Mattress Forum

It'll probably be a while before I find the balance that is the "most effective".

I did at least get to some kind of definition of a "perfect mattress" though ...

Uh oh Charlie Brown's teacher is here, LOL, seriously though what the heck do you mean?  Differential?  Progressive, like bifocals, LOL.  Talk layman terms for dummies please.  Do you mean a hard as rock core, then soft?  Do you mean Firm, medium, then soft is worse to do for fine tuning?

Just PM Admin, there is a stickies already at the top of the page.  If he likes he posts
 

You asked about is the blanket enough to protect the latex, yes.  You just are protecting it from light and dirt.  When I used the Natura wool with polyester backing that was rough it ripped up my latex, so no that is not good.  Luckily that latex is no longer used, it was shredded from that backing of the topper.  You don't need a zipper case for my uses.  Maybe for yours you need or want it too look good.  But mine has a sheet over it and is not seen.  Some do it yourself people used the terry cloth zipper over 3 layers of latex and it is protected enough.

Differential approach means a bigger difference in ILD between the comfort layer(s) and the support layer(s). Say 3" of say 19 - 22 ILD over 6" of 36 or 40 ILD (or soft over firm)

Progressive approach means a smaller difference in ILD between the comfort layer(s) and the support layers(s) say 3" of 22 ILD over 3" of 28 ILD over 3" of 40 ILD (or soft over medium over firm)

Starting with Soft, Medium, Firm can be much more difficult to adjust because it's sort of a "compromise" of both comfort and support and trying to change the comfort ends up affecting the support as well (and vice versa) more than the other one. You can often get "more accurate" this way and change the overall "feel" of a mattress more but it can be a lot harder.

Phoenix

PS: you're a tough nut to crack ... but a great "testing ground" for what I "try to" write (laughing).

Okay so I have a "differential" setup with my hard mattress, then soft layer top.  You are saying that is better?  I notice Sleepeze 99.999% always recommends soft, medium, firm, so that is a tougher to get comfortable from the readers posting here.  But you are saying (the last paragraph) you can often get "more accurate" this way... but it can be a lot harder.

I don't know about me being a tough nut to crack, or what that means, LOL, but I am more honest than most if I don't understand something I say so.    Maybe I am asking what some other people are thinking and not posting.

"I don't know about me being a tough nut to crack, or what that means, LOL, but I am more honest than most if I don't understand something I say so.    Maybe I am asking what some other people are thinking and not posting."

You probably are posting what lots of people are thinking and not posting ... that's why I said you were a great testing ground. The "tough nut to crack" means you are challenging me (in a good way) to be a better combination of simple and informative and that if what I post "works" for you it will probably "work" for lots of people ... but it's tough to get there :)

Sometimes too it's important (to me at least) to go into more detail than most would want just for the few that may like to read "every technicality" or every "opinion" I may have or know about. This is what some of the old posters (dbhayes, cloud9 and quite a few others) that sadly aren't posting anymore used to do as well in the old forum and the earlier part of this one and it really helped lots of people as well ... including me. There doesn't seem to be quite as much "research based" type of posts at the moment as there once was. There's a lot of people still here from those times that still post and help a lot of people so they might have an interesting perspective on this as well. Did they all get tired or did the switch in forums really have that big an effect?

Yes ... you have a "differential" setup which is easier to get "close". The progressive setup could end up better (at least for some) but can take a lot of patience, fiddling, or "correct predictions" sometimes to get there. It might also need "non standard" layer thicknesses outside of just 2" or 3" to get to "perfection". Which one is "better" really depends on the person but in my experience getting to 80 - 90% or so is probably good enough for most and this is often easier to get to with the "differential" approach.

If Soft medium firm with maybe one layer exchange is "close enough" for someone, then they are happy. If it's not close enough, or if someone really needs something closer to "the best for them" and one layer exchange doesn't get there, then it often starts an endless series of adjustments that seem too often to "fall short". Sometimes it's because none of the choices seem to work (for usually unknown to them reasons) and sometimes it's because they just run out of patience or will and think that "nothing will work".

Phoenix

I wish there was a mathematical formula that could be used ... it could help a lot in some cases ... but I don't know of any. Who is making these assumptions ... I'd like to find them and see if they would give me their "formula" (smiling).

I certainly agree with you though that it's really hard to "figure in" comfort factors. It's a lot more intuitive than mathematical. If they do some field testing though it's a lot easier to get a sense of what feels comfortable for them.

Having said that, I do see many times people who try to change things that have little chance for success. There are always a few (like yourself) that stick to it but unfortunately there are also lots who give up once they've made a comfort switch or two that doesn't work out. Sometimes the switch they are trying has very low odds of success and could have been "predicted". I think these are the ones who often lose hope when they don't see improvement.

Most of the old posters I was talking about weren't looking for a mattress. I meant some of the old posters that had been around for many years that seemed to stop posting when the forum changed or soon after.

