thing. (What kind of a mattress expert am I??! I can never remember the name of that top piece!  ) I removed that too because it's just the same cheap junky foam sewn together with a cloth and tufted...(By the way, if you buy the Malibu PLUSH instead of the Malibu FIRM, know what you get? Instead of 1 and 5/16" of junky pu foam, you get about 5" of junky pu foam! That must REALLY hurt people's backs!) This kind of mattress construction - which all the major companies are using, now, STINKS! PU foam = Peee Eww!  So, I took off ALL the foam, and then replaced it with this, from bottom up: 1" of zoned HR foam: top = medium, middle = firm, and bottom = very firm (feet area doesn't really matter, imho) 3/4" of medium-soft latex (Talalay - not certain of the ILD - maybe 24 or 28?) 1" of Venus foam So it's about the same amount of foam as it had - now 2 and 3/4 instead of just 2" - but the main difference is that now I have QUALITY foam on top of the springs, foam that gives SUPPORT as well as softness. Will post more as the experiment progresses... I'll be playing around with this combination, see how it feels. My wife has something very similar to this on top of her Sealy springs, and she likes it pretty well.- P.S. the springs seem to feel pretty good. I can't say for sure though until I've slept on them with good foam for a while This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress
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Hey Jim, I've been off the Forum for awhile and was suprised to check in tonight and find you'd bought yet another mattress. I didn't even know Englander made innerspring mattresses. I've only ever seen their latex--or Laytex as they call it--mattresses in stores. Englander uses a 30 ILD core in their natural Talalay mattresses with a softer latex topper and Quiltflex in the upholstry, which is even softer, so no wonder people start complaining of backaches. Not firm enough to provide adequate support for most people. You know me--I'm all for mattress surgery, but that's gotta be some kind of record. Four nights before it went under the exacto knife for a foamectomy (I LOVE that term!) Well, I guess you bought it for the springs. I'm looking forward to seeing your pictures of what's under the Englander hood. And yeah, what is with those lumpy tufted tops on today's mattresses? Who on earth decided that was supposed to be comfortable? Anyway, the new configuration sounds very promising. Hope this is IT at last. By the by, do you know what kind of spring unit the mattress has? If they nailed the support level for you at least they're doing something right! |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress
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ok I know this is going to be a dumb question but . . . Everyone talks about doing mattress surgery - how exactly do you do that and how do you put the cover back together after you've cut into it??? My mental image is of someone taking an xacto knife and cutting 2 or 3 sides of the mattress top to get the foam out - then what happens? how do you seal it back up again? |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress
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Jim, I can't wait to see your pics of mattress surgery, and I think it's terribly disappointing that Englander's are the same as the S's. How does the mattress industry get away with this? I wonder if they're in cahoots with the sleeping pill industry... ;-) Thank you for all of your helpful posts - you've been such a great resource to me as I've learned that there are more options than what my mattress store has. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress
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jimsocal wrote: I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. For best forum viewing, resize images to around 640x480. Copy online host image url and paste in posting HTML tag < img src="url"/ > (without any spaces).This message was modified Sep 4, 2009 by sager66
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress
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sager66 wrote: For best forum viewing, resize images to around 640x480. Copy online host image url and paste in posting HTML tag < img src="url"/ > (without any spaces). Thanks sager66, I'll try that. Last time I tried I had problems figuring it out so we'll see... To the person who wrote asking about mattress surgery: use the search box , it's your friend. Several people have posted pictures and specific info on it. I was one of the first to post pictures of it, I think and you can find those here: http://img134.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img134/1785/1201983161pn8.smil Others have posted better pictures and more details since then, but that should give you an idea... Watch this post for the pictures to come, later today or tomorrow... |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress
