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(Note added in March 2012: Gave up on the old mattress & bought a new one. Added to this thread for continuity.) ======================================= (Note added in Jan. 2012: The topper-search saga turned into a mattress-surgery saga. Mattress surgery details are farther down in the thread.) --------------------------------------------------------- I'm looking for opinions on the next way to tweak my toppers. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Here's the current setup: Stats: 50-year-old woman, about 5'6", 120-125 pounds; side and back sleeper, but mostly side. A little joint pain in the hips now and then, but no serious illnesses or injuries to work around (knock on wood). (The 2" 32ILD topper is a new purchase. I read some old forum threads that I'd saved on my PC; waffled between 32ILD and 28ILD; thought about getting an inch of each; but that was more expensive, and I was most worried about getting something that would turn out to be too soft, like my previous attempts, so I went with the 32ILD.) So: With just those 3" of latex, I think my hips & back are OK, but my shoulders still get too crunched and I wake up with some arm numbness. When I add my 1"-thick polyfill fiberbed on top of the latex, my shoulders are good, but my hips sink down a little too far -- because this fiberbed is several years old and has flattened in just the hip area -- so I wake up with some low back pain. (The rest of the fiberbed is still in great shape.) One option: I thought about getting a 1" 20ILD layer from FoamByMail and adding it on top of the 3" of latex I already have. Recent posts seem to imply that FBM's quality has gotten better and more reliable than when I was here on the forums 2 years ago. But: Since I pretty much bottom out on the 24ILD layer, I'm skeptical that a 20ILD layer would help or would balance things out. (If I put the 1" 24ILD layer on the floor, my bony hips & shoulders go right down to the floor. If I fold that topper in half and lie on that, I still go right down to the floor. That makes me wonder about all the posts I see about 19ILD and even 14ILD layers -- I can't quite fathom how those would be useful, so I'm curious about that.) Another option: Get scrap foam and add some just in the hip area, under the part of the fiberbed that has flattened. SLAB sells some scrap latex of various sizes and ILDs. Maybe something like a 28ILD scrap under the hips would work? Another option: A 1" 28ILD layer (or equivalent in 100% natural latex) between the 24 and the 32? I'd like to avoid memory foam for now, because of the off-gassing issue, but won't completely rule it out. Thoughts? Other ideas? Thanks! Edited to add: 1) A thing called "Oodles" that had latex "noodles" in it -- great idea but poor execution. It would have been terrific if it had had at least twice as many baffles in it to prevent the noodles from shifting around within each baffled section. I half-heartedly attempted to hand-sew in more baffles but didn't know what I was doing and the thing is big & awkward, so that didn't work. (I used it on top of the 24ILD topper.) 2) Below the 1" 24ILD topper -- a 2" Dunlop latex topper from Overstock.com, unknown ILD & manufacturer. Wonderful for a while... but then it cratered in the hip area. Did not think latex was supposed to do that, but it did. [Edited to add: this was medium-firm synthetic, or mostly synthetic, Dunlop. Natural stuff would hold up much better, I'm sure.] This message was modified Mar 15, 2012 by Catherine
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JasonRatky wrote: ...you know the mattress itself, as-is, could not be among the confounding variables...... Actually, I'm now fairly sure that the mattress is one of the confounding variables. If I take all the soft latex and the fiber bed off the mattress -- which I did -- and leave only the medium-ILD latex on there -- which I did -- and I still wake up in a sinkhole -- which I do -- then the mattress has to be the problem, right? (I suppose it could be the latex, but I've got an inch of N3/27 ILD, bought a couple months ago, an inch of 32 ILD Talatech, bought recently, and an inch of 24 ILD Talatech, bought 2 years ago but still in good shape as far as I can tell. None of that should be cratering. I could try taking everything off and sleeping on just the mattress, to be sure, but that would be pretty uncomfortable. We'll see.) Even after I put a thin piece of plywood between the box spring and the mattress -- across the hip zone -- and put a folded-up old mattress pad on top of that -- to boost that zone some more -- I am waking up in a sinkhole, and with a very sore lower back. It's not a big enough sinkhole to activate the warranty, and during the day, I think the compressed foam (in the mattress) expands a bit, so the mattress looks relatively flat. There's not a giant body-impression in it. But I am clearly waking up in a sinkhole... which would certainly explain why none of my zoning attempts have been working. (D'oh!) Methinks I shall be cutting a slit in the mattress top very soon, so I can peek at the innards and see what's going on in there.... At this point, I've got nothing to lose. This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by Catherine
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Most likely the PU foam in the mattress has gone bad. Even firm PU foam will go soft after a while, especially if low density and on the top layer. I really doubt the latex has gone bad. Do you know what foam is inside the mattress? 9" flippable does not sound like a lot. What brand? |
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sandman wrote: Most likely the PU foam in the mattress has gone bad. Even firm PU foam will go soft after a while, especially if low density and on the top layer. I really doubt the latex has gone bad. Do you know what foam is inside the mattress? 9" flippable does not sound like a lot. What brand? I believe the foam is low density, and it is in the top layer. I couldn't stand it anymore and just cut open a slit in the top panel, near the edge but above the piping, 'cause I wanted to see what's inside. There's about an inch of PU foam quilted into the top, and then about an inch of convoluted foam beneath that. Then there's just about a half-inch (maybe less) of dacron, directly over the insulator-pad thingie, which I think is directly over the springs. Here's a link to the current specs for the model of mattress I have: Elegant, from Jamestown Mattress, a local independent bedding manufacturer. Possible that the specs have changed slightly since I bought the mattress in 2009 -- I think my coil count is higher -- but the foam parts of the specs probably haven't changed much. (I'm guessing here.) At this point, I'd still recommend Jamestown Mattress -- everyone I've encountered there has been knowledgeable & friendly & straightforward; the price was good; they're *not* one of those chain stores that have "lowest prices of the season" sales every other weekend; and the low-density PU foam is probably the only weak spot in the mattress construction. (Unfortunately, it seems that just about every innerspring-mattress-maker uses some low-density PU foam.) Jamestown also makes some latex mattresses, memory foam mattresses, and mattresses with various combinations of materials. Next time, I'd probably just ask them to custom-make a mattress for me, either with coils & latex or just latex, and have them leave out the PU foam in the top layers.
