| i have a sleepez bed that I keep trying to soften by adding more layers of foam in the case. So I now have 4.5 layers in a case meant for 3 layers. The case still zips, but I wonder if I am compressing the foam so much that it is affecting the feel. I have talalay latex, which always felt springy to me, but I am wondering if this made it more springy? Or if this is bad for the foam? |
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OK ... this is interesting and really informative because we have a direct comparison and difference. With the convo and the soft Talalay on the floor, you noticed hip and butt pressure ... different from the "norm". Your shoulders "seemed" ok (for the short time you were on it) With the same convo and soft Talalay on the firmest Dunlop setup we could manage, the pressure issues had shifted to your shoulders. In the first one, the floor "stopped" your lower body cold but probably made no difference in how far your shoulders sank in so you were probably in better alignment ... even though this alignment caused hip issues. In the second one, you were able to sink in with your hips enough that there wasn't the same pressure there but this probably caused you to sink in too far and put you out of alignment. This could create a perception of too much pressure on your shoulders (they "wanted" to sink in more to keep up with the hips but couldn't). It seems to me that the shoulder pressure is a phenomenon you feel that is "relative" to the hips. This difference between the two constructions is telling me what I suspected which is "too firm" on top and "too soft" underneath. More the too soft underneath part. There are a couple of "consructions" using what you have that may alter this a bit ... whether they get to "perfection" or not I don't know. The first option is to put the soft Talalay over the convo over one layer of Dunlop (convo under the talalay so it doesn't bunch up with direct pressure and stays more even). This would give us something "in between" the floor and what you have now but it would only be 7.5" and wouldn't fill your case (calling the convo 1.5). This would give you the "firmest" support layer that was possible without killing your hips on a floor. It would also be worthwhile if you are changing layers to do a "floor" experiment with soft Talalay over medium dunlop. Surprisingly this could work better than what it may seem although it may be a little on the thin side (you would have most of the talalay and a bit of the dunlop which would be "acting" soft). I would use the Dunlop label up (hopefully soft side) for this one. The second option would be to use the memory foam under the 3" soft talalay over the firm dunlop. This would also be "thin" and I'm not sure how the memory foam would react with this much on top of it. I suspect it would start off a little firm feeling but would slowly "soften" as you lay on it longer. It would probably depend on the type of memory foam and your experience with this would say more than any "theory" about what it might do. A "floor" experiment with this wouldn't help as much because the memory foam would take some time to get to it's final "softness". If either of these improved the situation, then it would be a matter of finding something to "fill up" your case that didn't let you sink in. The other options after this would be about changing the feel using what was on top (wool, cuddle bed etc). If this next step was to help with the shoulders, then the feel could be "adjusted" using what was on top. At least it seems we know how to "shift" the issues from your shoulders to your hips and I believe we have a much clearer "handle" on what is probably happening. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 14, 2010 by Phoenix
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I was giving some thought to your question about what I would have done with a one sided construction because I didn't really go there once I decided that 2 sided was the way to go. The first thing it would have changed was the "cushiness" of my quilting. The only reason I felt sort of "safe" using it was because flipping the mattress can help with the depressions that would likely develop over time using this. The material used (quiltable latex and the "down alternative") are more resistant to compression sets than most but it could still be an issue over time. I really liked the feel of constructions like this in my field testing which is why I wanted to include it in spite of the risk. I do like to "sink in" a bit but not into "sand". So without that the rest would change a bit as well. I would likely have used a similar comfort layer perhaps slightly softer and the same thickness. I would have used a firmer middle layer (probably around 32 and perhaps even more) and probably as firm a bottom layer as I could. I would also have seriously considered a 6" firmer core (not 2 x 3" layers) under the 3" comfort layer. I would have been trying for "good alignment" with less sinking in and a less "cushy" feel. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 14, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: OK ... this is interesting and really informative because we have a direct comparison and difference. I've been gone all day and so I won't have time to try the configs you mentioned. But some more data. The bed with the convo foam and wool topper over the mattress was way too firm, hardly slept at all. Finally removed the wool topper at like 4 am and I think that felt pretty good, got a few hours sleep at least. Will try again tonite. The convo foam over the mattress (as a topper) definitely felt softer to me than the convo foam in the mattress... |
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It will be interesting to see how the next step goes. If you can, I would consider using the most flexible pad on top that you can find just to get the maximum sinking in for your shoulders that we can, especially considering that you could notice a difference. Slaap Lekker (Dutch for sleep well) Phoenix |
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Phoenix wrote: It will be interesting to see how the next step goes. If you can, I would consider using the most flexible pad on top that you can find just to get the maximum sinking in for your shoulders that we can, especially considering that you could notice a difference. made things feel firmer. I think the 2" foam is too much to add (also its "softness" is suspect as its from FBM). So I can try the MF (would have to be under the convo foam). Or I can start looking for new? Suggestions for new soft topper? BTW I helped my son move yesterday so I'm just crazy sore; need to wait a little bit before deciding if any of this is bed-related :-) Steve |