| Jim, can't wait to see the pics. Sweet. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress
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Vaphils wrote: Jim, can't wait to see the pics. Sweet. [NOTE TO ADMIN: I dont know if this is okay, to embed this here... If not, please let me know and I'll remove it and go back to just posting the links. ] Well, here is the slide show: <embed src="http://img443.yfrog.com/slideshow/smilplayer.swf" width="426" height="320" name="smilplayer" id="smilplayer" bgcolor="FFFFFF" menu="false" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" flashvars="id=img443/closeupofenglandermalib.jpg"/> And here is the gallery if you want to take a closer/longer look at a particular photo: http://img443.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=closeupofenglandermalib.jpg Unfortunately I cannot get this link to work as a link - you have to copy and paste it. I'm going to ask about this in a new thread. Note that these are on imageshack, a free hosting service, so sometimes they may take a minute or so to load, or not load at all. If you have trouble try again later. If the admin removes the above slide show or if it does not work within this message, try copying and pasting this for the slide show: http://img443.yfrog.com/slideshow/webplayer.php?id=closeupofenglandermalib.jpg This message was modified Sep 4, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress
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I'm going to pull back the curtains and show you the great and powerful "Oz", the Mattress Wizard, the behind-the-scenes look at what's inside your mattress. Most mattresses are the same, especially most S brand or major brand mattresses. What you are about to see here is not just an indictment of Englander but of the entire mattress industry. There is no great "Oz" at all, it's just a bunch of junk under a pretty looking exterior. Okay, here we go: We have not done this a bunch of times, so we're still getting the hang of it... It can be done more "neatly" and "nicely" but we're of the opinion that how it looks isn't all that important. No one sleeps on these mattresses but my wife and I. (Well, I HOPE that's the case, anyway...  ) So no one is seeing it but us... well, and now you folks...Here is how it looks using an exacto knife to start cutting in to the top of the mattress. We suggest cutting above the ribbing - that round part on the top edges - in order to make the "walls" of the mattress a little more sturdy and stable once you're done cutting. A tip here is that once you get it open, use the other hand to hold it apart and pull it behind the knife so as to keep tension on it. That makes it cut easier. Seems entirely obvious but we didn't catch on to that right away. I think next time we'll do much better. <img src="http://img137.yfrog.com/img137/62/cuttingitopenvga.jpg"> Another shot of the cutting. Here, we had to be careful not to cut the black cloth covering of the springs. If we had cut it, it wouldn't be a disaster but we did not want to cut the cover of the springs. <img src="http://img529.yfrog.com/img529/2847/cuttingitopen2vga.jpg"> Here's a shot of the mattress after 3 of the sides of the top were cut off, ready to cut the last side and remove the top piece: <img src="http://img143.yfrog.com/img143/8650/mattressaftercutting3si.jpg"> This shows the top of the mattress or what I call the quilting, made of low quality foam and material, and the 3 layers of the same low quality foam under that. This is ALL there is between your body and the Englander Malibu Firm springs. About an inch and a half of very low density, cheap, low quality white polyetheyline or pu foam. <img src="http://img529.yfrog.com/img529/2635/foamandquilttuftedcover.jpg"> Here is the side of the mattress showing the dacron or similar material that encases the springs, the black (fireproofing?) cover of the springs, and the 3 layers of foam on top of the springs. Does this look like quality manufacturing to you??? : <img src="http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6903/dacronencasingvga.jpg"> This isn't a great shot, but here's what it looks like after everything is taken off except for the material over the springs. Our Sealy which we gave a foam-ectomy to a year or so ago, had a 1/4" layer of memory foam over the springs instead of this material. I guess the main idea of this covering is to keep the springs from eating into the foam above it, it seems to be just a protection layer: <img src="http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/6963/materialoverspringsvgaf.jpg"> Okay, so now comes the new foam, some foam with integrity, some foam worthy of sleeping on! This is me holding my 3 pieces of 1" HR foam. I have it cut into Thirds, so that one piece is for my