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I have been reading with great interest the threads on this forum. My wife and I are looking for a mattress for one of our sons (we have six kids) who has very bad allergies. He is currently 8 years old and weighs around 70-75lbs. We are going to put the mattress on a solid wood base of his bunk bed. The bottom bunk is full and the top if twin. We have an older "My First Sealy" twin on the top bunk. The bottom bunk base is one ich thick planed plywood with a thick maple veneer. I called SleepEz and spoke with Shawn after reading all of the glowing reviews. He seems like a nice man. The think that concerns me is that MANY people speak of being able to swap cores many months after they have been sleeping on them. I am concerned that latex cores that we would receive could have been in someone elses home and contain allergens, etc. I don't want to think about bodily fluids. Either there is a HUGE margin in latex cores so that Shawn can dispose of returned cores or people are getting layers that have been used by someone else. Does anyone have any insight into this? As for the mattress itself, do you think a firm, medium core of the 7000 series would be a good choice? I know he does not weigh much now, but we hope this mattress will last until he is ready to go to college. His younger brother will eventually be sleeping in this bed as well. He is currently only 19 months old so he has at least 6-9 months before he will also be sleeping on the latex mattress. Would the 7000 series also be strong enough to support an adult? I weigh around 200lbs and when we have bad storms the kids sometimes ask mom or dad to sleep in their room. I really don't want to bottom out. We can't afford much more than the 7000 series. We want something without flame retardants, but we don't have a lot of money either. Thank you to all in advance, |
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sandman wrote: I don't think most adults would be that comfortable on 5.6" - 6" of latex over a solid wood foundation. You probably would bottom out. However, most here have never tried anything like that, so hard to say for sure. A real box spring, with some actual spring to it would probably help. For a younger child, it might be okay.
I think in europe they may use thinner latex mattresses than in the U.S. (as does Ikea), so they must think it is okay. If you go that route, you may want to have them put in a slightly larger case (like the 8500), so you can add a little more if necessary. I think the 100% natural layers are slightly thicker than the blended latex layers (3" vs. 2.8"), so that might help a little. Thanks to everyone here who has more infor that me. |
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Here is the website where the information about untreated wool is contained: http://www.strobel.com/wool_burns.htm If what they say is true, then either our online companies are treating the wool with something (and not telling us) or we are not buying beds, but rather kits that we assemble in our homes. What do people think about this website and it's information. It sort of meshes with what the lady at Beloit Mattress told me. Is a doctors note the only way to get a truely chemical free bed? |
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There is a lot of conflicting information about fire retardency methods and it is hard to know what to believe. I read the same article as you mentioned and yet there are many other "equally credible sounding" articles that will say that 1.8 oz of compressed wool/sq yd will meet the requirements. It is true that the mattress/foundation has to meet the open flame test which replaced the smouldering cigarette test and that the open flame is simultaneously applied to both the top and side of the mattress using a specified "torch" (see page 4 here http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/frnotices/fr06/mattsets.pdf). Each mattress/foundation (if it is designed to be used with a specific one) prototype also has to be tested and any mattress cover cannot be certified unless it is part of a specific mattress design which has passed. The trickiest part is that what is called "inherent" materials (materials or fibers that have something added before manufacture as opposed to something added after it is made) are difficult to identify. There is no requirement to label any chemicals used as the regulatory agencies believe this would serve no "useful purpose" (their own words). I have my doubts if most wool would pass this test without an inherent additive and even if it did it would certainly need to be on the sides as well as on the top (the flame is applied to the side as well). There are several outlets which advertise RV mattresses to get around this but that too has certain qualifications attached and this (selling an RV mattress with regular dimensions) is usually an indication of more "shady" outlets. A mattress that is sold for home use ... even a do it yourself ... must meet the requirements for each specific construction. Visil is a rayon (wood fiber) material with a silica (quartz "sand") additive and barriers like this are sold by several companies. Milliken is an example. As a side note ... the bamboo fabrics that are sold as "natural" are really closer to a rayon material as they use "dissolved" bamboo fibers and then are blended with other fibers. They are not environmentally friendly at all ... even though they are quite nice. My personal opinion is that a good visil barrier is acceptable as I personally have some doubts that wool without any additives would pass and that the additives would be "hidden" whereas the visil is not and I believe that the additives which would be used in wool are more harmful (boron for example) than the visil material. This is compounded by the fact that it is difficult to know if some manufacturers have actually submitted their mattress prototypes for testing. It is pretty much buyer beware here. Having said all that ... I believe that in the end (although this is disputed by the "official agencies") that the materials used and the confusion surrounding compliance issues themselves cause more harm, health issues, and even fatalaties over the long term than the few hundred lives that are meant to be saved by the standard (I believe it is designed to save less than 300 lives and less than 2000 injuries per year but I didn't look up the specific numbers). They also certainly add to the expense of a mattress. The standard can be "avoided" with a doctor's prescription but this in many cases would require a "custom built" mattress. Some outlets sell mattresses that can only be purchased with a prescription. Another example of some official agency trying to "save us from ourselves" using regulations that do more harm than the problem they were designed to fix. Phoenix This message was modified Nov 10, 2010 by Phoenix
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moon1234 wrote:
Thanks to everyone here who has more infor that me. They also have these discount mattresses. The bottom 6" are dunlop, which is firmer for the same ILD. Also, the cover is just cotton (not really sure if it is a blend - you would have to ask about that) - no wool. For that one (or even the 8500), you might want to add a washable wool filled mattress pad. For the 8500, and a light person, I would probably go with the S/M/F that they usually recommend. You should ask Shawn though. In the dunlop discount one, I don't think I would even get firm at all, maybe S/M/M. I would note that some people are allergic to latex. I am not sure if that will be an issue for you.
