Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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Why is mattress selection close to impossible for a anyone with low back pain? why are mattress makers using different names for the same mattresses in different stores? Why are they making it so hard to compare mattresses? Is this some kind of scam? Why is it that man has gone to moon but mattress makers can't make a mattress for people with low back pain? I have a herniated disk and wake up with aches and extremely tired every day. Life is hell or close to it. It can't get any worse. thanks for honest replies. This message was modified Jan 25, 2010 by lowbacpain
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Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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cityskies wrote: Budgy and others, do you have thoughts on Shifman, basic level (e.g., the Shifman Chateau, which is a firm all-cotton innerspring with minimum padding)? I heard the original family sold the company several years ago and since then the quality has suffered, but haven't been able to verify. Am trying to decide between this and a horsehair innerspring. Just thought I would give you another reply on this one....I think if you want to get a really good quality American made mattress and mostly filled with cotton batting. You really ought to check out a brand called Royal-Pedic. http://www.royal-pedic.com/ One of their reps actually made a visit to my store to see if we would carry their product. I have to say if I didn't have spacing restrictions at the moment I was ready to floor atleast a couple of their beds. And some day I may re-consider the possibility. I had access to their american pricing sheets, I think they would work out to be much better priced than a Shifman and are truly made to a very similar standard of quality. I know that they have been regarded by many to be the best mattress made in the US. They also make organic versions of most of their beds if this is a concern to you as well. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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It does look like Royal-pedic uses high quality materials: cotton, wool, natural latex, a high coil count of double tempered steel. So, I guess there are some quality innersprings out there that most people aren't even aware of. You just have to look outside the major brands. I assume they cost a fair amount more, but to a certain extent you do get what you pay for. Out of curiosity, do you know the range of what a queen size would sell for in the retail market? |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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i think they are probably going to be high 2000's or so to start.(that could be for the organic version though that would cost more) but thats a far cry better than the over $5000 for the Shifman queen I found. yeah actually I just found a place that sells it. http://organicsleepproducts.com/rp-all-cotton-mattress-set.html |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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Dear lowbacpain, I know exactly what you're going through and I also feel your pain. I have been in the mattress manufacturing business for 20+ years. We have used latex foam, memory foam, innerspring units, gel, polyurethane foam, cotton, and a mixture of all of these in one form or the other. What I discovered is, that there is no one make or model of any mattress that will fit everyone's needs. For example, it has been my experience that combining a convoluted medium ILD poly-foam or latex in a variety of thicknesses on top of a 12-1/2 gauge innerspring unit gives you the best of both worlds when you suffer from back pain. I don't know where you live, but you could probably find a "Mom and Pop" factory direct in your area that could be of great help to you. Good luck! This message was modified Jan 31, 2010 by brothersbedding
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Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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budgy wrote: Im sure it would be really confusing and people would probably run out the doors if I just told them what the specs were on a mattress. like someone lays down on a bed and says 'this feels good what's in it?" 1218 independent pocket coils, 15.5 gauge of wire, 12cm tall, 7 turns in the coil, foam encased, 2" foam underneath the coils, 2" "firm foam", 2 1" layers of soft foam, half inch latex, half inch memory foam, 2" super soft convoluted foam, 33oz hollo fibre! But what people should be made aware of...at some point. 1. Coil mattresses (from normal brands) are quilted with various layers of polyurethane foam. 2. Polyurethane foam breaks down. 3. The more polyurethane foam you have the more serious your permanent body indentations will be and the sooner they show up. 4. A half inch of memory foam or latex does nothing to prevent the other 6" of poly foam in the pillow top from breaking down. From here, I can show people alternatives. I myself am not a specs guy, I know the specs very well, and actually so well to the point that I realize the important specs are never provided by a manufacturer which is how long will the mattress last, how well will it breathe, will it conform to the body and relieve pressure, will it be firm enough to keep your heavier regions from sinking too much? These are things that a spec sheet alone cannot tell you. When it does come down to buying a coil mattress which quite frankly is the most confusing type of mattress to buy, you should buy the TYPE of coil that works best with your body, you shouldn't buy the coil count or the gauge of wire. Budgy, can you expand on this statement: "you should buy the TYPE of coil that works best with your body, you shouldn't buy the coil count or the gauge of wire. " How does one know what type of coil works best with one's body? Are you saying that in a given line, say Serta, that their cheaper mattress with X number of coils is not going to have better springs than the more expensive one with more coils per same size? I always thought that - given a similar mattress in all other aspects - more coils was better in a Bonnel type coil mattress, for example. Also, I agree that the average Jane Doe wasn't want to know the specs of the mattress (coil count, ILD of foam, etc.). But I do think that if they began to print them on the mattress and made them available, a good percentage of people who I will call "smart consumers" would pay attention to that, learn about it and it would help them make a decision between one mattress and another. Do you disagree with that? I mean, you could be right. Another mattress sales guy who was here for awhile said the same thing: that people do not need or want to know the specs, it will only confuse them and mean nothing to them. My thought is that its a bit like computers: no one originally knew what RAM was or what chip speed was or what different types of RAM mean, but nowadays a good percentage of people have learned about these specs and what they mean, and certainly it helps those who know, choose the best computer for the price, by being able to compare them. I do realize that with mattresses it is all about how it feels and the things you listed are of course the MOST important basic things to know. But I still think they should list the "ingredients" for those who want to know and want to learn. I think if they did, eventually people would have a more sophisticated understanding of what mattresses are made of and what makes one better than another. THEN they have to lay on it, etc... Just my 2 cents. