Mattress Forum

I wish we could have tried the Dunlop under the 2" FBM talalay (treating as medium) under the 3" soft sleepez for an extra night or so as the results here were skewed with your cold. and a couple of nights on this could have been helpful.

The other thing I wish we'd tried (even though it is sort of worn out and you went to step 2) was the convo under the soft sleepez talalay.

With the 2" + 3' of latex over the Dunlop we would have been a little over in the comfort layers but not much and it would have been interesting to see how the "pressure/support" combination worked out. I may have "taken the edge" off the 3" dunlop for side sleeping.

With the convo under the talalay (bumps up), you would have had comfort layers that were "acting" more like 4.5 or so and this may have been even closer. Would have been interesting to see how you sank into this and then "translate" it into layers without the convo.

These 2 seem to be "just over" what you need in comfort layers.

The 3" soft latex with the memory foam under seems on the other hand to be "just under" what you need for comfort as it would be acting like about 3.5.

With all this we seem to have framed your comfort needs to about 4" of soft talalay. Whether the 5" would work or not remains to be seen (if you're willing to try this for a night or two with no "interfering cold".

In terms of support, all the results were much clearer when we got to a single 3" layer of Dunlop. This is clearly not thick enough to have a big enough range for changing positions but it is clear that overall it is the best support option we could have used for testing. This is indicating that a 6" support layer of around 40-44 Talalay may do very well for you or even a 6" layer of firm Dunlop with soft side up.

We can certainly try some simple zoning using the convo it you want to test this (it would be an ideal way to test zoning as you don't mind cutting it and you could use the most consistent part of it).

So where I would go now to get the most accurate feedback is to test the two closest layering schemes that we didn't fully test and then go to zoning if necessary. So ...

First: Dunlop under 2" FBM "talalay" under 3" sleepez talalay with as thin and flexible a pad over this as you can (avoiding wool in the encasement and wool pad over this). Because I suspect the 2" layer is firmer talalay or even dunlop, it may only have about 1" of softness and may give you a slightly thicker support layer as well as be quite close to a decent comfort layer. Could act as a "dual role" layer. Only tested for a night under he influence of a cold.

Second: Dunlop under Convo bumps up (middle layering would dampen somewhat it's inconsistencies) under 3" sleepez talalay again with as thin and flexible a pad as you can. Not tested at all

Third: 2 zones using the convo in the upper part and the soft talalay in the lower part 2" FBM talalay over Dunlop with thin pad on top.

Fourth: I would go here if necessary without cutting anything but the convo. It would involve zoning using the medium Talalay (finally you would get to include it where it belonged ) with either the convo or the soft talalay. Step 3 could tell us a lot about how this may work.

This would give us everything we need I believe to decide on how to get to the thicker firm support layer you need and exactly what we needed (if anything) to get to the best combination comfort layer as well.

The end is near (smiling).

Phoenix

PS: The reason for some of the "incremental" steps is I'm hoping that we can get to what you need without having to buy anything else or at the very least buying as little as possible.

I'm afraid I can't do any good testing right now because cold is even worse. Couldn't really breath last night (stuffed nose) and got up at 6am. Hopefully on the mend today.

But even if I could test more, I'm not that sure it will help. The 2 other "soft" pieces I have are both suspect, and we'd be trying them on a less than ideal core. I say let's bite the bullet and try to get the core right. Then I can see if the toppers I have are enough or if I need to supplement. I really don't mind spending some money now because I really feel like we have a lot of info already and we would be moving in the right direction. So I'm thinking of buying a firm dunlop piece. Not sure if I can get away with just one or not. Firm over Medium Dunlop with soft on top might work though, right? And if its not firm enough I can always order a 2nd firm piece...

Steve

3" Medium Dunlop.

2" "firmer Talalay (or Dunlop)

3" Sleepez Talalay

With possibly 1" memory foam either over or under the soft Talalay.

What I am hoping for here is that the 2" layer is actually firmer Dunlop (a FBM error that worked in your favor) and this would give you about 5" of supporting layers with the 2" layer acting in a dual role (about 1" of softness) which would give you 4+" of comfort layers. This would give you 8-9" mattress height ... would fit in your cover ... and may work. This is still not a 6" core and would not have quite the flexibility range of a 6" core but it could be close ... assuming the 2" layer is suitable.

if the 2" layer does not work for this (is too soft to use as a "dual purpose" support layer) then your best bet I also believe would be to order a 3" layer of firm Dunlop (or even very firm Talalay) which could be used either over or under the medium Dunlop depending on which worked the best for you. There is a possibility that 6" of firm would work better but I believe from the testing that medium over firm (or firm over medium) would work well and would give you a little flexibility and save the probably unneccessary expense of buying a 6" core and then having a 3" core that you couldn't use. The materials you have left could still be used for 2 part zoning (comfort layers) if you found you were one of those who benefited from this but the "better core" would be necessary anyway.

The difference between the Dunlop and Talalay would be that the Dunlop would start initially with the same "softness" at the top 25% and then get "firmer faster" than a similar ILD Talalay and would give you the benefit of slightly greater support which it appears you need for best alignment. The advantage of Talalay would be that it would feel a little bit "springier" and perhaps a little closer to an "innerspring" feeling.