Phoenix

• Separate 6" core of medium or firm dunlop, you add toppers from their collection until you are happy. I added a soft 2" talalay + a soft wool topper which felt pretty good. Would need to play more before I bought. Advantage here is its customizable, if the 2" topper isn't enough they will exchange for 3", if the wool flattens I can just buy a new one. 
• 5.5-7.5" latex cores wrapped in quilted latex, cotton, and/or wool. There are 3 models, with differing degrees of wrap. They claim they all will hold up well but obviously the saftest choice would be the plainest, least wrapped one. This was a "cushion firm" they also called it the 5003. This actually felt pretty decent by itself, altho I think it would be best with a similar topper to above (maybe a little less, ie could probably just use the wool topper). The advantage here is its a bit cheaper (because they sell more and because some of the topper is included in the bed). Also you can flip these, which I'm not really sure is an advantage but I'll include it anyway. Disadvantage is if the "minimal" materials in the wrapping flatten you can't replace them.
• A model with 2 4" mattresses stacked on each other. The 2 mattresses were identical; each had a "firm" and a "soft" side, and you could change the feel by changing the way you laid out the mattresses. This was a custom design done for them, and I think its not that well proven yet, but interesting concept. 

As I said, the big shocker for me was that almost all of these latex mattresses seemed plenty soft. So I am even more confused because most of these were pretty close to what I have now.  The Englanders were ~ 6" medium dunlop with anywhere from 1-3" softer latex and other stuff on top. My bed is currently set up as 6" medium dunlop with 3" soft talalay on top. Why is my bed so much less comfortable? I really hope you can make sense of this!

Englander in general is a kind of tricky brand because each one of the different licensees build them differently and they will also custom manufacture for different outlets. In Washington, they are made by Tualatin sleep products in Oregon so I would think if you ever need any "accurate information" about the specific outlet or model you were looking at you could call them and hopefully they would give it to you. I came across several places where I tested Englander and each of them were different. One place even tried to tell me it had "soy latex" and got angry when I disputed this. I do believe though that the Englander at bedroomsandmore are all latex. I think that the core of these may have been firmer than yours or a single core which would go a long way to explaining why you felt a difference. Your talalay top with either a firm Dunlop underneath or 2 firm Dunlops under may feel very similar.

Dunlop is an interesting type of latex because of it's tendency to settle in manufacture. This means that a single say 6" layer can act like it is softer on top and firmer underneath. This means that it's sag factor is higher than Talalay. I think this is why you often see single core mattresses made from it because it "acts" somewhat like talalay multiple layering. This would only apply though to a single 6" core and not two 3" cores since you would have no way of knowing which side a 3" core came from and it wouldn't have the same "range" of density as a 6" core no matter which side it was. If I was going to buy a single core mattress ... it would probably be Dunlop. This may explain some of the "counterintuitive" feedback that comes from Dunlop sometimes and the differences you felt from your mattress.

Therapedic just came out of a bankruptcy and is owned by the same people that own Eclipse and Eastman house. They are apparently run by "mattress people" rather than "financial people" and they have mostly latex mattresses in their pure touch line and Kathy Ireland line but they both are not "all latex" and IMO spoil them by putting some poly on top ... even though it's not as much as others. Other than that they seem to be well made.

I think that a lot of manufacturers have put softer poly over latex both to try to manufacture to a price point and also to be able to use slightly firmer latex underneath to provide better support. It almost seems that a lot of manufacturers didn't "trust" soft latex either and only recently with the introduction of some brands that are using it and "beating" the competition are you seeing it used more widely in the top layers. I think Natura and more recently Pure Latex Bliss had a lot to do with this.

I also liked the OMI and with the way it's constructed it may have been alright for support for me (my weight is fairly evenly distributed but I need soft for my bony parts) but it was way expensive. I sure did like how it felt though. For reference the OMI is 25ILD over 35 ILD over 25 ILD and the topper is also 25 ILD. They will also customize the ILD although the convoluted topper can only use 25 (softer would not be convoluted). It is also natural talalay which would act in thicker layers as sightly more resilient. I would probably be a little worried as well with that thick a layer of 25 ILD but with the thick ticking and the ability of latex to get firmer as you sink deeper, it may have been OK for me (may have been aligned with a deeper cradle) but with our weight difference it may be a bit risky for you. It does say though that in terms of feel and ILD that it felt good to you even at 25 ILD (acting a bit softer because of the convolute).

The Natura's that I tried were great testing grounds because of the different ILD's and thicknesses of Talalay that they had on top of a Dunlop core. I learned a lot about my "critical zone" (how thick a comfort layer I need) from these. I did a lot of testing here and elsewhere laying quietly and then just "bouncing" a bit on mattresses with my hip to see if I could sense what was underneath.

I am still convinced that your "critical zone" is 3.5-4" depending on the ILD of the latex in the top 2 layers. This means that a 3" topper with the right (slightly less) ILD underneath could very well feel pretty good although I believe that from your feedback that slightly firmer support would work better for you (you would need to be on a mattress longer to really know how it was support wise).

So all in all this seemed like a good experience and it seems to confirm the direction you are going. Relatively soft over relatively firm and very firm on the bottom. Dunlop also seems to be the best latex for you in the middle and lower layers without zoning at least.

Did you get a sense of whether "all latex" would work for you in a "good" layering scheme or are you still thinking that an innerspring may work better?

Phoenix