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I agree with Phoenix's post. In my research on this, I have come to the conclusion that probably the only way to get a chem free-fire retardant free bed is with a doctor's prescription. Otherwise, manufacturers must meet the fire laws or face hefty fines. If you read the law, the only exception is with a doctor's prescription. It is very frustrating in the U.S. to find a non-toxic bed. One could purchase latex layers and put them together oneself and make a cover oneself. The strobel link is very informative. The fire laws were tightened in the last few years even though they were already more than sufficient. Mattresses now have to withstand a wide blowtorch for more than a minute. Imagine how much chemical or other fire retardant it takes to keep a fire from starting. Not stuff I want in my mattress. Unfortunately, companies are protected by "trade secrets" and do not have to disclose what chemicals are in your mattress. The book "Toxic Bedrooms" is an eye opener. Some companies admit to reusing the swapped layers, some don't. I guess I would ask them. Latex has a strong odor of rubber, because it is rubber. Genetically it seems, some folks can smell it and some can't. It bothers some people and not others. For talalay, they also put some synthetic vanilla in the vats to try to cover up the smell. This message was modified Nov 10, 2010 by jasmine
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Well I contacted SleepEZ and spoke with Shawn, Jeremy and Shawn's father who started the business. Shawn's father was very knowledgeable (I mean he really knows his stuff). He said that the flame test is looking more for the amount of heat supression vs not burning/no flames. He said the wool chars when it burns, and it does burn, but the char creates a very strong insulation later that helps to deflect heat even better. He continued on stating that when a flame is applied to wool from the top the wool does not burn like wood or cotton, rather it smoulders and creates a char layer that acts as the true heat insulator during a real fire. Since I did not know if this was true or not I did some research and found this to be accurate. While the strobel test shows wool burning, it was an unfair test as the wool was lit from the bottom and the flame burt UP the string. The better, and more accurate from a mattress point of use, would have been to light the top part of the wool and see if it would burn down. My guess would be that it would not, or if it did it would be slow and a char layer would form and put out any ongoing flame. If you think about it any flame a mattress would be exposed to, either from the side or top of the mattress, would be burning the top of the wool layer. This would then form a char layer which would enhance the insulating properties. Here is my original e-mail and the reply I received from Jeremy:
I also e-mailed Flobeds to see what their response was. They replied with a link to video of their burn test, the corresponding report, etc. I really wish more companies would provide this information. One thing I did notice was that in the report it lists the company that submitted the mattress for testing was Berkeley Ergonomics. I e-mailed them back and asked them about this. They said that they purchase their bed covers from them. They also stated they submitted their most flammable bed to them for testing. The video evidence really sells this for me. Here is the e-mail string from FloBeds: From: FloBeds [info@flobeds.com] Mathew, Berkeley Ergonomics is a company in California we contract out to do the sewing in our covers, ie quilting the organic wool into the organic cotton ticking. We offer visco as an option (which we don't recommend). Visco is much more flammable than latex, so we had them test our most flammable mattress, (latex topped w/ visco). At 10:14 AM 11/11/2010, you wrote: Thank you very much for this information. I do have a question though. The company in the report is listed as Berkeley Ergonomics. Do you resell their products or has the company changed names? They seem to be located in Canada, but I don't see any retail store so they seem to be a manufacturer that you buy from? Is that correct? I also noticed in the report that the bed tested contained Visco foam. Does it matter with Latex beds which type of materials are in the core or is the test solely for the outer cover? If the test is solely for the outer cover, then is that the item sourced from Berkeley Ergonomics? Thank you again, Matthew Becker -----Original Message----- From: FloBeds Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 11:40 AM To: Matthew Becker Subject: Re: Question about Latex mattresses Matthew, Organic wool is our sole flame barrier. http://www.flobeds.com/burntest.html The wool is certified organic and has not been treated with any chemicals whatsoever, if you purchase one of our Green mattresses you will have a chemical free sleeping environment. At 11:22 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Hello, My wife and I are looking for a full size, 100% natural latex mattress for our son who has allergies. I would like to know if your latex beds and associated covers are 100% free of all flame retardants both synthetic and natural (other than organic wool)? Examples of flame retardants would be Silica, Boron, Boric Acid, PBDEs, Formaldehyde, etc. We are under the impression that wool acts as the natural flame barrier. We want to be 100% sure that the wool has NOT been been processed or sprayed in any way with anything to enhance its natural flame retardant properties or that any other material has been added to the bed before placing an order. I look forward to your prompt reply, Matthew Becker In all I am impressed with both answers. I really wish SleepEZ had their flame tests online as well. Unless these companies are outright lying, and I don't believe they are, wool truely is a natural flame barrier! What am I going to buy? I am pretty sure we are going with the 7000 organic/natural series from SleepEZ. I will discuss with my wife. The acutal test results from FloBeds and the accompanying video is a power sway for me though. Proof behind the pudding! This message was modified Nov 11, 2010 by moon1234
