Mattress Forum

Thanks again for the long post. Amazingly informative and helpful (to me at least)! 

But the more I understand about this, the less I think a sleepez scheme is going to work for me. There are so many variables, and they are so hard to predict in combination. Say I go back to the store and determine I like the OMI topper over the firm Englander core. The OMI topper is a sophisticated blend of materials that I can't reproduce with say just 3" of 20 ILD latex. And the Englander core is a solid 6" which you say is going to act and feel very different than two 3" firm pieces. So I can sink another $1000 or more into trying to get this right (6" firm dunlop and 1-2" soft talalay and maybe dormier or natura wool topper) or I can find something I love for probably $2k and just buy it. Guess which way I am leaning right now? 

The OMI convolute is not so hard to "duplicate" I did it (at least in my feel) with 3" 22 ILD with no convoluting. Of course my weight distribution is different from yours (and I do have other "stuff" over the 3") but the idea is it's not so hard to "duplicate". Basically what "convoluting" is doing is giving the layer a higher sag factor (softer with shallow compression and firmer with deeper compression). An inch of slightly firmer talalay under 3" or an inch of softer talalay over 3" would act in a similar way and you may not even need the extra inch with a medium Dunlop under.

The biggest danger you face IMO is the wide differential in the needs of your shoulder vs the needs of your hips and without zoning you would need a softer comfort layer to accomodate your shoulders and let them sink in enough with a firm support to stop your hips. Given what you have if you were to go in that direction and also given the results of your testing and especially your floor testing ... I have a feeling that 3" extra firm dunlop under medium dunlop under 3" soft talalay wouldn't be that far off. The 3" Talalay would be a little too thin but the top inch or so of the medium dunlop would add thickness to your comfort layer and then the sag factor of the medium dunlop along with the very firm underneath could give you good support. This is using a "bit" of progressive layering but would still be primarily differential.

You also have another option that only involves getting a 3" very firm Dunlop which is using your medium Talalay in the lower 2/3 of your mattress and the softer Talalay in the upper 1/3 of your mattress (2 zone) and this zoned 3" comfort layer over medium and very firm Dunlop could work better than any single zone system IMO.

I would certainly spend time with the "progressive approach" thinner talalay over the Dunlop if you felt it was worth it but I have my doubts it would be thick/soft enough for your shoulders.

I guess that $2000 would buy a lot of mattress but for the risk of a single firm Dunlop you would already seem to have what you need to get things to work. If you can get the firm Dunlop with the ability to return it then you would have little to lose and I think it may be another "surprise" in terms of how close it could be ... with or without zoning.

You could also buy a quiltable latex cover here if you wanted to replace yours and you wanted to go in the direction of a little more "comfort" latex in a quilting (and didn't mind losing the wool in the quilting) but I would wait till you tested the xfirm Dunlop layering (if you decide to go in that direction) to make sure your experience indicated you needed it.

Phoenix

PS: 3" Medium over 3" firm Dunlop would act in a similar way in terms of "progressive support" to a single 6" layer of high sag factor medium ILD Dunlop.

Zoning of the type in the OMI only makes a very small difference as the zones are very close together (usually @ 4 ILD) so this really isn't a factor compared to real zoning. The convolute is simply creating a higher sag factor which is fairly easy to duplicate (including 3" soft over medium which would have a higher sag factor in the top 4" than 4" soft). The OMI would also be very similar to the soft sleepez in terms of ILD although it may be a bit softer with the convolute. The thick ticking (2 layers of cotton and quilted wool) would also not be that difficult to duplicate with a pad on top if you even needed it. The danger of this quilting would be what happened over time as the wool compressed and a pad that did the same thing would be preferable to me at least. All in all, the OMI is very nice but they "upsell" what it really is in order to justify the cost.

I also think that if you even need it that double zoning using what you have would work very well (and better than the OMI zoning).

I would phone the two outlets that I mentioned before and tell them what you are doing and see what they have that's not on their website (I'd probably hope that they might give you some kind of deal or maybe comfort exchange given what you have "been through" if you tell your story "well enough") lol. If neither of them have what you want (and make sure it's firm enough) or there is no return privileges, then let me know as I have a few other options that I can post but they may not be quite as inexpensive as the least expensive of these but they would probably be close. I'm also tracking down one or two other places that may have some really inexpensive firm Dunlop but they haven't answered the phone in the past couple of days. Maybe they're on holidays.

