| i have a sleepez bed that I keep trying to soften by adding more layers of foam in the case. So I now have 4.5 layers in a case meant for 3 layers. The case still zips, but I wonder if I am compressing the foam so much that it is affecting the feel. I have talalay latex, which always felt springy to me, but I am wondering if this made it more springy? Or if this is bad for the foam? |
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OK. I've reposted pretty much every configuration you have tried since the beginning (including the other thread) and my comments (additional to what I've already posted) underneath them. I think we are seeing a very clear pattern here which I'll post in another post after this one.... I still believe that the convo is poly ... or at least is acting like poly. Perhaps is SBR dunlop or something ... certainly not decent latex. WARNING: This is long because there were a lot of combinations although very few with decent support.
1. Well we just got the rest of the mattress on Friday - without the cover, apparently they are moving and the box with the cover got misplaced. So we built the bed without the cover and put our wool topper over it. I don't know if the cover will make a difference, but as is I would have to say it feels pretty firm. Maybe too firm - I'm not gonna decide based on 1 nite. I think in general SleepEZ is a little firmer than others, I don't know if thats a Talalay / Dunlop thing or just a SleepEZ vs others thing. Anyway, I don't even have a "Soft" layer - I have 2 mediums over a firm. My wife has a soft over medium over firm, and I think even her side feels too firm, but I haven't slept there. Shawn did say if things were too firm he could sell me the 1.4" soft Talalay topper and that it would fit into the cover (tight at first but would loosen up). So that may be an option. I would definitely talk to Shawn again before doing that tho - it may be that I could swap my firm for a medium or a soft and that might fix things for me. I will post back as things progress... Steve It's somewhat ironic that a soft talalay layer on top of two of these Dunlops may have been the best configuration of all for you. Clearly the medium Dunlop was too firm for you on the top but replacing this with a soft Talalay over the two bottom Dunlops I believe would have been pretty close. The 3" Talalay in combination with the top of a medium Dunlop would probably have given you enough "working thickness" in your comfort layers that it would have been pretty good in terms of pressure relief and it certainly would have been better for support in different positions than anything you have tried since.
2. I finally received the cover for my mattress. It is nice and soft and makes the latex a bit softer, but, even with my existing wool topper, I still feel like it needs another few inches of softness. I don't know if its because I got the Dunlop, but the latex to me does feel sort of jiggly and hard - as someone else said it feels like its pushing back. That doesn't surprise me, and I always felt that there was a good chance I would decide to add another top layer, to make the mattress more like what FloBeds offers. I checked with them and they do sell their convoluted latex topper, but its expensive ($350 for Cal King), so I decided to just try a poly foam convoluted topper (for about $90) to see how that works. I ordered that today from Foamorder.com (2.5", 2.0 density, 30 ILD). I'm hoping that does the trick. I will report back when I get the new topper... Mimi, let us know how your mattress experience is coming along! Steve This is where the convo came into the picture.
3. Yes, I received my convoluted foam topper a few nights ago. The SleepEZ mattress plus convoluted foam topper plus wool topper is feeling very good to my wife and me. Our bed is on a solid foundation, so I guess its possible that is why I thought it was too hard and you found it just right (on your box springs). At any rate, I am pretty happy. I've essentially built myself a "pillowtop" mattress with a very firm foundation that should last a long time (the SleepEZ mattress) and a softer top that I can change out as needed (for relatively cheap). I think its possible that as time goes on I will get more used to the latex and remove the pillowtop - for now its too big a change (coming from a Tempurpedic where you sink in to your eyeballs)... Steve The convo felt "very good" at first but this didn't seem to last. With this configuration you have 30 ILD on top which is "acting" a little softer because it's convoluted but it's poly so doesn't have the same "increasing resistance" as you sink in deeper. 24 ILD latex would start off softer but get firmer with compression so if you actually laid on it the poly convolute would let you sink in more but be more consistently soft as you compressed it. This is probably why 30 ILD felt OK.
4. The topper I ordered (from foamorder.com) was 2.5" thick convoluted poly foam, 30 ILD, and close to 2.0 density. I think the big difference is the density, cheaper foams are less dense and therefore don't last as long. But I don't think this will last more than a few years. I just wanted to test something for reasonably cheap (< $100). I put the Tempurpedic in a guest room. I didn't like it but a lot of people do, and guests seem eager to try it... Steve Confirms the "identity" of the convo topper. An @ 2.0 sag factor would mean it is reacting much differently than a 30 ILD latex of the same thickness.