At any rate... now that I've gone this far, I might as well do a foamectomy. Probably not today, though -- I want to go a fabric or crafts store and get some No-Fray stuff first. (I was just in Joann's Fabrics yesterday, but didn't buy the No-Fray stuff 'cause I didn't think I was doing mattress surgery right away. Guess I'm goin' back there soon....) I also need to do some other things around the house today, though.
---- Follow-up on the fiber-beds I ordered a week or so ago: This message was modified Dec 29, 2011 by Catherine
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"...and I still wake up in a sinkhole" It's just as well you decided to the mattress surgery, since no topper I know of is helpful for a bed with sinkholes, but are mainly used to soften a too-firm mattress. Putting a topper on a sagging mattress just means you just end up in a cushier sinkhole! Hope you will update on your progress. |
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DoreenA wrote: Putting a topper on a sagging mattress just means you just end up in a cushier sinkhole! I know! I hate to think about what I've been doing to my back & my hip all these months that I've been fighting with the toppers! Part of the problem is that the mattress doesn't show a big, deep body-impression. There's a sinkhole by morning, but no permanent huge crater that screams "time for mattress surgery!" So I really didn't think the mattress was the problem... until the last few mornings.
Hope you will update on your progress. Yup, I will. |
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There is not a lot of foam, but perhaps enough to cause problems. Since it is quilted into the top, you may have to completely remove that as well, if you end up doing surgery. I found that was an issue for me. You can try cutting it on 3 sides and leave it attached on one side, then replace the foam, and try it with and without the quilted top. I ended up removing my whole top because it did cause problems for me (and it was hot as well). Another issue is the fact that it is two sided. I don't think the foam on the bottom side will cause a major effect, but hard to say. I also wonder about the coil system. My Sealy queen (pretty firm coils) has 782 14 gauge coils. It looks like yours has less and thinner coils, although I am not totally sure of your coil count. It is is possible they are not providing enough support as well. You may want to try to estimate the number if you do the surgery. The test would be to see how firm it is with just the coils and a fairly firm piece of latex. |
Catherine wrote:
Actually, I'm now fairly sure that the mattress is one of the confounding variables. If I take all the soft latex and the fiber bed off the mattress -- which I did -- and leave only the medium-ILD latex on there -- which I did -- and I still wake up in a sinkhole -- which I am -- then the mattress has to be the problem, right? (I suppose it could be the latex, but I've got an inch of N3/27 ILD, bought a couple months ago, an inch of 32 ILD Talatech, bought recently, and an inch of 24 ILD Talatech, bought 2 years ago but still in good shape as far as I can tell. None of that should be cratering. I could try taking everything off and sleeping on just the mattress, to be sure, but that would be pretty uncomfortable. We'll see.) Even after I put a thin piece of plywood between the box spring and the mattress -- across the hip zone -- and put a folded-up old mattress pad on top of that -- to boost that zone some more -- I am waking up in a sinkhole, and with a very sore lower back. It's not a big enough sinkhole to activate the warranty, and during the day, I think the compressed foam (in the mattress) expands a bit, so the mattress looks relatively flat. There's not a giant body-impression in it. But I am clearly waking up in a sinkhole... which would certainly explain why none of my zoning attempts have been working. (D'oh!) Methinks I shall be cutting a slit in the mattress top very soon, so I can peek at the innards and see what's going on in there.... At this point, I've got nothing to lose. |
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sandman wrote: There is not a lot of foam, but perhaps enough to cause problems. Since it is quilted into the top, you may have to completely remove that as well, if you end up doing surgery. ... You can try cutting it on 3 sides and leave it attached on one side, then replace the foam, and try it with and without the quilted top. I ended up removing my whole top because it did cause problems for me (and it was hot as well). I'm mid-surgery now. I've got the quilted cover cut on 3 sides, and I'm tempted to just go ahead and cut it off entirely. It doesn't have tons of foam quilted into it -- about an inch -- but it's squishy low-density stuff, so I'd think that it would have to be part of "the weakest link," along with the convoluted poly foam I've already taken out. And the quilted panel probably interferes a bit with the feeling of the latex. Decisions, decisions....