So unless the "low probability" layering suggested above nails it, then yes I would buy a 3" layer of firm Dunlop.

I think this has been a really worthwhile exercise (and I had a lot of fun with it) and I am very hopeful that this "long journey" can finally lead to better sleep for you :)

Phoenix

Been sleeping on (bottom to top) [dunlop-med / dunlop-med / mem-foam / tal-soft] the last 2 nights. It doesn't really feel bad, but I think the mem-foam definitely still acts like mem foam even down a layer. In other words by morning I feel like its just squished flat and I am sinking in more than I would if it was latex. I'm gonna take it out tonight and just try the 3 sleepez layers again.

If I want a soft 1" layer of latex, do I order like a 15 ILD piece? Or will a 20 ILD piece feel softer in a 1" layer? And where would you suggest I buy this?

Also, would you suggest I order the firm dunlop from Sleepez?

Steve

PS - Happy holidays Phoneix! Thanks again for all your help...

Reading thru some of your other posts got me to wondering if I should consider an adjustable slatted foundation (like the flobeds Euro system). My mattress is on a solid wood platform now, that has to be contributing to the firmness, right?

Steve

In general, what they are good at is tweaking alignment. They are on the bottom so they would help control "lower firmness" or support ie. how far certain parts "sink down" to help spinal alignment.

They would have little if any effect on "upper firmness" which comes more from the ILD and sag factor of the comfort layers and is more about how well a material allows parts of you to "sink in" and conform to your body shape to distribute weight and relieve pressure.

In other words they could help make up for choices in support layers that were slightly off but they wouldn't really make up for choices in comfort layers that were slightly off.

If I was ordering a 1" soft latex layer to add to a comfort layer, I would probably tend towards 20 ILD range given your weight. With the testing we have done it seems that it would be fine for comfort. Thinner layers in general "act" softer than thicker layers of the same ILD ... and their effect is more dependent on the relative ILD and thickness of the layers above and below. For example a firmer ILD thin layer can help you sink into a softer layer under it a little less and yet still feel "relatively" soft. This is the case with my mattress where the 1/2" quiltable latex is firmer than the 22 ILD Talalay right underneath it and (in combination with the "down alternative" fiber) results in slightly less sinking in to the softer layer below yet still feels soft. The tradeoff here is slightly less "point elasticity" or weight distribution/pressure relief in the softer layer. 1" layers can have quite a large effect in certain layering and ILD combinations.

In general, I tend to use two "reference points" when I am comparing different places for buying latex. This is because they both have a good combination of pricing and materials available. Neither of them may be the least expensive for a particular layer someone may want to purchase (although one or the other of them often is) but they are usually a good starting point for good comparison. They are both very open about what they are selling and knowledgeable about latex in general. They also both often have other choices available besides what is listed on their website so it would be well worth calling them to see if they had exactly what what you wanted even if it wasn't specifically listed on their website.

These are ...

http://www.mattresses.net/index.html and

http://www.sleepez.com/

There are a lot of other places as well with very good value but they will often not have the same wide selection. SLAB has the widest selection of Talalay including Celsion available but not Dunlop and you pay a little more. Foambymail is good if you really don't care how accurate what you get is but I wouldn't go there if what you need is more specific ... a little risky IMO. Overstock is also good for prices but risky in terms of what you actually get. Costco, Sams club is also great if they have what you want or need but they are way more limited.

I plan to update the "toppers" thread when I get the chance to include a bunch more sources but haven't had the time so for now these are probably your best bet for toppers and/or cores and I would choose between them based on who had the best price for the specific type and ILD layer you were looking for since they both sell quality stuff.

Phoenix

I'm thinking if I order a dunlop firm I might as well order a full layer and convert my 9" mattress to 12". So 2 questions on this:

1) I don't especially like the sleepez mattress case, as it has wool and /or cotton that seems to be getting impressions. I'd rather buy a plain thin case and add my own wool or cotton topper. Do you know of anyone that sells super plain mattresses cases? 

2) With these 2 new layers I would have 2 dunlop firms, 2 dunlop mediums, 2 talalay mediums, and 2 tal softs. I'm guessing I'd probably want something like (top to bottom): 1-2" new soft talalay over [tal-soft / dunlop firm / dunlop firm / dunlop med]. Do you think that would work? Or would I be better sticking with just the soft over firms (no medium)? Or do you have another suggestion?

Thanks again! 

Steve

These are 4 places I know where you can get a zip mattress cover/encasement. I know of about 4 or 5 more possibilities that may sell them but I've never followed up with them and when I called today they weren't open. I'll call them tomorrow (for my own information as well) and if they do sell them I'll add them to the list.

Leo, what do you have on your foam if not a zippered case?
 

I am back to my plush (thin) polyester blanket.   I have tried every mattress pad available in my area, and some mail order, and Costco Cuddlebed (the worse).  Stitching is disaster for me, as well as tufting.  I am not sure if you are as sensitive as me