5. I thought I would post an update, as its now been a few months and I think I've got things about as good as they are going to get. You can read back thru this thread for details, but essentially I bought a SleepEz 10000, cal king, 3 split layers. The original config was all dunlop latex, Med over Med over Firm for my side, and Soft over Med over Firm on my wife's side. My inital impression was that the bed was way too hard; my wife thought her side was ok, maybe a little too firm. I bought a few toppers to experiment with, but eventually decided I needed to swap a layer. After talking to SleepEZ (Shawn) I decided to get 2 pieces (1 layer) of Talalay Medium. Initially I put the Talalay Medium on top, with the 2 Dunlop mediums underneath. I actually found that to be a bit too squishy, so then I changed to Dunlop Medium over Talalay Medium over Dunlop Medium. By this time, my wife's opinion had gone from "maybe a little too firm" to "definitely too firm", so she decided to try the Talalay Medium in her stack too, going Dunlop Soft over Talalay Medium over Dunlop Medium. We also added one of the toppers (1" of memory foam) into the cover on the top layer of latex, and put a 1" wool topper on top of the actual mattress. So, we both ended up getting rid of our Firm layer, and we are both finding our new configurations to be pretty comfortable. One interesting thing to me was how much softer the Talalay was; I would say the Soft Dunlop and the Medium Talalay feel about the same. I would also say that, to me, latex just doesn't feel as comfortable as a really nice spring and foam bed. I would love to be able to recreate that cushy pillowtop feeling in a mattress that would last and provide proper support. But I suspect that I am about as close as I can get to that goal (knowing that most spring and foam mattresses and especially pillowtops just don't last very well). Another thing I wanted to mention is how cooperative SleepEZ (Shawn) have been. I called several times before I decided to swap layers. In fact, I was officially beyond the swap period when I finally asked him to swap. His only concern was making me happy and comfortable - no grief at all about swapping after 60 days. He also encouraged me to keep all the layers for a while after getting the new ones, so that I could play around more and make sure I was happy before deciding which layers to return. So overall, I am pretty happy with the comfort of the bed, and very happy with SleepEz. If the bed lasts as long as its supposed to I will be very happy indeed... Steve This is where you switched the Dunlop firm for a Talalay medium. Unfortunately it is likely you switched the wrong layers. It probably would have been way better to switch out a Dunlop medium for a Talalay soft and then done a progressive layering of firm dunlop under medium dunlop under soft talalay. This may not have been ideal but it would have been pretty close IMO and probably could have been fixed if necessary with a thin layer of either soft latex or memory foam.
6. Another update. Sean let me do a 2nd swap (at just cost of shipping) last week, 8 months after my initial purchase. Gotta hand it to SleepEz on that front... Quick summary. I bought my bed in June '08, all dunlop, medium and firms, always felt way too firm for me. Swapped a firm dunlop layer for a medium talalay layer in Sept, and swapped for another talalay layer (soft this time) last week. I'd been in contact with Sean by phone once a month or so during that time, telling him my issues and trying new solutions (switching layers, adding layers, deleting layers, etc). He told me to take my time and that he would do everything he could to make me happy and I have to say I'm impressed with his service and commitment. Unfortunately I still don't love the mattress, I guess I'm just not a latex guy, it just feels a bit weird and pushy to me. But the new layers (soft Talalay over med Talalay over med Dunlop) at least feel about right in terms of softness. And I definitely like the talalay better than the dunlop, its softer and more forgiving or something. It seems to be sleepable for me, but I still wake up stiff. So I don't think I will be buying latex again. But I just wanted to post this to let people know if you have a SleepEZ bed and you're not satisfied at least try and call them and see if they can do anything for you... Steve This switch gave you too much soft talalay and reduced the support possibilities even more (left us with only one 3" layer to use for support which doesn't really have the "range" for multiple positions). You are waking up stiff here which is probably alignment issues from soft layers that are too thick. It does confirm though that the sleepez thicker soft layer seems ok for pressure relief.
7. I wish I knew how to describe it. The bed feels nice and soft to me until I lay on it a while, then it feels too firm. It almost feels like its pushing up on me. I think the actual config is (from top to bottom):
all on top of the mattress. then, all in the mattress cover:
The reason for the crazy mixing is I started with 3 layers of dunlop and swapped 2 to talalay (which I definitely prefer to dunlop). Sleepez suggested dunlop because i am pretty heavy (like 240lbs) but the dunlop firm killed me. I kept trying to go softer, but even that stack i have now (2 meds, 2 softs) feels firm to me. Which is why I keep buying new layers to try and adding them. I've played with tons of different arrangements over the years, I added the cuddlebed pretty recently, I don't really think it helped much. I liked the conv foam but my wife hated it which is why its buried in the mattress. As you say, I probably should move the memory foam layer back up to the top, that seems to be the best thing for relieving the pressure points. I have to admit I thought the idea of a configurable bed was great at first, but now I sort of hate it. Wish I could just buy something that works and would last. This was where we started and the layering here is really "mixed up". There is a lot of 'stuff" on top which could give an initial "feel" of softness but end up firming up the latex underneath and reducing pressure relief. There is also way too much soft in the support layers (your support here is 30 ILD comvoluted poly acting soft ... over 22-24 ILD soft Talalay ... Over 30-32 medium talalay ... over medium dunlop) There is so much "thickness" in the support layers here (4 thick support layers) that the only one that had a decent chance of giving you decent support (Dunlop) was being masked by the 3 layers above it. At least this squishy support was itself squished into the cover which would firm it up slightly but that wouldn't be nearly enough to make any real difference. Worst of all is the first support layer under your comfort layer here is convoluted poly which in combination with what is over it and under it doesn't have nearly enough sag factor to do what it needs to in this configuration. This is also using the "firmer" foambymail soft Talalay (which could even be Dunlop since it came from foambymail) which would not be so good for pressure relief.