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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I guess I was really just saying that the 4 different types of coils all work quite differently regardless of the specs. Pocket coils, offset coils, bonnell coils, or continuous. I personally don't carry really any continuous coil products because they are very cheap. I sometimes even simplify things even more than this for people because realistically offset, bonnell and continuous springs are all similar in the aspect that the coils hinge along a lacing wire, and a pocket coil does not use a lacing wire. So I sometimes lump all 3 of the others together for simplicity sake. Comparing coil count and gauge of wire within one type of coil is somewhat fair and reasonable to do, however you cannot compare coil count and gauge of wire directly between 2 inherently different designs. This message was modified Feb 1, 2010 by budgy
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Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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Absolutely fascinating thread guys! Constant low back pain is so debilitating it is just awful. I suffered with it for a long time myself. I know exactly what you are talking about. Doctors sent me to physical therapists who hurt my ligaments with their testing, and promoted back exercises to help me strengthen my back. Did not help. I knew in my gut it was from the bed(s) I slept on. Went through quite a few, spent way too much money uselessly. Felt horribly frustrated. Where to turn...every bed promises what it does not deliver. I was going through new beds every three months. My husband thought I was kinda nuts, called me Princess and the Pea. Beds didn't bother him. Finally visited a hotel where to my great surprise, slept on a mattress that healed my back in two nights. It was amazing. I did my research and found it had offset coils, and a box spring with springs. It was an S brand, but I was not going to pay $5K for one similar to it, no way. I had one made to my specs. I like it, my back is good. I did not choose the foam that I knew I needed so have had to work with it a bit, but my mistake. Overall, great bed. Find a mom and pop bedmaker and get one made that you like. Or do mattress surgery if you have good coils and a brave soul. My mattress surgery result is at my stepdaughter's house...she loves the bed, but I did not care for marshall coils. Cutting it open did no damage other than cosmetic. As to why it is this way...profit, baby profit! It's all about right now, in hand, promise a better mousetrap, profit!!! They don't care about how we sleep really. Good luck. Kait |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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budgy wrote: Just thought I would give you another reply on this one....I think if you want to get a really good quality American made mattress and mostly filled with cotton batting. You really ought to check out a brand called Royal-Pedic. http://www.royal-pedic.com/ One of their reps actually made a visit to my store to see if we would carry their product. I have to say if I didn't have spacing restrictions at the moment I was ready to floor atleast a couple of their beds. And some day I may re-consider the possibility. I had access to their american pricing sheets, I think they would work out to be much better priced than a Shifman and are truly made to a very similar standard of quality. I know that they have been regarded by many to be the best mattress made in the US. They also make organic versions of most of their beds if this is a concern to you as well. Just thought I would tell you guys about one more option although it is very rare. A company I deal with called Green Sleep has started making their own hand made pocket coils, they are honeycomb nested with a pretty high spring count and surprisingly thick steel given the number of springs. I just got my shipment of beds in today, I believe I am one of only a handful of dealers in North America that carries them at the moment. I just put out one bed and it is built incredibly well. The base system is a slatted dowel type of base that uses natural rubber underneath slats and dowels to provide a suspension, very trick, everything is left wide open to allow lots of air to move in and out. On top of this there are two twin XL mattress cores that house the springs, surrounding the edges of these units is rubberized coconut fibre as an edge system....this stuff is incredibly firm and long lasting. Around all of this is wool batting, its been hand tufted all the way through and there are even linen turning handles to help flip the mattress cores, its all fully reversible. finally after all this they make a separate 'pillowtop' that is one piece and sits on both the spring units, its a 3" piece of soft natural dunlop rubber put in an organic cotton velour, it too has been tufted through and is fully reversible. lots of wool on the top of it, and less on the bottom side so you can flip it if you want it to be firmer. This mattress was shipped in 3 boxes, its pretty heavy, somewhere around 200 lbs...but thats a lot considering its about 12" thick. just thought id share my excitement, because I am thrilled to carry the product, hopefully more dealers will carry something like this near you guys in the future. Its not cheap but the quality of materials and craftsmanship is superb. