| i have a sleepez bed that I keep trying to soften by adding more layers of foam in the case. So I now have 4.5 layers in a case meant for 3 layers. The case still zips, but I wonder if I am compressing the foam so much that it is affecting the feel. I have talalay latex, which always felt springy to me, but I am wondering if this made it more springy? Or if this is bad for the foam? |
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OK ... Lets see what we can do. I read through your original thread to get a better sense of where you've been. The goal as I understand it is (from a previous post) ... "I would also say that, to me, latex just doesn't feel as comfortable as a really nice spring and foam bed. I would love to be able to recreate that cushy pillowtop feeling in a mattress that would last and provide proper support." This is really helpful. So lets figure out what makes the pillowtop mattress so comfortable for you and then duplicate it as best we can with latex. A pillowtop basically has a bunch of softer poly over a firmer innerspring (with some padding in the quilting). The thicker layers of soft poly probably feel better to you because you seem to be pressure sensitive and need a thicker layer of softness on top for your weight. Around 4" of comfort layer is in the range of "probable". This means we are going to need a top layer of around 4" of softer latex. Too much and you get support issues and sinking in issues and too little and you get pressure issues. I also think the transition areas between layers will be important for you. I am one of those who is sensitive to transitions and found that a 2" layer of softer latex over a firmer core was an issue where 3" of the same density was not. Even though I am probably only "going through" the 2" a little and it's taking most of the pressure issues away, the last bit that I sink through bothers me (and my other half as well). This can be solved in 2 ways. Either a core layer that is closer to the comfort layer in ILD (gradual transition) or a thicker comfort layer that you don't go through which allows you to use a much firmer core layer for support ... or both. In your case I would tend to the thicker comfort layer that you don't go through on top of a firmer support layer which would come closer to an innerspring pillowtop and I also saw in the previous thread that you described a more gradual transition layering scheme as "too squishy". So we can test a few things just to see what happens and test all of this out. The only think I'm unsure of and need to make sure we take into account is the true ILD of the foambymail toppers. They so often send a different product than someone ordered that it would be easy to make a mistake based on believing that they really are what you ordered and make an "incorrect change". Having said that they could be exactly what you thought they were. Your feedback on this (comparing the FBM soft talalay to the sleepez soft talalay) would be helpful. First I would put the firmest layer on the bottom. It may not be firm enough but it's the best we have so the medium dunlop would be it. If you can tell the difference ... put the firmest side of the Dunlop up. Next I would put the soft sleepez talalay on top of that (not the foambymail talalay cause we don't know exactly what it is) and finally I would put the 1.5" foambymail convoluted topper on top of that (and hope that it really is a soft talalay and doesn't just feel soft because it's thinner and convoluted). Those 3 layers inside the cover are where I would start (the cover will be loose). I am hoping that putting the 3" medium Dunlop on a firm base with nothing under it and only a "just enough" comfort layer over it will make it as firm as it can be (like the innersprings) even though overall this construction may be a little thin for you. You probably want a mattress protector or pad on top of this and if you have a really thin one without wool or anything else that would be the best way to test this layering without what you feel being "interfered with" by a mattress pad but if you don't then the thinnest most pliable one you have would be the way to go. If it doesn't matter and it works for you then just sleeping on sheets over the cover itself would be great as it already has some wool in it. Hopefully what you feel with this will give us some clues about where to go next. I have a few ideas but I'll wait for your feedback for a night or two. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 3, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix I've been playing with this all morning (since before I saw your reply) and came up with some more info.