8. In the mattress I have: 3" soft talalay (foambymail?)
The convoluted foam is hi quality latex; I was trying to reproduce the FloBeds construction. But my wife said she could feel the "bumps" when I had it on top so I moved it down a layer. As I said originally the mattress case was designed to hold 3 3" layers so I wonder if I should remove a layer? The other layers are toppers I've tried at various times.
The config I am using now (the one that seems to work best for me) is the wool pad over the mem foam over the mattress. I wonder if a 1" piece of soft talalay might work better than the wool pad tho? Any other thoughts? Steve This configuration wouldn't work with any thickness over it. By itself it has 30ILD probable poly as a comfort layer and then support layers under this that are way too much soft. Anything 2" - 3" or more that you add over this would turn the poly and/or the soft latex (depending on the order of layering) into a support layer and cause alignment issues.
9. Phoenix I've been playing with this all morning (since before I saw your reply) and came up with some more info.
So in playing around today I decided to get back to basics and put the bed back to mostly the original sleepez parts; top to bottom:
This felt pretty good with just the mattress cover but I think that by the time the allergy cover and sheet go on the mem foam is a little too deep to work right and the bed feels significantly firmer. Of course I havent slept on this yet so I can't say for sure. My guess is I will find this to be too firm (since I did previously) but I want to start over and this seems like a good place to start. I don't want to do just the medium + soft + convo because I really don't like the feeling of the convo foam on top. I guess I could try the mem foam on top - essentially what I just set up minus 1 layer. Or should I just try this for a few nights? Thanks again! Steve PS - Did I see somewhere that you are in the Seattle area? I live in Redmond/Bellevue area... The fact that the convo is probably poly partly explains your comments here. The (unstable) feeling would have been aggravated by the softer middle layers as well. It is not dense enough to feel "stable". The layering with mem foam, soft talalay, medium talalay, medium dunlop would have been the first one that gave some accurate feedback although the medium talalay under the soft was still too soft as a support layer and would distort the results. The firm feeling here (when you pressed it because you hadn't actually tried it yet to test the deeper layers) is probably because of the wool over the memory foam. My reply "suggested" you remove the medium talalay but you didn't get a chance to read it so this was the "beginning" of meaningful information even though the medium talalay acting in a dual role could cause a "too firm" upper layer and a "too soft" support layer. You were somewhat "insistent"
10. Well I didn't have time to check this yesterday so I slept on the config I described (mf over soft over med over med, no toppers). It felt pretty firm but I fell asleep ok. However I woke at 4 feeling soreness in my shoulders from side sleeping. Got up for a while and when I went back to sleep I think I mostly slept on my back. Have a bit of a backache this morning, which is unusual (in the past thats been a sign of too many soft layers, but I dont think it means that here?). I think Leo's points are valid; I tend to sleep on my back and side, want things really soft for side sleeping but probably need things a bit firmer for back sleeping. I also have another problem - altho I've only had the foam a few years it definitely feels softer to me in the hip area and harder at the middle and edges where no one sleeps. Maybe this is because I am heavy (230-ish) but it seems to be true even on my wife's side. So I hesitate to buy more really soft foam because I don't know how well it will last. Anyway, given that these 4 layers felt too firm, do I really want to try just 3? My wife can sleep on almost anything but she gets pretty tired of me ripping things apart all the time, and I don't know that she would sleep on a loosely filled 7" mattress. Thx again... So this confirms that this layering was both too firm on top and too soft underneath as your shoulders couldn't sink in far enough and your back was sore. The shoulders may have been from alignment or from pressure while the back was almost certainly from alignment. An inch of memory foam over soft would probably act like a little over 3" (say 3.5) and this seems to be just below what you need.