Another issue is the fact that it is two sided. I don't think the foam on the bottom side will cause a major effect, but hard to say. I'm leaving the plywood and the folded-up old mattress pad between the foundation and the mattress, so that should help combat the compressed foam on what is now the bottom of the mattress.
I also wonder about the coil system. My Sealy queen (pretty firm coils) has 782 14 gauge coils. It looks like yours has less and thinner coils, although I am not totally sure of your coil count. It is is possible they are not providing enough support as well. You may want to try to estimate the number if you do the surgery. The test would be to see how firm it is with just the coils and a fairly firm piece of latex. Can't see the coils, because of the fiber-pads, or insulator pads, whatever they're called, over them. (They're attached in some way, and I don't want to detach them.) So the coil count might remain a mystery. This is a full-size bed, though, not a queen, so even if it does have just 528 coils, I would think they'd last a while. The mattress manufacturer has "Good," "Better," and "Best" product lines, and this mattress is in the "Better" line. Came with a 10-year warranty, I believe, so even with the foam giving out, those springs should -- theoretically -- last a few years, especially with me being on the light side. [Edited to add: With just the coils and a sheet of latex, the mattress feels pretty firm and springy.] I've got all the latex spread out in my bedroom, and am fiddling with zoning now. I will still need some zoning. More later... This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by Catherine
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I wrote last night: I will still need some zoning. Or maybe not....
When trying different zoning & layering configurations, I've been checking my spinal alignment by using mirrors. (Portable long mirror propped up against the wall, and a handheld mirror used to see my spine reflected in the other mirror.) I'm really not seeing much of a difference with any of my various configurations. (One new element to play with: a 1" layer of the FBM 20 ILD, which actually feels more firm than my 32 ILD Talatech scrap from SLAB.) Around 11 PM, I got fed up with all of this fiddling, after spending all afternoon and all evening on it, and finally just dispensed with all the zoning attempts. I didn't use or need zoning during my first year on the mattress, so... maybe I just thought I needed zoning recently, when what I actually needed was to get the PU foam out of the mattress? Damned if I know. What I finally wound up sleeping on last night (top to bottom): This arrangement was not great on the pressure points -- no big surprise there. My shoulders & hips are a bit sore this morning, but my arms did not fall asleep, so that's something. Still some slight lower-back pain -- makes me wonder if I now have too much stuff between the mattress & the foundation. (I added a piece of the convoluted PU foam there, across the hip area.) But I did *not* feel like I was waking up in a sinkhole, and I didn't feel like I'd crippled my back overnight. So, next things to try: taking out that piece of foam between mattress & foundation; and switching the 1" layer of 14 ILD with the 2" layer of 14 ILD. I'm still not fond of that stuff, and I think 19-22 ILD would be better, but the 14 is what I have, so I'll try it next. If I go right through the 2" of 14 ILD, then I believe it will be time to go over to the dark side and add an inch of 4lb or 5lb memory foam, and hope the off-gassing doesn't kill me. (An inch of memory foam will likely be cheaper than an inch or two of 19 ILD latex from SLAB or 1.5" of 22-24 ILD from SleepEZ.) When I bought the 20ILD latex from FBM, I also bought a 3" thick 5lb memory foam seat cushion for my office chair. I don't think I'd want to sleep on 3" of the stuff, but it ain't bad as a seat cushion; it came with a nice terry-cloth cover; and there's no off-gassing that I can detect (i.e., no chemical smell).
Some notes about the FBM 20 ILD latex: it's full size (not shorted at all); no seams; no tears. Not at all comparable to SLAB's 19 ILD; as other people here have said, the FBM latex feels much firmer than that. Pretty sure it's blended Talalay, not all natural. Not sure if I'll keep it -- it might be useful as a transition layer between the medium-soft latex and the mattress coils... or it might not. This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by Catherine
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Probably best to try to reduce as many moving parts as possible and try to find out if it gives enough support for your back. You may have to give the current configuration a few days to see how your back does. Some issues to think about: Is your box spring/foundation firm enough or does it sag? Is it a traditional box spring? Why do you need eggrcate between the box spring and mattress? Normally you should not need something like that. Are the mattress springs firm enough? Is the foam on the other side of the mattress causing sagging? You may have to elimate that as well. The latex you have above the springs sounds like it should be okay. If you get everything firm enough, you might want to try adding 1-2" of memory foam for pressure relief and comfort. After that, if it seems pretty good, but your shoulders seem too jammed, then you might consider adding a softer zone under the shoulders.
p.s. My current configuration over pretty firm Sealy coils is 2" of 32 talalay (~20 cutout under shoulders) + 1" 5lb. Sensus memory foam + 1" 19 talalay + 1" 5.9lb. memory foam, covered with Natura washable wool mattress pad. This is a bit softer than I have used recently, but in winter I like it a bit softer and cozier. I tend to find 5" over the coils is best for me, but as I have said my coils and box spring are pretty firm (one sided ~760 queen interlaced 14 gauge). This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by sandman
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