| i have a sleepez bed that I keep trying to soften by adding more layers of foam in the case. So I now have 4.5 layers in a case meant for 3 layers. The case still zips, but I wonder if I am compressing the foam so much that it is affecting the feel. I have talalay latex, which always felt springy to me, but I am wondering if this made it more springy? Or if this is bad for the foam? |
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If you sink in as a side sleeper in the first 1/2 hour it feels comfortable, then you wake up 1-2 hours later would you say this is from being to soft, or too firm? Also if you sleep on your back and have no pain would you say this setup is firm enough? This is my dilemma and many folks here, maybe st3v3k4hn problem too. If it is comfortable for your back then your side sleeping suffers. This message was modified Dec 15, 2010 by Leo3
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I am guessing this is what is happening. When you first go to sleep there is some natural tension in your body which gradually disappears as you actually go to sleep and your body relaxes more. This means that if you are on the edge of what works when you go to sleep, you could end up with problems after you fall asleep and heavier parts sink more and the lumbar relaxes more. To support this tendency to sink in deeper, you either need to be on a compressed layer that has some ability left to compress more with more resistance or "move into" a firmer layer underneath that begins it's compression with more resistance. It looks like to me that your softer top layers are too thick and the problem is originating in the soft Dunlop layer ... possibly in combination with the 4" (fairly thick) top layer... and encouraged by any soft polyfoam on top of your mattress under the latex layers. You have 7" of softer latex over some foam over the springs which is also diminishing the ability of the springs to do their job of "keeping parts of you up" as you relax. This far below the upper layers ... and especially with this much soft latex (and probably some poly) over them ... the springs would tend to encourage hammocking more than they would support (this construction would only compress the "soft" part of the springs). Deeper layers don't have the same "point elasticity" as the upper layers because they are being compressed with an insulating layer between you and the layer itself and if they are too soft this can also lead to hammocking. The top layers of the mattress that all this is on are also a critical part of all of this as they would be acting as support layers even though they were designed as comfort layers. In general terms ... you can create a construction that works for side sleeping including as you relax more and also make it work for back sleeping. Stomach / side is a little more difficult to do without zoning. Latex (and even some polyfoam) has a wide progressive range of resistance (connected to sag factor) which means it has a range of sleeping positions it can support but each layer plays a different role in each position. To do this you have to have a sense of how far into each layer each position "bottoms out". Beyond this range you would likely need zoning. I would probably need to know other combinations you have tried and what happenned and a bit more about the springs and poly above them as well to be more specific but it looks to me in general terms like you need thinner overall layer(s) of soft on top ... possibly a thinner layer of firm below that (depending on the springs and what was already on them) or perhaps just a single softer layer directly on the mattress foam and springs. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 4, 2010 by Phoenix
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I posted this link in another thread but the chart on page 5 here illustrates some of what I mean http://www.pfa.org/intouch/pdf/ntouch51.pdf If you look at the 7" layer of 1.5 density 43 ILD with nothing on top you will see that it provides more pressure relief for certain parts of the body than much softer layered constructions. This is becasue of it's lower sag factor (allows more sinking in) than some of the softer higher sag factor foams. A lot of thought can go into understanding what is happening with the different constructions illustrated here and understanding "why" there are so many counterintuitive differences in pressure relief. This chart is for back sleeping as well which is "easier" than the greater differences in profile with side sleeping. If someone was using ILD alone to make their mattress with these materials, they would almost certainly have some "issues". Sag factor, and resiliency, and layer thickness plays a major role in mattress construction. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 4, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: I posted this link in another thread but the chart on page 5 here illustrates some of what I mean http://www.pfa.org/intouch/pdf/ntouch51.pdf If you look at the 7" layer of 1.5 density 43 ILD with nothing on top you will see that it provides more pressure relief for certain parts of the body than much softer layered constructions. This is becasue of it's lower sag factor (allows more sinking in) than some of the softer higher sag factor foams. A lot of thought can go into understanding what is happening with the different constructions illustrated here and understanding "why" there are so many counterintuitive differences in pressure relief. This chart is for back sleeping as well which is "easier" than the greater differences in profile with side sleeping. If someone was using ILD alone to make their mattress with these materials, they would almost certainly have some "issues". Sag factor, and resiliency, and layer thickness plays a major role in mattress construction. Phoenix I sent you a PM with long list of what I have done in terms of layering. |