11. OK, so my guests are gone and I can start experimenting now. Just out of curiousity tho, I took some photos of the last setup I had (which was a cuddlebed over a mem foam pad on top of mattress, upsidedown latex convo foam over soft talalay latex over med talalay latex over med dunlop latex). As you can see (I hope) from the photos, after 4 nights the cuddlebed completely hammocked around me - and thats one of my biggest beefs with mattresses - I hate sleeping in a depression. But when I peeled back the cuddlebed it also looks a little like the mem foam might be doing something similar - certainly its higher in the middle. The last 2 pictures are the mattress without any toppers and even it looks like its doing this slightly (probably the mattress cover and not the foam in the mattress)? The above config actually felt ok for a few nights, at least until the cuddlebed hammocked. Altho my back and shoulders are both a little sore. I think tonite I will just remove the cuddlebed and try the mem foam over the mattress alone... http://s1025.photobucket.com/albums/y311/st3v3k4hn/sleepez/ The " hammocking" of the cuddlebed and the memory foam would have been because the layers underneath were so soft that you were "pushing" them too deep into the mattress (they were on top of convo poly, then soft and medium talalay). You're still "resisting"
12. Well we have an allergy cover and a "fitted" sheet but both are designed to fit up to 18" mattresses so they are loose. I usually tuck them in but don't worry about that while I am rearranging. As I said I had a cuddlebed and a 1" memory foam topper on the mattress, just removed the cuddlebed. Thinking I'll leave the memory foam because altho I hated a thick mem foam mattress the 1" layer does seem to help with pressure points. I removed some layers to reduce the compression in the mattress and now have the following layers inside the mattress cover:
Still too soft in the support layers but figured we may as well test this out. It would act like about 4.5" + memory foam (total around 5") in the comfort layers but any results here would again be distorted with the medium talalay under. Comfort layers with the inch of memory over this would still be 5" plus ... still too thick. 13. OK, well I forgot how much I hate sleeping directly on memory foam (its ok under a layer, like under my wool topper). Slept for an hour or 2 and woke up stiff and uncomfortable and sunk thru the foam. Removed it and spent the rest of the night on just the mattress. Slept ok the rest of the night. Stiff this morning but willing to try again. Or would you prefer I remove the middle medium talalay and try that tonite? Confirming that both the comfort layers are too thick and support layers are too soft. In this config, soft/medium talalay is your primary support. Now I'm hopeful that at this point we can get rid of the "darn" medium Talalay. But as it turns out .... 14. OK, I tried the latex directly on the floor experiment, here are the results. First I'd like to note that these layers are actually a bit less than 3" - I think thats standard and you know that, but I just wanted to be very clear. Also, the conv foam is roughly 1/2" in the valleys and close to 2.5 at the tops. Finally, I always put the foam label-side up - dont know if that matters. So, putting the soft talalay on the floor with the conv foam on top (flat side up) and just a thin quilt on top:
Since I felt like I was hitting bottom I decided to remove the conv foam and add another regular soft talalay layer. I expected a big difference but honestly it didnt feel that different to me; maybe I didn't bottom out on my back, but it felt very similar. So I added the conv foam on top of that. That finally felt like I could sleep on my side (no real pain, but maybe too soft on by back??? would need to sleep a few nights to tell for sure). So I put the bed back with the 2 softs on my side and the 2 mediums on my (wonderful and long-suffering) wife's side (pls don't tell her).  I don't actually think I ever tried this before because I always tried to keep the bed "even" (same layers on each side). I realize that this may be a terrible configuration, but I had to put something back and wanted to try something new! By the way, I slept the previous few nights on just the mattress (med dunlop, med tal, soft tal, conv foam) with no toppers. In this congifuration its my shoulders that ache the most (sometimes my hips hurt a bit but not usually). Also my back feels pretty stiff. So, thats that. What do you think? Thanks again Steve So just when I was hoping we would be testing with some support (3" Dunlop) the support we are testing turns out to be soft/medium talalay again  On the floor at least, we get to start testing comfort layers without the "distortion" of the medium talalay. Knowing now that what you had on top of the soft talalay was polyfoam (IMO), this would do more to explain the bottoming out (poly has less support as it compresses) and could also explain the "wierd" feeling. It would have filled in the gap under your lumbar and the soft latex on the floor would have been "pushing back" even through the poly which would have had some as well so this also may have caused the "wierd" feeling. The good news here as I commented on in the original thread is that the pressure shifted from shoulders to hips indicating that the shoulders may be sinking in enough and that the hips are more in alignment even though they are "bottoming out". The two soft talalay layers would feel different and similar because the talalay is softer but gets firmer faster than the poly. This would also explain why you didn't "bottom out" as much. With the 3 layers (3" soft 2" soft, convo), you wouldn't feel "bottomed out" at all so this would "feel" softer as you would sink in deeper on your side but in actual fact the softness would be about the same even though the "feeling" was different. This would also give a good indication that the ILD of your two sleepez layers (assuming the soft talalay were both 1/2 layers of the sleepez) was pretty close to what you need. Maybe slightly higher. In sleeping all night on the 4 layers, either the convo would not allow as much sinking in (again I'm assuming it is the 30 poly which it certainly is acting like) so the shoulder soreness could be from both misalignment (poor support in this layering) or actual pressure. Still back is ... not unexpectedly in this layering ... misalignment. 15. Regarding my current situation, I do have 2 medium dunlops and can use of them (wife can sleep on almost anything). So maybe I should try them under the soft talalay + the conv foam? I won't try this tonight as I want to try the "soft" setup (altho I suspect it may be too soft and hurt my back)... Steve So it seems like we need to start with a medium of some kind ... any kind ... even though I'm not hopeful. I'm thinking that just maybe 2 Dunlops with the firm side up might work ... So I respond "I would certainly try the 2 Dunlops under the Talalay and see how that goes (after your "soft" experiment)." I'm thinking we can firm up the bottom incrementally and at least the 2 Dunlops is better than the Dunlop/Talalay. 16. The labels are on top or bottom (not on the side) So the label side is the soft side? And you want me to setup my mattress:
Just checking. Also should I change my wife's side to put the labels down? By the way, last night's config caused more back problems, definitely not enough support... Still can't get you to get rid of a "medium" layer at this point but at least the dunlop is a step in the "firmer" direction. The 2 soft talalay on top back pain only confirms what we already know.