So in playing around today I decided to get back to basics and put the bed back to mostly the original sleepez parts; top to bottom:
This felt pretty good with just the mattress cover but I think that by the time the allergy cover and sheet go on the mem foam is a little too deep to work right and the bed feels significantly firmer. Of course I havent slept on this yet so I can't say for sure. My guess is I will find this to be too firm (since I did previously) but I want to start over and this seems like a good place to start. I don't want to do just the medium + soft + convo because I really don't like the feeling of the convo foam on top. I guess I could try the mem foam on top - essentially what I just set up minus 1 layer. Or should I just try this for a few nights? Thanks again! Steve PS - Did I see somewhere that you are in the Seattle area? I live in Redmond/Bellevue area... |
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Yes ... I would remove the medium talalay and either use the convoluted with the bumps down or the memory foam on top. Either one will give us a good place to start and I would just use the allergy cover with nothing else (except sheets of course). The advantage of the convoluted upside down is that it is closer to what I would think you need for a comfort layer. With just 1" of memory foam and the soft latex, you may feel the firmer layer underneath as the memory foam won't stop the sinking in ... and as you mentioned it may also feel harder with what's on top of it even though you would eventually sink through it anyway ... but either place would be a good beginning. The feeling you have with the convo on top may just be because you have too many relatively soft progressive layers and you get that "squishy" or "sliding" feeling overall. If it's the bumps, then upside down may help. If the feeling you are describing is what I think it is, then it's usually caused by deeper layers in a mattress. Adding a topper like the convo could still lead to this but what would be happening is the deeper layers would be responding differently and creating the feeling. It would be easy to think it was the topper (because that's when it was happening) rather than the thickness on top of the support layers changing which part of the support layers was supporting you and how they were "reacting". They would be less compressed and if they were not firm enough you would get this feeling. Whatever it is though ... it would be well worth testing. Yes ... when I'm in the US ... I'm in Gig Harbor near Tacoma. I'm currently in Canada though ... sigh. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 3, 2010 by Phoenix
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Just to add to the last post ... uncompressed foam has different characteristics than compressed foam. If two people lay on the same mattress and one of them compresses a support layer by 1/2" and the other one compresses a support layer by 1.5" ... the second one will feel a much more "stable" mattress and the first one could feel it was "jiggly". This is aggravated by firmer layers on top of softer layers (although this has it's uses too). This is part of the reason why different thicknesses of layers can make such a difference. Very often people believe that a change in feel they perceive is caused by what they just changed rather than how it changed how deeper layers were reacting. Every change in layering needs to take into account the probable effect on all the different layers in the mattress. Phoenix. This message was modified Dec 3, 2010 by Phoenix
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If you sink in as a side sleeper in the first 1/2 hour it feels comfortable, then you wake up 1-2 hours later would you say this is from being to soft, or too firm? Also if you sleep on your back and have no pain would you say this setup is firm enough? This is my dilemma and many folks here, maybe st3v3k4hn problem too. If it is comfortable for your back then your side sleeping suffers. This message was modified Dec 15, 2010 by Leo3
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I am guessing this is what is happening. When you first go to sleep there is some natural tension in your body which gradually disappears as you actually go to sleep and your body relaxes more. This means that if you are on the edge of what works when you go to sleep, you could end up with problems after you fall asleep and heavier parts sink more and the lumbar relaxes more. To support this tendency to sink in deeper, you either need to be on a compressed layer that has some ability left to compress more with more resistance or "move into" a firmer layer underneath that begins it's compression with more resistance. It looks like to me that your softer top layers are too thick and the problem is originating in the soft Dunlop layer ... possibly in combination with the 4" (fairly thick) top layer... and encouraged by any soft polyfoam on top of your mattress under the latex layers. You have 7" of softer latex over some foam over the springs which is also diminishing the ability of the springs to do their job of "keeping parts of you up" as you relax. This far below the upper layers ... and especially with this much soft latex (and probably some poly) over them ... the springs would tend to encourage hammocking more than they would support (this construction would only compress the "soft" part of the springs). Deeper layers don't have the same "point elasticity" as the upper layers because they are being compressed with an insulating layer between you and the layer itself and if they are too soft this can also lead to hammocking. The