| i have a sleepez bed that I keep trying to soften by adding more layers of foam in the case. So I now have 4.5 layers in a case meant for 3 layers. The case still zips, but I wonder if I am compressing the foam so much that it is affecting the feel. I have talalay latex, which always felt springy to me, but I am wondering if this made it more springy? Or if this is bad for the foam? |
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It would likely allow you to "sink down" more as it would likely slowly compress over the course of the night so it would make the support layers softer. This one is a little difficult to answer definitively because it would depend to some degree on how "sensitive" the memory foam was and how much heat reached it over the course of the night but I would guess it would compress "at some point" and when it did it would take "priority" in the "order of compression". Underneath the soft Talalay it may initially feel firmer (unmelted) but as heat reached it it could add to your cradle over time. All of this would depend on how much it reacts to heat (visco) and how much it reacts to pressure (elastic). Ice will melt with pressure for example not just heat ... and different memory foam formulations have different properties. Phoenix PS: there is an actual science behind all of this called Rheology and in the case of viscoelasticity it can get pretty complicated. With memory foam there is a property called creep which makes it especially difficult to predict in middle layers. This creep and it's low elasticity are what gives memory foam the small amount of "support" it does have and why you don't sink "all the way through it" as you would with honey. Enough to say that memory foam is "creepy" ... in more ways than one (laughing). This message was modified Dec 30, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix, I just ordered the dunlop from Sleepez. Altho I keep thinking now how funny it is that this is essentially a progressive layering, when all along I think you were more favoring the differential layering for me. Thats why I thought I should buy 2 firm pieces, so I could do 4-4.5" soft over 6" firm (differential). So I sure hope this progressive scheme works! Steve |
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It sort of has elements of both. We are using Dunlop in the middle which has a fairly large differential with soft Talalay (especially with deeper progression) but it is progressive in the sense that we are using the top of it for part of the comfort layer. The difference between the bottom and the middle ("xfirm" under medium) is also "in between" ... but as big a differential as possible. Probably fair to say we are using a "progressive differential" approach with "bigger jumps" than a pure progressive approach :). I'm looking forward to when you get to sleep on this What was the ILD of the "firm" Dunlop they had? Phoenix This message was modified Dec 30, 2010 by Phoenix
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If we had used a more "pure" differential approach, we would have needed a firmer layer in the middle and a thicker comfort layer which would have involved buying more foam. I also believe that "progressive" elements using layer thickness as well as ILD's can be more "accurate" but it's more difficult to build because there are more "variables" involved. In your case I believe that what we are doing will be more accurate (perhaps with a "final adjustment") than what would have been possible with a more pure differential approach. Your willingness to "experiment" and provide really good feedback was also what made this possible :) Phoenix This message was modified Dec 30, 2010 by Phoenix
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The dunlop firm is 38-40. BTW I asked shaun if he felt like the "firm" side of his dunlop was really significantly firmer than the soft side. He said he would be shocked if most people could tell a difference, especially down a few layers. He also said that the label side isn't necessarily the soft side; they just grab some foam, stick a label on it and ship it. The one possible problem I foresee is that this will put 2 dunlops on my side and only one on my wife's side. Since the dunlops are theoretically a different height than the talalays that could potentially be a problem. In which case I would probably try the medium talalay in the middle, and if that didn't work buy her another dunlop too. But obviously that's a wait and see thing... Steve |
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I talked to Shawn about whether there was a reliable way to tell which is the "firm" side of the cut Dunlop he sold (you never know for sure if it's not a full core) and he was the one who told me that it would "probably" be the side with the label up but that he didn't know for sure. He also said he had never been asked this question before. (reply #46) I also doubt it could be "felt" in terms of "softness" with a 3" layer, but it could make a difference depending on the type of Dunlop it was, in terms of how far you sink in. These kinds of "adjustments" are trying for small increments in 3" layers but sometimes a couple of small increments can make a difference. Savvy rest (and some others) even "promotes" flipping their Dunlop 3" layers as a way of adjusting firmness. As far as the Dunlop core thickness it would depend on who makes it. Lots of them are between 5.5" and 6". The latex green is 5.9" (15 cm) so if that's what it was there wouldn't be too much difference. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 30, 2010 by Phoenix