17. OK, after 2 nights on the double-dunlop side, I can't say I tell much of a difference. My shoulders still feel pressure, I even found myself sleeping on my stomach a bit (I assume because other positions weren't feeling good). I think my wife's side (all talalay) feels a bit softer, but its pretty close. I was bothered last nite by a lump in the middle of the mattress and so I opened it up and sure enough the convo foam had bunched up inside the cover. So I decided to take it out (reducing foam compression even more, hoping to make it a little softer) and, upon inspection, I can see that it is compressing where we sleep, and firmer/higher in the middle and on the edges. I wasn't really sure what to do so I zipped the mattress cover with just the sleepez foam in it and put the convo foam on top. Then, since I don't have a cover for it, and to maybe hide the unevenness a bit, I put my thin (1") wool topper over it. So thats how it is right now, but I can still see and feel the compressions in the convo foam. And I still don't know if it feels soft enough (definitely not near that pillow top experience)... 2 medium layers is the problem here. Still no firm layer under for support.
18. I've been gone all day and so I won't have time to try the configs you mentioned. But some more data. The bed with the convo foam and wool topper over the mattress was way too firm, hardly slept at all. Finally removed the wool topper at like 4 am and I think that felt pretty good, got a few hours sleep at least. Will try again tonite. The convo foam over the mattress (as a topper) definitely felt softer to me than the convo foam in the mattress... It seems that wool over the convo is too firm. Confirms previous findings.
19. OK Phoenix, I got around to testing some of these today. But right off the bat, the weird convo foam was making it so hard to judge (because it felt really different as I moved along it) that I decided to ditch it and use the other 2" soft latex. I'm pretty sure its not great quality, I think its from FBM, and it feels a little firmer to me than the convo foam or the sleepez foam, but at least its reasonably consistent. So first thing I tried was just the sleepez soft tal over the med dunlop. Surprisingly this didn't feel terrible to me - certainly better than the 2 soft talalays felt. It definitely caused pressure, again mostly on my hips; and it made me feel like I was rolling a bit; hard to explain but didn't feel stable? Anyway as I said not bad, although definitely not sleepable. So then I tried the FBM latex over that and - for the 5 minutes I was on it, it felt pretty good. Definitely sunk in enough on my back, shoulders I think I need to sleep on it to tell. Since the FBM is thinner I thought maybe its better on top, even if its a bit firmer? So I didn't try it under the sleepez foam, even tho i suspect that layer is much better quality. So unless you see something wrong with this plan I thought I would sleep on this tonite (med dun, soft tal, 2" soft tal from FBM, mattress cover, mattress pad) and see how I feel in the morning. I suspect it will end up feeling too firm, but we can see. In the meantime, it really seems like I need to order a high quality soft topper - any suggestions? (I live in Seattle area is you know of any local places, otherwise pls suggest mail order)... Making some progress on top but still 2 Dunlop under (probably still too soft). In retrospect the 2" talalay over 2 dunlops was probably a better choice for testing and I was glad you switched here. The hip pressure was probably a function of the top 2" talalay being firmer than the sleepez. My next suggestion is ... Have you already tried (from top to botttom) 3" soft Talalay Convoluted 3" Dunlop If you have I'm sorry I missed it but this was the one I thought you didn't have the time to try. This is also the one I would test without the middle convo layer on the floor if you are re-arranging anyway. Also posted "steps" 1-6 for the order of what was coming.
20. OK Phoenix, I got around to testing some of these today. But right off the bat, the weird convo foam was making it so hard to judge (because it felt really different as I moved along it) that I decided to ditch it and use the other 2" soft latex. I'm pretty sure its not great quality, I think its from FBM, and it feels a little firmer to me than the convo foam or the sleepez foam, but at least its reasonably consistent. So first thing I tried was just the sleepez soft tal over the med dunlop. Surprisingly this didn't feel terrible to me - certainly better than the 2 soft talalays felt. It definitely caused pressure, again mostly on my hips; and it made me feel like I was rolling a bit; hard to explain but didn't feel stable? Anyway as I said not bad, although definitely not sleepable. So then I tried the FBM latex over that and - for the 5 minutes I was on it, it felt pretty good. Definitely sunk in enough on my back, shoulders I think I need to sleep on it to tell. Since the FBM is thinner I thought maybe its better on top, even if its a bit firmer? So I didn't try it under the sleepez foam, even tho i suspect that layer is much better quality. So unless you see something wrong with this plan I thought I would sleep on this tonite (med dun, soft tal, 2" soft tal from FBM, mattress cover, mattress pad) and see how I feel in the morning. I suspect it will end up feeling too firm, but we can see. In the meantime, it really seems like I need to order a high quality soft topper - any suggestions? (I live in Seattle area is you know of any local places, otherwise pls suggest mail order)... I was hoping for the convo in between here but at least we got step 2 instead. With just the 3" over the Dunlop it seemed we were "not terrible" but too thin on top. Good news. Rolling feeling was probably from too little a "cradle" over firm. 2" + 3" sounds promising but probably a little thick. At this point I'm still assuming it's soft.