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Have you already tried (from top to botttom) 3" soft Talalay Convoluted 3" Dunlop If you have I'm sorry I missed it but this was the one I thought you didn't have the time to try. This is also the one I would test without the middle convo layer on the floor if you are re-arranging anyway. By "flexible pad" I was meaning the mattress pad itself. If you have a blanket or something that was "elastic" that you could try for one night then this would help to see how big an effect the wool pad is having. The memory foam "options" would be after this set of options. Phoenix PS: I am thinking we are likely much closer with this option than we have been with any of the others. This message was modified Dec 16, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: Have you already tried (from top to botttom) 3" soft Talalay Convoluted 3" Dunlop If you have I'm sorry I missed it but this was the one I thought you didn't have the time to try. This is also the one I would test without the middle convo layer on the floor if you are re-arranging anyway. By "flexible pad" I was meaning the mattress pad itself. If you have a blanket or something that was "elastic" that you could try for one night then this would help to see how big an effect the wool pad is having. The memory foam "options" would be after this set of options. Phoenix PS: I am thinking we are likely much closer with this option than we have been with any of the others. No, sorry, I havent tried that combo yet. I'm going to wait for the soreness to go away before trying anything else. I guess I was confused by the flexible pad comment. I'm actually not using any sort of mattress pad at the moment; just the latex, the mattress cover (which is the standard Sleepez quilted cover), the conv. foam and the sheets. I guess thats why I tried the wool topper (which is really intended to be a mattress pad) but as I said that makes things too firm (its possible the wool could be fluffed up somehow, we havent done anything like that since we got it). I don't even think I have any "normal" mattress pads. Do you think that might help? I don't think I understand your comments about the "elastic" blanket or pad... |
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By "elastic" I meant a pad of some kind (like a really stretchable blanket) over the mattress that would allow you to sink in with a "pointy part" more easily than a wool pad. I thought you were using a wool pad which is why the suggestion. The "bare latex" would be best of all although you are already on wool anyway with the sleepez cover and this would also lessen the ability to sink in with a "pointy part" (what the other post called "bony prominences") like your shoulders. Phoenix PS: This is the layering I was hoping to start with (except at the beginning I had suggested the convo on top instead of in the middle). I really do think that a single Dunlop is the "foundation" you will need as it is the firmest you have and that above this it's just a matter of getting to the right comfort layers on top of this without making them too thick and putting you out of alignment. A "middle" layer between comfort and support layers with what you have will probably always cause problems. This message was modified Dec 16, 2010 by Phoenix
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Just to give you a sense of "where I am going" ... here is the general progression of what I am thinking (regarding foam layers and not counting any refinements that can come from pads or reversing layers). All of them are on a single 3" layer of Dunlop. First = 3" Dunlop under 4.5" Talalay (counting the convo as 1.5). Convo on top would allow slightly more sinking in but it "bunches" and you are not as comfortable with the feel which is why I'm suggesting it in the middle for the first try. Second = Convo over the talalay. I know this may not feel as good but it this "nails" it then you could always get a thin topper to replace it. Third = Memory foam under 3" Talalay. This is a little more "unknown" as how it reacts would depend on the type of memory foam. If the foam "melts" under you then this could be a good combination as you would have 4" of soft over the soft very top of the Dunlop. What I do like about this is that it would only be a 4" comfort layer and with the convo there is still a danger that the comfort layer is too thick and could put you out of alignment. Fourth = Memory foam over 3" Talalay. Waiting with this because I know you don't like sleeping on memory foam even though it may work well. Fifth = Thin firm layers in between using what you have available in the house. Sixth = Zoning using what you have. This would almost certainly solve your problems but it would involve cutting latex (which it seems you're already doing anyway lol) Five and Six are "interchangeable depending on the feedback that comes from 1-4. There is no doubt in my mind that the best possible solution is in these steps and the information we gain from them. Phoenix PS: I think we've pretty much ruled out the second Dunlop layer and none of these options involves using the medium Talalay as a single layer as I believe the odds are low (not zero) that it would help. While the medium Talalay may give you different "low odds" options from these, I would think it would be more appropriate to use it in the zoning step where it could come in very handy. This message was modified Dec 16, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: By "elastic" I meant a pad of some kind (like a really stretchable blanket) over the mattress that would allow you to sink in with a "pointy part" more easily than a wool pad. I thought you were using a wool pad which is why the suggestion. The "bare latex" would be best of all although you are already on wool anyway with the sleepez cover and this would also lessen the ability to sink in with a "pointy part" (what the other post called "bony prominences") like your shoulders. Phoenix OK I found a standard mattress pad that I added to the existing config to see if that changes things. I'll start testing the other stuff tomorrow. BTW, I posted a pic of the convo foam in the "can you cut latex?" thread. I think its pretty worn out and would be a problem even under the talalay. See what you think... Thanks again Steve |