| i have a sleepez bed that I keep trying to soften by adding more layers of foam in the case. So I now have 4.5 layers in a case meant for 3 layers. The case still zips, but I wonder if I am compressing the foam so much that it is affecting the feel. I have talalay latex, which always felt springy to me, but I am wondering if this made it more springy? Or if this is bad for the foam? |
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But since the soft-t over med-d over med-d wasn't "soft enough" (in terms of comfort layer) than I also know that changing the bottom piece to firm won't help the top feel softer. Actually it would make a difference because of "order of compression". In medium d over medium d ... the lower layer is doing half the compressing when what you want is the middle layer to compress as much as possible before the lower layer "kicks in". It's the initial compression of the middle layer that will help form a cradle and become part of your comfort layer and if the bottom is too soft it won't do this. This is one of those situations that seems "counterintuitive" until an "aha" happens. So I really feel like I should also order another layer of thin talalay, or a good wool topper (although I see from other posts that you don't feel that wool really softens things). So I guess just a 1" or maybe 1.5" layer of soft (22ILD) talalay might work? Does it make sense to order that from Sleepez at the same time? And do you think 1" is enough? You may need a thin layer of soft talalay to add to this but with this layering (the top part of the middle dunlop is "acting soft") you may not need it. It may also be helpful to wait until this is tested so that it's easier to tell what is needed in the "final adjustments" so that they too can be more accurate. If you do need this then the odds are overwhelming that 1" would be enough but what remains to be seen is if it should be slightly firmer (in between the soft talalay and medium Dunlop) and go under the soft Talalay or if it should be softer than the upper talalay and go over it. How the initial setup feels with a wool mattress pad on top may affect this choice as well (a wool pad in general is not as "point elastic" as the underlying talalay and lessens how far you can sink in to a soft layer ... moreso as it compresses). Some pads do this less (like the thin Dormier) because they are thinner and have a more elastic backing. Some thicker pads with a less elastic backing would do this more ... even though they may initially "feel" softer. So ... for the sake of better choices in the last inch if it is needed ... I would wait till after you received this one. Phoenix |
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Actually it would make a difference because of "order of compression". Aha! All right, I am ordering the firm dunlop right after this. I will wait until I get it to see if I need more latex. For the record, I do have a wool pad, but its thin wool with a stiff, rough backing, and I think it firms the bed quite a bit. So I dont use it. Thanks again. You've been amazingly patient and nice about all this. If you are ever back in the Seattle / Redmond / Bellevue area you should let me buy you dinner as a thank you! Steve |
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If you are ever back in the Seattle / Redmond / Bellevue area you should let me buy you dinner as a thank you! With pleasure You've been just as patient. Phoenix |
. I have every intention of being there as much as I can since that is where my "heart" and other half (known in another thread as "Latex" lol) lives and it drives me nuts that a "border" can keep us apart as much as it does.| By the way, one more weird question. I have that very thin layer of memory foam that I dont like very much near the top of my mattress. What would it do if I put it under the top 2 layers I have now? In other words, soft-t over med-d over mem-foam over med-d. Would it make things softer or firmer? (Still trying to firm up the 2 mediums...) |
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It would likely allow you to "sink down" more as it would likely slowly compress over the course of the night so it would make the support layers softer. This one is a little difficult to answer definitively because it would depend to some degree on how "sensitive" the memory foam was and how much heat reached it over the course of the night but I would guess it would compress "at some point" and when it did it would take "priority" in the "order of compression". Underneath the soft Talalay it may initially feel firmer (unmelted) but as heat reached it it could add to your cradle over time. All of this would depend on how much it reacts to heat (visco) and how much it reacts to pressure (elastic). Ice will melt with pressure for example not just heat ... and different memory foam formulations have different properties. Phoenix PS: there is an actual science behind all of this called Rheology and in the case of viscoelasticity it can get pretty complicated. With memory foam there is a property called creep which makes it especially difficult to predict in middle layers. This creep and it's low elasticity are what gives memory foam the small amount of "support" it does have and why you don't sink "all the way through it" as you would with honey. Enough to say that memory foam is "creepy" ... in more ways than one (laughing). This message was modified Dec 30, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix, I just ordered the dunlop from Sleepez. Altho I keep thinking now how funny it is that this is essentially a progressive layering, when all along I think you were more favoring the differential layering for me. Thats why I thought I should buy 2 firm pieces, so I could do 4-4.5" soft over 6" firm (differential). So I sure hope this progressive scheme works! Steve |
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It sort of has elements of both. We are using Dunlop in the middle which has a fairly large differential with soft Talalay (especially with deeper progression) but it is progressive in the sense that we are using the top of it for part of the comfort layer. The difference between the bottom and the middle ("xfirm" under medium) is also "in between" ... but as big a differential as possible. Probably fair to say we are using a "progressive differential" approach with "bigger jumps" than a pure progressive approach :). I'm looking forward to when you get to sleep on this What was the ILD of the "firm" Dunlop they had? Phoenix This message was modified Dec 30, 2010 by Phoenix
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If we had used a more "pure" differential approach, we would have needed a firmer layer in the middle and a thicker comfort layer which would have involved buying more foam. I also believe that "progressive" elements using layer thickness as well as ILD's can be more "accurate" but it's more difficult to build because there are more "variables" involved. In your case I believe that what we are doing will be more accurate (perhaps with a "final adjustment") than what would have been possible with a more pure differential approach. Your willingness to "experiment" and provide really good feedback was also what made this possible :) Phoenix This message was modified Dec 30, 2010 by Phoenix
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The dunlop firm is 38-40. BTW I asked shaun if he felt like the "firm" side of his dunlop was really significantly firmer than the soft side. He said he would be shocked if most people could tell a difference, especially down a few layers. He also said that the label side isn't necessarily the soft side; they just grab some foam, stick a label on it and ship it. The one possible problem I foresee is that this will put 2 dunlops on my side and only one on my wife's side. Since the dunlops are theoretically a different height than the talalays that could potentially be a problem. In which case I would probably try the medium talalay in the middle, and if that didn't work buy her another dunlop too. But obviously that's a wait and see thing... Steve |
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I talked to Shawn about whether there was a reliable way to tell which is the "firm" side of the cut Dunlop he sold (you never know for sure if it's not a full core) and he was the one who told me that it would "probably" be the side with the label up but that he didn't know for sure. He also said he had never been asked this question before. (reply #46) I also doubt it could be "felt" in terms of "softness" with a 3" layer, but it could make a difference depending on the type of Dunlop it was, in terms of how far you sink in. These kinds of "adjustments" are trying for small increments in 3" layers but sometimes a couple of small increments can make a difference. Savvy rest (and some others) even "promotes" flipping their Dunlop 3" layers as a way of adjusting firmness. As far as the Dunlop core thickness it would depend on who makes it. Lots of them are between 5.5" and 6". The latex green is 5.9" (15 cm) so if that's what it was there wouldn't be too much difference. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 30, 2010 by Phoenix
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