21. OK so after 1 night on this config (3" med dunlop under 3" soft tal under 2" "soft" tal) I am even more confused... It didn't feel great to me, but it didn't feel bad either, and I slept pretty well. Definitely didn't have the "soft cushy" feel I would like, and I really didn't like sitting on the bed as it felt like it bottomed out that way. But when lying in bed, I didn't feel that, and although I felt some pressure on my shoulders and ribs it wasn't too bad. My back hurts a bit but thats been ongoing so I can't tell if this config had anything to do with that. So, can you make some sense from that? OK ... finally we get to try a firm support layer
22. Whats really weird is, this is essentially the same as a previous config I tried except that time the top layer was a 3" soft tal piece from SleepEz and this time its a 2" piece from FBM (which may be firmer that the sleepez piece). And that config definitely felt too soft. The difference is the support layers and the fact that the 3" soft over 2" soft would likely be softer. The difference in support layers would make this setup very different feeling
I'm happy you're enjoying this :). I am too. You get the hard part of actually doing all the re-arranging and I get to be the "peanut gallery" (laughing). The memory foam would be instead of the FBM and would go under the soft sleepez. This would give you about 4" of comfort layering which in terms of thickness should be about right for you in "theoretical" terms (and so far confirmed by your feedback). What's in that 4" is the trick. 23. OK, so I swapped the FBM foam and the sleepez foam last night, didn't feel much of a difference. I didn't sleep as well last night but I think that's more due to the bad cold I picked up. I'm concerned about using just the mem foam with the 2 sleepez layers. My mem foam is on the cheaper, thinner, meltier side. Maybe 1" tops, and you pretty much sink right thru it. I think it would pretty much like sleeping on just those 2 layers, and I think thats a bit hard. But, again, I'll try it if it really tells us something. Altho I'd rather try the 3 sleepez layers with the mem foam on top Steve There you go again trying to sneak an extra layer in (laughing). I would like to have tested this (2" medium FBM under 3" soft Sleepez) for another night or two without the "bad cold" interfering with perception. In theory this should have been better than the 2" FBM over the 3" sleepez although it may not have been a huge difference. This layering and the next one are probably the closest we will get with just a 3" support layer. Another night or two feedback with this one would have really helped in deciding if the 2 "soft" talalay are soft enough for you or if you need a softer layer to replace the 2" FBM.
24. OK, well maybe it wasn't as bad as I feared it might be, but it was definitely too firm. It was best on my back, and I think I slept most of the night in that position. I tried sleeping on my side and I'm sure I did for a while but that definitely got old fast. On the plus side I actually liked that it was less bouncy than the 14" I had on a month ago :-) This was really helpul. Since the memory foam is "acting" like less than an inch and it was only a "not so bad" this confirms that 4" is pretty close (3.5 is not quite enough). The side sleeping pain is a function of a firm support layer not being thick enough to accomodate different positions (IE side sleeping) as it gets firm too quickly.