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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Budgy - WOW! That sounds like a really great mattress! May I ask what the asking price is? Not that I am going to drive to Canada and bring it home from your store, but just to have an idea in case a friend wants to buy such a mattress. Do they have a web site? That brings me to this question: Although right now my mattress seems to be Great, with the Talalay layer replacing the HR foam I had there, I wonder if it might be even better (though I'm not likely to change it any time soon!) if I had a different box spring. I am using my old Sealy box springs under my Englander springs/diy mattress. I never really felt that the box springs matter much, but I've heard it say that they can. I assume that if you had some really custom built mattress and box then it might well make a difference, but on a Sealy/Englander/etc. type set up, probably not. As I recall, these 7 year old or so Sealy Box Springs are just a box made from wood and on top is some kind of metal wire system going across it but basically it's wood, with maybe just a LITTLE give. I wonder if I should try putting something like a firm piece of wood in between me and the box springs. But what kind of wood would I use if I did? (this question is for the DIY'ers among us) I could try putting it on the floor one night but I really have NO place to store the box in the meantime if I do, I would literally have to stand it up in the living room and then move it back and forth til I decided! Anyway, just curious as to how you feel about cheap mattresses and their need for box springs? Until I had the Sealy I never even used a box spring, I just put the mattress on the floor. I never liked bed frames - the metal frame kind - either! Too bouncy for me. So I have the box springs sitting on the floor. Oh... one more question for Budgy: Why did the S companies give up completely on making good mattreses, in your opinion? What I mean is this: Okay, the wanted to make them cheaper so people would not get "sticker shock" and be able to still "get a good bed for $1000". Okay, fine. But what I don't get is, why couldn't they have at least made a bed something like mine (basic springs but with all latex on top instead of Peee-Yew foam and a cotton or wool top). Wouldn't that have been a quality product they could produce for not all that much more money? I mean, I'm only using 2" of latex on top of a VERY firm 1/2"layer of HR foam on the bottom (I wonder if this layer is even necessary). So I don't see why they wouldn't at least try to make something like this, with no pu foam in it? Wouldn't they be able to sell such a mattress at a price point that some people would pay? In other words, why throw out the baby with the bath water?! It seems they just threw in the towel and are not even TRYING to make long-lasting quality mattresses anymore, not even as a "top of the line" item. This message was modified Feb 2, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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Kait wrote: Absolutely fascinating thread guys! Kait, what is the name of the company you got your mattress from again? Do they have a web site?Constant low back pain is so debilitating it is just awful. I suffered with it for a long time myself. I know exactly what you are talking about. Doctors sent me to physical therapists who hurt my ligaments with their testing, and promoted back exercises to help me strengthen my back. Did not help. I knew in my gut it was from the bed(s) I slept on. Went through quite a few, spent way too much money uselessly. Felt horribly frustrated. Where to turn...every bed promises what it does not deliver. I was going through new beds every three months. My husband thought I was kinda nuts, called me Princess and the Pea. Beds didn't bother him. Finally visited a hotel where to my great surprise, slept on a mattress that healed my back in two nights. It was amazing. I did my research and found it had offset coils, and a box spring with springs. It was an S brand, but I was not going to pay $5K for one similar to it, no way. I had one made to my specs. I like it, my back is good. I did not choose the foam that I knew I needed so have had to work with it a bit, but my mistake. Overall, great bed. Find a mom and pop bedmaker and get one made that you like. Or do mattress surgery if you have good coils and a brave soul. My mattress surgery result is at my stepdaughter's house...she loves the bed, but I did not care for marshall coils. Cutting it open did no damage other than cosmetic. As to why it is this way...profit, baby profit! It's all about right now, in hand, promise a better mousetrap, profit!!! They don't care about how we sleep really. Good luck. Kait Kait, I had the same problem as you: My back was killing me all the time and I was seeing massage therapists, physical therapists, chiropractors, acupuncturists, you name it. Went through about 5 mattresses none of which worked for me. My wife thought I was nuts, constantly changing mattresses. (Although, at least she was somewhat supportive as she didn't like most of them we tried, either!) But here's where we differ: I finally settled on pure foam. I didn't like latex as an all-foam mattress (tried a Flobeds), so I decided to make my own "flobed" out of HR foam.  We bought various layers of 1" HR foam and divided them into thirds so we could do zoning and I figured: "This HAS to work! There HAS to be some combination of ILD's of foams and zones that will work for me!" So this is when my wife really thought I was nuts (and I had to admit it did seem nutty!  ) I would change it almost every night sometimes, for weeks on end, then stay with something for a week or two that didn't hurt me TOO bad, then when it started hurting again I would do an overhaul. You probably remember at least some of this from a couple years back. Part of my constant changing of the mattress, I attribute to the fact that I was using too much memory foam, and lousy memory foam at that. I finally learned that lesson. But anyway, so where I differed from Kait was that I kept saying, "We DON'T need springs!" My wife kept saying we needed springs and I kept saying she was wrong and kept trying to make all-foam work for me. But then, when we went to springs, the Sealy we bought worked for awhile and then it quit working. That's when I did my first mattress surgery. But still I was using memory foam and too much of it so that wasn't working. Then I got it to working pretty well and about that time, the Sealy springs gave out, or seemed to. That led me to buying the Englander, and since then things have been much better, except for the last few months when my HR foam was dying. Wish I had bought a GOOD well-built mattress instead of wasting all my time with HR foam and all-latex mattresses. But actually I did look into a RoyalPedic at one point, but just could not afford it. Or would not spend the requested money for it, in any case... Now my mattress seems to be working great! Finally! ... All this because the S companies quit making good mattresses! This message was modified Feb 2, 2010 by jimsocal
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