In any case it seems to me that it's worth a try as it could save you a few bucks.

Phoenix

PS: the only ones there I would consider as a topper would be the 2" and 3" Natura. The OMI is just throwing money away IMO and the Englander is Dunlop and is unlikely to be soft enough or allow enough sinkin in for what you need. It would just lead to "pattern repeat" (and would also throw a little less away). I can' believe what eiher of them can get away with charging ... one for Talalay and one for Dunlop. There are some really nice 3" and 2" toppers available for way less including the rejuvenite body pillow (which is from LI) and the Pure Latex Bliss toppers (which is a subsidiary of LI). Both of these would be great, have very nice covers, are designed to work together (cover latex). If the ILD is right they would save you lots over the Nautura.

BTW, the FBM 2" over 3" soft over 3" dunlop is killing me - feels way too firm. I think you are right that the FBM is firmer. I'm probably gonna ditch it (along with the wonky convo foam).

Thinking about all this dunlop core business, I am going to try the soft over the dunlop med over the talalay medium tonite. I'm hoping the dunlop in the middle will absorb most of the weight and act closer to a standard 6" medium core (which seemed to feel fine in the store). I do think its going to be too soft, especially in the hips. I might add some poster board or something under my hips to try and firm that area. This combination at least seems to feel nice and soft on my shoulders. We'll see tomorrow.

They actually had a "firming" pad at the Bedrooms and More store. Maybe I should just buy that and put it under the middle layer? Or what if I put my wool mattress pad in there? It has that stiff backing that seems to firm things. Although I'd be worried it would tear up the foam. And it does seem like maybe I only need firming at the hips?

I'll look at those other toppers you mentioned tomorrow too...

Thanks again...

You only need a 3" layer of X firm under you (unless by two you meant your half and your wifes half). If a medium Dunlop you have is split then you could get away with switching your half of it if your wife is OK with what she has.

Not surprised at the FBM ... have been suspecting medium but it may even be more. It's tough to work with "unknown layers" when there are enough unknowns already :). Makes it tough to really know for sure what is causing the effect of a change.

With the medium Talalay under, it may compress before the medium Dunlop depending on the relative ILD @25% and what compresses when after that depends on the relative sag factors. This is what I called "order of compression" before. When softer is under firmer, the softer compresses first. This helps parts to sink down but not "sink in". so it could help with alignment but not so much pressure relief. It may even reduce pressure relief slightly as it may change the order of compression so that the talalay compresses before the soft upper part of the medium Dunlop. The Dunlop would start to compress when the compressed Talalay under it became firmer than the top part of the Dunlop.

I think a thin firm layer like the mattress pad in the layering can work really well (or even cardboard and other thinner stiffer materials). I am tracking down a place to buy stuff like this but they haven't answered their phone either. I've been hoping someone would try this when I suggested it before as I think it could make a big difference in some cases (depending on what was used) but so far nobody has. If you go this route I'd just put it under the hip area to stop the Talalay from compressing and make the top part of the Dunlop compress. Cardboard or similar may work as well at least for a short while till it crinkled too much to stay firm. I'd sure be interested in how it changed things for you. It could even work better in between the medium/medium Dunlop if it stopped the lower layer from compressing too much and "forced" the upper layer to do the compressing.

Phoenix

2) I did experiment with putting some poster board under the dunlop piece. Started with like 10 pieces which made things super hard. Was surprised to find that even 1 piece made a noticeable difference. I didn't sleep with it though.

3) What I did sleep with was the soft over dunlop-med over tal-med. And, I think I finally get it!  Because for a long time I would have told you that this was both too soft and not soft enough. But thinking that didn't make sense. Now I think it does make sense; its not quite enough soft foam in the comfort layer, and too much soft foam in the support layer. What you've been saying all along. So I think I'll cakk Sleepez and "tell my story" and see what they will do. 2 pieces of firm dunlop should be good for support. 

But I clearly need more comfort layers as well. I do notice that when I add the allergy cover and the mattress pad things feel a bit firmer. Do you have suggestions for what I should do? Remove the mattress pad maybe? Add more foam? Wool? Do you think blended vs natural matters for topper?

I think I'd probably want something thats like 1.5" latex + wool. You mentioned the Rejuvenite and the Pure Latex Bliss toppers, are those the ones you would add? (I can only find rejuvenite in 3" layers.) Any sites you recommend for ordering?