OK ... I'll make some "overall" comments in my next post but we have some clear patterns. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 23, 2010 by Phoenix
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on keeping the medium talalay in the layering so I figured it would be easier to start with 4 layers.|
So in looking at what we've done, the picture is getting pretty clear. I wish we could have tried the Dunlop under the 2" FBM talalay (treating as medium) under the 3" soft sleepez for an extra night or so as the results here were skewed with your cold. and a couple of nights on this could have been helpful. The other thing I wish we'd tried (even though it is sort of worn out and you went to step 2) was the convo under the soft sleepez talalay. With the 2" + 3' of latex over the Dunlop we would have been a little over in the comfort layers but not much and it would have been interesting to see how the "pressure/support" combination worked out. I may have "taken the edge" off the 3" dunlop for side sleeping. With the convo under the talalay (bumps up), you would have had comfort layers that were "acting" more like 4.5 or so and this may have been even closer. Would have been interesting to see how you sank into this and then "translate" it into layers without the convo. These 2 seem to be "just over" what you need in comfort layers. The 3" soft latex with the memory foam under seems on the other hand to be "just under" what you need for comfort as it would be acting like about 3.5. With all this we seem to have framed your comfort needs to about 4" of soft talalay. Whether the 5" would work or not remains to be seen (if you're willing to try this for a night or two with no "interfering cold". In terms of support, all the results were much clearer when we got to a single 3" layer of Dunlop. This is clearly not thick enough to have a big enough range for changing positions but it is clear that overall it is the best support option we could have used for testing. This is indicating that a 6" support layer of around 40-44 Talalay may do very well for you or even a 6" layer of firm Dunlop with soft side up. We can certainly try some simple zoning using the convo it you want to test this (it would be an ideal way to test zoning as you don't mind cutting it and you could use the most consistent part of it). So where I would go now to get the most accurate feedback is to test the two closest layering schemes that we didn't fully test and then go to zoning if necessary. So ... First: Dunlop under 2" FBM "talalay" under 3" sleepez talalay with as thin and flexible a pad over this as you can (avoiding wool in the encasement and wool pad over this). Because I suspect the 2" layer is firmer talalay or even dunlop, it may only have about 1" of softness and may give you a slightly thicker support layer as well as be quite close to a decent comfort layer. Could act as a "dual role" layer. Only tested for a night under he influence of a cold. Second: Dunlop under Convo bumps up (middle layering would dampen somewhat it's inconsistencies) under 3" sleepez talalay again with as thin and flexible a pad as you can. Not tested at all Third: 2 zones using the convo in the upper part and the soft talalay in the lower part 2" FBM talalay over Dunlop with thin pad on top. Fourth: I would go here if necessary without cutting anything but the convo. It would involve zoning using the medium Talalay (finally you would get to include it where it belonged This would give us everything we need I believe to decide on how to get to the thicker firm support layer you need and exactly what we needed (if anything) to get to the best combination comfort layer as well. The end is near (smiling). Phoenix PS: The reason for some of the "incremental" steps is I'm hoping that we can get to what you need without having to buy anything else or at the very least buying as little as possible. This message was modified Dec 21, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix, thats an amazing amount of research you did, I really don't know how to thank you. Its all making so much more sense. As I said before I wish you had been on the forums 2 yrs back when I started switching layers. I think I made the rookie mistake (which is probably common) of thinking if the bed felt too firm I needed to get rid of the firm core pieces. Whereas now it seems pretty clear that I should have a firm core and just soften the top. Oh well... I'm afraid I can't do any good testing right now because cold is even worse. Couldn't really breath last night (stuffed nose) and got up at 6am. Hopefully on the mend today. But even if I could test more, I'm not that sure it will help. The 2 other "soft" pieces I have are both suspect, and we'd be trying them on a less than ideal core. I say let's bite the bullet and try to get the core right. Then I can see if the toppers I have are enough or if I need to supplement. I really don't mind spending some money now because I really feel like we have a lot of info already and we would be moving in the right direction. So I'm thinking of buying a firm dunlop piece. Not sure if I can get away with just one or not. Firm over Medium Dunlop with soft on top might work though, right? And if its not firm enough I can always order a 2nd firm piece... Steve |
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OK ... there is a small chance that a combination of what you have may work. This is from bottom to top 3" Medium Dunlop. 2" "firmer Talalay (or Dunlop) 3" Sleepez Talalay With possibly 1" memory foam either over or under the soft Talalay. What I am hoping for here is that the 2" layer is actually firmer Dunlop (a FBM error that worked in your favor) and this would give you about 5" of supporting layers with the 2" layer acting in a dual role (about 1" of softness) which would give you 4+" of comfort layers. This would give you 8-9" mattress height ... would fit in your cover ... and may work. This is still not a 6" core and would not have quite the flexibility range of a 6" core but it could be close ... assuming the 2" layer is suitable. if the 2" layer does not work for this (is too soft to use as a "dual purpose" support layer) then your best bet I also believe would be to order a 3" layer of firm Dunlop (or even very firm Talalay) which could be used either over or under the medium Dunlop depending on which worked the best for you. There is a possibility that 6" of firm would work better but I believe from the testing that medium over firm (or firm over medium) would work well and would give you a little flexibility and save the probably unneccessary expense of buying a 6" core and then having a 3" core that you couldn't use. The materials you have left could still be used for 2 part zoning (comfort layers) if you found you were one of those who benefited from this but the "better core" would be necessary anyway. The difference between the Dunlop and Talalay would be that the Dunlop would start initially with the same "softness" at the top 25% and then get "firmer faster" than a similar ILD Talalay and would give you the benefit of slightly greater support which it appears you need for best alignment. The advantage of Talalay would be that it would feel a little bit "springier" and perhaps a little closer to an "innerspring" feeling. So unless the "low probability" layering suggested above nails it, then yes I would buy a 3" layer of firm Dunlop. I think this has been a really worthwhile exercise (and I had a lot of fun with it) and I am very hopeful that this "long journey" can finally lead to better sleep for you :) Phoenix This message was modified Dec 23, 2010 by Phoenix
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I just realized that even if I order something today I likely won't have it until after New Year; doh!