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LONG list is right (laughing). It'll take me a while to look through it and see if I can see some patterns. Two quick questions ... Could you check your underlying mattress by laying or sitting on it and moving around a bit and pressing on it in different places to see if it seems like it is consistently firm throughout. In your PM your second layout was this: 3/3/09 Firm Dunlop latex, 1" Natura pad. No hip pain, no shoulder pain, legs good, no back pain. It didn't say what happened to cause you to change this. Can you remember why you changed this one? Phoenix |
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Phoenix wrote: Yes ... I would remove the medium talalay and either use the convoluted with the bumps down or the memory foam on top. Either one will give us a good place to start and I would just use the allergy cover with nothing else (except sheets of course). Well I didn't have time to check this yesterday so I slept on the config I described (mf over soft over med over med, no toppers). It felt pretty firm but I fell asleep ok. However I woke at 4 feeling soreness in my shoulders from side sleeping. Got up for a while and when I went back to sleep I think I mostly slept on my back. Have a bit of a backache this morning, which is unusual (in the past thats been a sign of too many soft layers, but I dont think it means that here?). I think Leo's points are valid; I tend to sleep on my back and side, want things really soft for side sleeping but probably need things a bit firmer for back sleeping. I also have another problem - altho I've only had the foam a few years it definitely feels softer to me in the hip area and harder at the middle and edges where no one sleeps. Maybe this is because I am heavy (230-ish) but it seems to be true even on my wife's side. So I hesitate to buy more really soft foam because I don't know how well it will last. Anyway, given that these 4 layers felt too firm, do I really want to try just 3? My wife can sleep on almost anything but she gets pretty tired of me ripping things apart all the time, and I don't know that she would sleep on a loosely filled 7" mattress. Thx again... |
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Anyway, given that these 4 layers felt too firm, do I really want to try just 3? Yes please (smiling). And preferably with the convoluted latex on top. Since you would not be bottoming out onto your base with 4 layers, the "firmness" is coming from an inside layer. It's always best and easiest to find a simple reference point first and work from there. This more simple beginning point will do a lot to help decide where to go from there. I'm "targeting" certain layers to gain information. Before we start, are you sure your wife will be OK with this as we will likely be making a few changes to test effects over the next week or so. I would suggest trying each layering scheme for 2 nights unless it is so uncomfortable that you can't go to sleep on it. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 4, 2010 by Phoenix
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on another thread. This message was modified Dec 15, 2010 by Leo3
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OK ... thanks. "I am sure I started out with 1" then 2", then 3", etc. etc. toppers. When I had less I believe I had back pain." This is also really helpful information as it "points to" a thinner layer being fine for your hips, but we need to make sure it is supportive (has enough resilience) to fill in the small of your back. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 4, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: Anyway, given that these 4 layers felt too firm, do I really want to try just 3? Yes please (smiling). And preferably with the convoluted latex on top. Since you would not be bottoming out onto your base with 4 layers, the "firmness" is coming from an inside layer. It's always best and easiest to find a simple reference point first and work from there. This more simple beginning point will do a lot to help decide where to go from there. I'm "targeting" certain layers to gain information. Before we start, are you sure your wife will be OK with this as we will likely be making a few changes to test effects over the next week or so. I would suggest trying each layering scheme for 2 nights unless it is so uncomfortable that you can't go to sleep on it. OK, I'll try it. The big problem is what to do with the discarded layers and toppers. Right now they are on the floor in our room; thats the part wifey hates the most... By the way, just read the link on poly foams. Interesting, altho difficult to fully understand. On the chart, I assume lower is better? I've always liked the feel of poly foam (ie my couch) more than latex (ie my bed) but worried that poly foams just weren't durable enough for bedding (esp given my weight). Maybe thats not true, and a poly layer would help? |