top layers of the mattress that all this is on are also a critical part of all of this as they would be acting as support layers even though they were designed as comfort layers. In general terms ... you can create a construction that works for side sleeping including as you relax more and also make it work for back sleeping. Stomach / side is a little more difficult to do without zoning. Latex (and even some polyfoam) has a wide progressive range of resistance (connected to sag factor) which means it has a range of sleeping positions it can support but each layer plays a different role in each position. To do this you have to have a sense of how far into each layer each position "bottoms out". Beyond this range you would likely need zoning. I would probably need to know other combinations you have tried and what happenned and a bit more about the springs and poly above them as well to be more specific but it looks to me in general terms like you need thinner overall layer(s) of soft on top ... possibly a thinner layer of firm below that (depending on the springs and what was already on them) or perhaps just a single softer layer directly on the mattress foam and springs. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 4, 2010 by Phoenix
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I posted this link in another thread but the chart on page 5 here illustrates some of what I mean http://www.pfa.org/intouch/pdf/ntouch51.pdf If you look at the 7" layer of 1.5 density 43 ILD with nothing on top you will see that it provides more pressure relief for certain parts of the body than much softer layered constructions. This is becasue of it's lower sag factor (allows more sinking in) than some of the softer higher sag factor foams. A lot of thought can go into understanding what is happening with the different constructions illustrated here and understanding "why" there are so many counterintuitive differences in pressure relief. This chart is for back sleeping as well which is "easier" than the greater differences in profile with side sleeping. If someone was using ILD alone to make their mattress with these materials, they would almost certainly have some "issues". Sag factor, and resiliency, and layer thickness plays a major role in mattress construction. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 4, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: I posted this link in another thread but the chart on page 5 here illustrates some of what I mean http://www.pfa.org/intouch/pdf/ntouch51.pdf If you look at the 7" layer of 1.5 density 43 ILD with nothing on top you will see that it provides more pressure relief for certain parts of the body than much softer layered constructions. This is becasue of it's lower sag factor (allows more sinking in) than some of the softer higher sag factor foams. A lot of thought can go into understanding what is happening with the different constructions illustrated here and understanding "why" there are so many counterintuitive differences in pressure relief. This chart is for back sleeping as well which is "easier" than the greater differences in profile with side sleeping. If someone was using ILD alone to make their mattress with these materials, they would almost certainly have some "issues". Sag factor, and resiliency, and layer thickness plays a major role in mattress construction. Phoenix I sent you a PM with long list of what I have done in terms of layering. |
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LONG list is right (laughing). It'll take me a while to look through it and see if I can see some patterns. Two quick questions ... Could you check your underlying mattress by laying or sitting on it and moving around a bit and pressing on it in different places to see if it seems like it is consistently firm throughout. In your PM your second layout was this: 3/3/09 Firm Dunlop latex, 1" Natura pad. No hip pain, no shoulder pain, legs good, no back pain. It didn't say what happened to cause you to change this. Can you remember why you changed this one? Phoenix |
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Phoenix wrote: Yes ... I would remove the medium talalay and either use the convoluted with the bumps down or the memory foam on top. Either one will give us a good place to start and I would just use the allergy cover with nothing else (except sheets of course). Well I didn't have time to check this yesterday so I slept on the config I described (mf over soft over med over med, no toppers). It felt pretty firm but I fell asleep ok. However I woke at 4 feeling soreness in my shoulders from side sleeping. Got up for a while and when I went back to sleep I think I mostly slept on my back. Have a bit of a backache this morning, which is unusual (in the past thats been a sign of too many soft layers, but I dont think it means that here?). I think Leo's points are valid; I tend to sleep on my back and side, want things really soft for side sleeping but probably need things a bit firmer for back sleeping. I also have another problem - altho I've only had the foam a few years it definitely feels softer to me in the hip area and harder at the middle and edges where no one sleeps. Maybe this is because I am heavy (230-ish) but it seems to be true even on my wife's side. So I hesitate to buy more really soft foam because I don't know how well it will last. Anyway, given that these 4 layers felt too firm, do I really want to try just 3? My wife can sleep on almost anything but she gets pretty tired of me ripping things apart all the time, and I don't know that she would sleep on a loosely filled 7" mattress. Thx again... |