Been sleeping on (bottom to top) [dunlop-med / dunlop-med / mem-foam / tal-soft] the last 2 nights. It doesn't really feel bad, but I think the mem-foam definitely still acts like mem foam even down a layer. In other words by morning I feel like its just squished flat and I am sinking in more than I would if it was latex. I'm gonna take it out tonight and just try the 3 sleepez layers again. If I want a soft 1" layer of latex, do I order like a 15 ILD piece? Or will a 20 ILD piece feel softer in a 1" layer? And where would you suggest I buy this? Also, would you suggest I order the firm dunlop from Sleepez? Steve PS - Happy holidays Phoneix! Thanks again for all your help... This message was modified Dec 23, 2010 by st3v3k4hn
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Phoeni, Reading thru some of your other posts got me to wondering if I should consider an adjustable slatted foundation (like the flobeds Euro system). My mattress is on a solid wood platform now, that has to be contributing to the firmness, right? Steve |
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I like the adjustable firmness slatted foundations (I probably would have bought one if my other half didn't want the adjustable massage do everything except wash the dishes Reverie base lol). In general, what they are good at is tweaking alignment. They are on the bottom so they would help control "lower firmness" or support ie. how far certain parts "sink down" to help spinal alignment. They would have little if any effect on "upper firmness" which comes more from the ILD and sag factor of the comfort layers and is more about how well a material allows parts of you to "sink in" and conform to your body shape to distribute weight and relieve pressure. In other words they could help make up for choices in support layers that were slightly off but they wouldn't really make up for choices in comfort layers that were slightly off. If I was ordering a 1" soft latex layer to add to a comfort layer, I would probably tend towards 20 ILD range given your weight. With the testing we have done it seems that it would be fine for comfort. Thinner layers in general "act" softer than thicker layers of the same ILD ... and their effect is more dependent on the relative ILD and thickness of the layers above and below. For example a firmer ILD thin layer can help you sink into a softer layer under it a little less and yet still feel "relatively" soft. This is the case with my mattress where the 1/2" quiltable latex is firmer than the 22 ILD Talalay right underneath it and (in combination with the "down alternative" fiber) results in slightly less sinking in to the softer layer below yet still feels soft. The tradeoff here is slightly less "point elasticity" or weight distribution/pressure relief in the softer layer. 1" layers can have quite a large effect in certain layering and ILD combinations. In general, I tend to use two "reference points" when I am comparing different places for buying latex. This is because they both have a good combination of pricing and materials available. Neither of them may be the least expensive for a particular layer someone may want to purchase (although one or the other of them often is) but they are usually a good starting point for good comparison. They are both very open about what they are selling and knowledgeable about latex in general. They also both often have other choices available besides what is listed on their website so it would be well worth calling them to see if they had exactly what what you wanted even if it wasn't specifically listed on their website. These are ... http://www.mattresses.net/index.html and There are a lot of other places as well with very good value but they will often not have the same wide selection. SLAB has the widest selection of Talalay including Celsion available but not Dunlop and you pay a little more. Foambymail is good if you really don't care how accurate what you get is but I wouldn't go there if what you need is more specific ... a little risky IMO. Overstock is also good for prices but risky in terms of what you actually get. Costco, Sams club is also great if they have what you want or need but they are way more limited. I plan to update the "toppers" thread when I get the chance to include a bunch more sources but haven't had the time so for now these are probably your best bet for toppers and/or cores and I would choose between them based on who had the best price for the specific type and ILD layer you were looking for since they both sell quality stuff. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 23, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix I'm thinking if I order a dunlop firm I might as well order a full layer and convert my 9" mattress to 12". So 2 questions on this: 1) I don't especially like the sleepez mattress case, as it has wool and /or cotton that seems to be getting impressions. I'd rather buy a plain thin case and add my own wool or cotton topper. Do you know of anyone that sells super plain mattresses cases? 2) With these 2 new layers I would have 2 dunlop firms, 2 dunlop mediums, 2 talalay mediums, and 2 tal softs. I'm guessing I'd probably want something like (top to bottom): 1-2" new soft talalay over [tal-soft / dunlop firm / dunlop firm / dunlop med]. Do you think that would work? Or would I be better sticking with just the soft over firms (no medium)? Or do you have another suggestion? Thanks again! Steve This message was modified Dec 26, 2010 by st3v3k4hn
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Based on the testing we did, I would be a little wary about a mattress that thick. There's a lot of material to "sink down" into which could cause alignment issues. Every time you used 2 mediums underneath you tended to "sink down" too far and I would think that a bottom layer of medium dunlop would allow more sinking down than a firm foundation and so would be risky. I think 12" may be better for someone that weighs a lot more than you do and even then I would be wary and only go there if something thinner didn't work. I think that beyond 9-10" or so (one sided 6"+4") that zoning is usually more likely to solve a really difficult issue than "thickness". These are 4 places I know where you can get a zip mattress cover/encasement. I know of about 4 or 5 more possibilities that may sell them but I've never followed up with them and when I called today they weren't open. I'll call them tomorrow (for my own information as well) and if they do sell them I'll add them to the list. Phoenix |
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Leo3 wrote: I didn't want a zipper cover though. Leo, what do you have on your foam if not a zippered case? |