shoulders (about 28 ILD), one piece for my hips (maybe 34 ILD) and the bottom piece here, where my legs and feet go, is a Very Firm, maybe 40 ILD - the zone for the legs and feet doesn't really matter imho: <img src="http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4442/3densitiesofmyhrfoamvga.jpg"> Here, I've set the 1" HR foam on top of the mattress. Friction holds it in place. This happens to be the top 2 sections for my shoulders and hips: Medium and Firm: <img src="http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4966/justpushedtogethervga.jpg"> Now, on top of the 1" layer of zoned HR foam, I add a layer of 3/4" latex. Not sure of the ILD. We got it from a warehouse very cheap and they had no clue. I'm guessing 24-28 ILD .You may decide to put the latex on the bottom instead of HR foam, or perhaps LUX or M-Grade or whatever... just put something firm enough to be supportive. So here's my latex layer: <img src="http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/189/latexontopvga.jpg"> Here, you can see that I've "tucked" the latex layer into the corners. It could be cut to fit the corners perfectly but since we have been experimenting we haven't gotten around to doing that, so it's extra long and we just tuck it in. Also instead of cutting the HR foam, we just tuck the corners in. Good quality foam does not tear easily - except Venus and maybe some other memory foams, which are more fragile than Talalay latex and HR foam. Additionally, you see in this photo, the 1" layer of Venus foam setting on top, ready to be placed: <img src="http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7157/venusfoamontopvga.jpg"> Now, here's everything in place. The Venus memory foam was set on top (we didn't tuck it in because it tears easily) and then we just put the CuddleBed topper or mattress cover over it, which is nice because it has long elastic sides which cover the side of the mattress and no one would know the mattress has unsightly "surgical scars" around its edges! : <img src="http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/2195/finishedmattressvga.jpg"> The first night was very good. For some reason, often when I change my mattress the 1st night or two feel better, so I can't say for sure. But it HAS to be better now, with good quality foam instead of the low quality cheap foam that was in there. If it's not good I'll keep playing with it. I can add a firmer layer of HR in the zone of my hips, I can put Sensus instead of Venus on top, I can remove the cuddle bed topper, I can buy some Dunlop latex to replace or supplement the Talalay, etc. etc... For those of you who have never performed a "foam-ectomy" and are thinking of taking the plunge, just do it. Believe me, your mattress has junky foam inside which needs to be replaced. It will very likely save you from buying a new one AND give you a better sleep than anything you wuld probably buy. In my opinion, if you have good springs to start with - as long as they're not just used up and shot to heck - then you can make a great mattress by replacing the foam inside with higher quality foam. And it gives you the ability to ADJUST it, as well. Hope this helps someone get a better night's sleep. This message was modified Sep 4, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress
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cloud9 wrote: By the by, do you know what kind of spring unit the mattress has? If they nailed the support level for you at least they're doing something right! From what I was told, (and I am taking this with a grain of salt) they are Bonnell springs. I am pretty sure, though, that whatever they are, they are 12.5 gauge, which is why I bought them, based on having liked an Englander with 12.5 gauge springs, years ago. Everyone told me they were 12.5 gauge, without my specifically mentioning that number or anything, so I tend to believe it. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Great post. I intend to do this to my old mattress. The question is how to keep the springs from punching through the foam. My mattress is eight years old now, so I cannot bank on its equivalent of your black layer still being good. I noticed that Foam Factory / foamdistributing.com sells a few things. They sell PU foam "skins" or "crusts" which I guess are the top inch of foam from a PU pour. The hard, stiff surface crust is, and I quote: "Crust or skin is commonly used over springs because of its tough and durable surface." They come in the same size as PU foam, 82x76x1" thick, $15 for HD36 and $17 for Lux. They don't specify a Lux-HQ which is a minor bummer, since it's denser and supposedly more durable. The HD36 has an ILD of 35, the Lux is ILD 50. I'll be deciding on an order this weekend; my back has just started objecting to our memory foam mattress after 3 weeks so I need to do something to my side of it. |