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Just to clarify what I mean by "small increments" ... if you were sinking down say 1/2" beyond the point (your threshhold) where you woke up in the morning in pain from being out of alignment over the course of hours, then flipping 2 layers to a "firm side" where both layers compressed slightly less (@ 1/4" each) could very well make a difference ... even though you wouldn't feel much or even any difference when you lay on it for a short while or when you went to sleep in terms of pressure relief or "softness". These small increments are really a matter of "playing the odds" and doing whatever you can to slightly increase them in your favor even though in most circumstances they may not be enough by themselves. This can sometimes make a bigger difference than most would imagine if it happens to "take you back" to the other side of your "threshhold" ... especially in combination with other changes that go in the "same direction" that may not be enough by themselves. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 31, 2010 by Phoenix
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Just wanted to update. Received the firm-dunlop layer and the new all-cotton cover on Friday. Put the firm-dunlop on the bottom of my stack (replacing a med-dunlop), with a med-dunlop and a soft-talalay on top. I don't think I feel much of a difference from when the bottom was med-dunlop, but I think I need to give it a few more days. Unfortunately I spent a few days after New Year's on a really bad mattress (on vacation) and my back is still tweaked from that, so no conclusions possible yet. My initial impression is that it does feel a little firmer (we were hoping the firm bottom might change the compression of each layer making things actually feel softer). One thing I seem to notice is that instead of just shoulder pressure I'm actually feeling some hip and rib pressure now too. So maybe that's good, because we are spreading the pressure more? Anyway, like I said I think its too early to judge. I will say I like the cotton cover a lot. The wool cover was nice but I think it compressed pretty quickly and you just can't really even it out again since it doesn't detach and you can't really shake it out or wash it or put it in the sun. The cotton feels great and I can't see how it would compress. Steve |
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My initial impression is that this is good news. If the pressure is being "evened out" that means that your shoulders are sinking in more relative to your hips. Even though this may feel a little firmer, it seems to be "acting" softer for your shoulders which is what we want. The firm would also stop your hips from sinking in as much which means that we may get the "even softness" without sacrificing alignment. The new cover may also be helping your shoulders sink in more. If the pressure stays "evened out" and you are in alignment over he course of the night but there is still not enough overall softness on top, then we can look at adding another inch of soft if we need to. Let me know how things feel after you have "recovered" for a few days :) Phoenix This message was modified Jan 10, 2011 by Phoenix
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Hi, There are many discussions here about what is between you and the top comfort layer affecting feel dramatically. Search St. Dormeir or Natura to find them. I was shocked to stumble on this fact with help from folks here. I would attribute at least a 20% improvement for just a sheet over memory foam instead of even a basic, thin, old fashioned cotton pad that was 15 years old and less than an eight inch thick, in my case. The softer top layers support by wrapping around your body, the softer memory foams (I am using 1 in of 4lb on top right now) conform the most. A firm stitched top of commercial mattress can completely defeat the softer foam value. A tight cover or tight fitting sheet can reduce conformability. I tried a thin cotton sheet blanket and even that was too firm for me... Picture a sausage. The stuff inside is soft, but packed tightly enough into the skin.. it can be very hard. Uhhh... just leave it at that.
I just ordered the St. Dormeir cover, which is reported to be the strethiest cover you can buy... can';t be felt, but is filled with washable wool, which supposedly can actually be cooler in summer, warmer in winter. I hope so. About $200 and non returnable. I'll be selling it here if I don't like it. Good luck on your pursuit. In case you haven't found them, there is a sticky at the top of the forum on Sandman, Jimsocal, and Budgy's mattress surgery... with tons of good information. Also many good posts as you are probably aware of folks' experience with the "professional stack" mattresses like Sleepez.
shovel/paul |