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| Also as a followup to my original question of if the swapped layers are used. I called Shawn and he said that ALL layers sent out are new. He said that he actually does not get many swaps back. When they do come back he said that he offers the swapped layers locally (disclosed as swaps to the purchaser) at a discount. He said he has no problem selling them. |
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The 1633 standard is set up in a way that assumes that the mattress has ticking, bedclothes and sheets etc over the fire retardent barrier that will contribute to the fire and keep on burning after the flame is removed. It then tests for total heat release in the first 10 minutes (15 MJ) and peak heat release over 30 minutes (200 KW). The idea is to prevent "flashover" where the temperature gets so high that everything nearby starts to burn without direct contact with the flame and to give the occupant time to escape. Bear in mind that this is heat release and not "open flame" although they are connected. Smouldering may not go over the 10 minute test but it could go over the 30 minute test (which is why they have it). Because there is heat applied to the side for 50 seconds (70 on top), there would be some "up" burning". I personally would tend to believe what you have been told as my doubts lie not in the facts as known by the mattress manufacturer ... there is no doubt in my mind that the wool they and many others use passes the test... but in the original processing of the wool and ticking. Different qualities and processing methods of wool have different flammability qualities. At the very least ... the wool needs to be thicker and then compressed (thus the 4" you were told earlier which would then be compressed to a thinner layer). There are some very stringent organic manufacturers out there who do use thicker "organic" wool that is compressed and use it on the sides as well and they pass the test. It is not so much the actual thickness as the oz/sq ft and the type and quality of wool that makes the real difference. This is the main reason that I didn't use wool in my quilting since I believed that not only would it need to be compressed and not be as "fluffy" (confirmed by my experience where the same mattress had a compressed wool fire barrier option and that bed was firmer) but that it would also compress over time and harden up my latex. Of course my mattress doesn't have a removeable cover so I couldn't take it off and fluff it up as you can with the removeable covers. In the end, it didn't really matter so much to me since the old standard was more than sufficient in my eyes and if I had my choice I would rather have a mattress that didn't comply with any standard if compliance meant doing anything that would in any way "denature" or "alter" the materials used. I am also not as sensitive as many others are and a completely organic mattress is not as high on my list of priorities as it is for some others. I am much more "sensitive" to dumb regulations (laughing). I really don't like what the regulations have forced the industry into doing and the distortions of information that have come about as a result. Interesting about Berkeley Ergonomics. They make a really nice microcoil mattress and in the early part of my search I was seriously looking at a mattress of this type since another one I tried was really comfortable. I wonder why they use them for their testing since they don't commercially sell the same mattress as flobeds and the mattress has to be tested as a complete unit (the cover cannot be tested by itself and used on "multiple mattresses"). There are some minor exceptions with this if the "other" mattress is not substantially different from the prototype that was tested. The source of all this information is the regulation itself rather than anything I have been told. Phoenix This message was modified Nov 11, 2010 by Phoenix
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I would tend to go with something a little thicker than 6" as well. Perhaps even more important ... given that you have some good options for testing near you ... I would go (with your son) and lay on some mattresses with different ILD's and layering before I bought something online as you will have a much much better idea of what is suitable for you. This is probably more important than anything else in terms of getting it "right" ... especially if you are thinking of a thinner mattress with less "changeability" in the layering. Phoenix |
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Phoenix wrote: Interesting about Berkeley Ergonomics. They make a really nice microcoil mattress and in the early part of my search I was seriously looking at a mattress of this type since another one I tried was really comfortable. I wonder why they use them for their testing since they don't commercially sell the same mattress as flobeds and the mattress has to be tested as a complete unit (the cover cannot be tested by itself and used on "multiple mattresses"). There are some minor exceptions with this if the "other" mattress is not substantially different from the prototype that was tested. The source of all this information is the regulation itself rather than anything I have been told. Phoenix |