Steve (feeling encouraged!)

I am guessing that the "bad latex" came from FBM and not foamorder which is a much more reliable supplier. They are very open about what they sell and while their prices may not be the best, I would certainly have confidence that what I ordered from them was what they sent me ... unlike FBM.

I am assuming that when you are talking about ordering 2 pieces of firm you mean 2 half pieces ie. one complete layer? I'm hoping that's the case since I don't think you will need 2 firm layers.

If you have say 40+ ILD Dunlop under the medium Dunlop, then the medium dunlop would compress first and the top part would feel soft and so "add to" the 3" of comfort you have with the soft Talalay. It would then start to compress and get firmer faster and with this "deeper firmness" in combination with the firm Dunlop under could also give you the support you need. Once you have tried this ... any minor adjustments you may need will be much more clear.

I doubt that most people would feel the difference between blended and natural Talalay in a comfort layer but the natural in theory would be a little springier and resilient and perhaps a little bit more "point elastic". I really do doubt though that the difference is enough to make an issue of it.

I was mentioning the PLB and Rejuvenite as examples of what I might put over a thicker layer of Dunlop to "duplicate" the OMI. They wouldn't work for you because you already have 3" soft Talalay which should work fine. You may need a thin layer with this but the medium Dunlop could give you what you need if what is under it is firm enough to "make it compress" first.

Phoenix

Anyway, I just got off the phone with Shaun at SleepEz. Told him what was going on and he recommended 1 piece of FIRM BLENDED TALALAY. He suggested I could put the firm over the medium dunlop. His reasoning was that either talalay or dunlop should be firm enough (in terms of support), but that the talalay would have a little more give / comfort and so it should help more with the pressure points. Your thoughts?

By the way, I think I am going to order a new terry cover because I can feel my sleepez cover is compressing (apparently I am a princess).   So that means I really will just have 8.x" of foam and no other materials. So I really wonder if I should also but some sort of topper, either wool or wool/latex blend? Or do you think its better to try the new config and see?

Thanks (for the millionth time )

With a firm thin layer over a softer layer (the medium Dunlop), you will not sink in as far into the softer layer below and this would help with alignment. It would help diminish the "sinking down". This is a good thing. I would probably be tempted to use a thin layer of the firmest Dunlop I could find to do this though rather than Talalay although the layer would be so thin it may not matter much. Dunlop is denser and would be "more like" a thin stiffer layer like we were talking about before than Talalay (and that you could feel made a difference). This is the part I agree with except I would use Dunlop to do it with if it had the same ILD (minor issue with a 1" layer)

In terms of pressure relief though it would be a different story. If the 1" layer was firm enough to stop the sinking down ... it's unlikely that it would make a big enough difference as a comfort layer. you would not sink "into" it enough to give you the extra "cradling" you may need. Yes, being thin it would "give" and may initially feel like you were "sinking in" but it would give more "as a whole" since the layers above and below are softer and would compress before it did. Even though it may "feel like" it was helping create a deeper cradle, it's unlikely it would really be doing this as well as the top part of your medium Dunlop (which it would dominate). This is the part of his advice I would consider to be "risky"

In other words ... if the 1" layer was firm enough to help with "sinking down" ... it may be too firm to help with "sinking in". If it was soft enough to help with "sinking in" then it wouldn't be firm enough to help with "sinking down". To do both you would need a thick enough middle layer where the combination of ILD (softness) and Sag factor (support) was meaningful in practice.

If I was going to use a "thin layer" approach, I would put the thin layer in between the two medium Dunlops and would probably use a thinner firmer layer rather than an inch of latex. If I was to use latex in this way (rather than an "insulator pad" type of layer), I would make it the absolute firmest I could find. I would think that even an inch of really stiff poly may also work with this approach. The goal of this thin layer approach would be to make the bottom medium Dunlop act "more like" firm Dunlop and "force" the middle dunlop to compress enough to add to pressure relief and cradling.

So bottom line ... If I was to use the "thin layer" approach ... It would probably be in between layers not "in exchange" for one of the mediums ... I would tend towards a non foam layer ... and If I used foam to do this (or at least test it) I would probably be with really firm poly with really firm Dunlop as the second choice.

Overall ... because the mattress would be thinner and because it would have a "dominating layer" in the middle, it would also reduce the "range" of the mattress which is it's ability to give both support and pressure relief in different sleeping positions with different needs.

Phoenix