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I seem to remember a post some time ago which discussed how to decide how many layers to go with. But I can't find it! Anyone remember this? Or can help me out now? Me - 5'6", 160, side and stomach sleeper. Husband - 5'10", 170, stomach sleeper. I definitely like more cushion than my husband. I'm thinking to put these latex layers on top of our current box spring, whcih seems to be in good condition (and is attached nicely to our iron bed :) Also, I'm thinking either Firm or X Firm core - any advice here? Susan |
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cloud9 wrote: Dunlop latex is very different in feel from Talalay. I slept on a Dunlop for over 20 years. I don't even think it was 6" thick and was sold with a boxspring. Having slept on both Dunlop and Talalay I have to say I really prefer the Dunlop. Talalay can be tricky to configure. Too firm and it can feel like it's excerting pressure on your body. Too soft, your hips sink in. Dunlop on the other hand doesn't share any of these characteristics. I think with Talalay it's absolutely necessary to build a mattress out of several layers of different ILD's. With Dunlop it's possible to get support and comfort all in the same layer. I agree that a single core of latex cannot be both supportive AND soft. Perhaps for a front or back sleeper it could work, but not for a side-sleeper. IMO. In order for any foam to accomplish this feat, I think it would need to be soft on the top and more firm toward the bottom. I don't know how dunlop latex was made in the 60's, but one of the things I read over and over about dunlop latex is that the heavier particles sink to the bottom. I have only a layman's understanding of this, but I can see how this cwould make dunlop more firm on the bottom. I also suspect this is highly variable and it may not be wise to over-generalize this being a characteristic of all dunlop latex. Depending on whether a company felt this characteristic was desirable or undesirable, they could possibly alter their process to maximize this characteristic or minimize it. Talalay has a uniform density throughout the foam and therefore in order to simulate this soft-on-the-top firmer-on-the-bottom feel, it must be layered. This is just my own "theory" as to why dunlop latex might feel different than talalay. There are companies who still swear by dunlop latex. I have been guilty of assuming this was due to availability and price rather than a choice based on quality, but it may relate to this hard to quantify aspect of "feel." |
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Thanks for the info on Dunlop. Now I'm leaning towards going with it, although I was hoping not to spend quite that much - ~$1000 for just the core. I would step up the firmness to firm topper on top of x-firm core. Their display was medium topper on x-firm core. Is anyone familiar with mattresses.net? They're offering just the core for $600. It's Talalay, 60/40 synthetic/natural. Anyone buy from them before? I wonder where they get their mattresses from. |
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suz312 wrote: Is anyone familiar with mattresses.net? They're offering just the core for $600. It's Talalay, 60/40 synthetic/natural. Anyone buy from them before? I wonder where they get their mattresses from. I have not done business with them but they have crossed my radar for the simple fact that they sell solid core mattresses and their prices are good. I spent $900 on a Cal King Talatech core, and this was a very good price. FoamSource wanted over $1100. Remember, there are only three companies which manufacture talalay latex at this time, AFAIK, and as far as Dewey at FloBeds or Shawn at SleepEZ are aware. It won't be long before we start seeing Chinese talalay latex mattresses, but this isn't happening yet. There is Latex International of course, Dunlopillo in the UK, and Radium in the Netherlands. SleepEZ.com has some information on each of these companies. Talatech may be the best, but his customers that hail from Europe swear by Dunlopillo according to Shawn. Dunlopillo has been in business since the 1930's. They invented the talalay process in 1946. They were the first to produce an all natural talalay. Radium is a subsidiary of the Vita Group, an international company with over 8000 employees. They list 18 brands of mattresses on their website that use their Vita Talalay latex. They have manufactured talalay latex since 1961. I don't really see how you can go too far wrong purchasing talalay latex even if you don't know who makes it, because they are all good. A picture from Radium's website. They do some kinky fabrication. This message was modified Oct 19, 2007 by haysdb
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Thanks again Hayes for your very helpful info. Do you think I could go wrong buying a Dunlop mattress? May I ask where you got your Talatech Cal King? That is a great price for the Talatech. I was pretty set on getting a Talatech core, before I came across this Dunlop core at this foam store. It was so comfy! Maybe I should go with a Talatech core, and add the 3" topper and padded case from this store. Now, trying to compare apples with oranges ~ do you think a 100% natural Dunlop x-firm core might equate in firmness to a Talalay firm core? |
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suz312 wrote: Thanks again Hayes for your very helpful info. Do you think I could go wrong buying a Dunlop mattress? May I ask where you got your Talatech Cal King? That is a great price for the Talatech. I was pretty set on getting a Talatech core, before I came across this Dunlop core at this foam store. It was so comfy! Maybe I should go with a Talatech core, and add the 3" topper and padded case from this store. Now, trying to compare apples with oranges ~ do you think a 100% natural Dunlop x-firm core might equate in firmness to a Talalay firm core? [Begin Book] The firmness descriptions such as Firm, Extra Firm and Super Firm are not standardized units of measure. One company's X-firm may be another company's Firm or Super Firm. ILD's are more useful. Both FloBeds and SleepEZ show the ILD ranges that correspond to their descriptions. They use the descriptions because they at least mean SOMETHING to folks who don't know an ILD from an IUD, and us tech-heads can find the numbers on the FAQ pages. The risk with dunlop is there are a LOT of manufacturers of dunlop, with quality ranging from excellent (Sapsa etal.) to, I would imagine, pretty poor. Dunlop latex is produced around the world. With talalay you know you are getting a good product because you know it comes from one of three companies and they are all reputable "Name Brand " companies. Not necessarily true for dunlop since the capital costs to produce dunlop are a fraction of what they are for talalay. SleepEZ carries all three brands of talalay and they carry some natural dunlop latex. Shawn would be an excellent person to talk to about the differences between the different processes and brands because he's agnostic about which you buy so will tell you honestly what he perceives the differences to be. They sell mattresses as thin as two layers (one full core) and their prices will be competitive. If I could rewind to the beginning but keep my current knowledge, I would buy one of their 8500's as my "support mattress" under my Intelli-Gel topper, because that's almost exactly what I'm going to end up with - a 5.6" core plus 2" in toppers (the 8500 has a 1.4" top layer). Soft, Firm, Firm is what I'm going to end up with. If I had exchange privileges, I would swap my bottom layer for an X-Firm. I will end up spending a lot more than I would have if I had just bought a complete mattress in the first place - on the order of $1600 for what I could have bought for $1275. One more thing. Something to know about latex and ILD's is, they aren't necessarily consistent. Latex International measures every single core, and yet they can be 10% less firm than the nominal ILD. My ILD 40 core is a bit less than 38. I have an ILD 44 core that I swear is no more firm than my 40 (38). The variation will be even greater with dunlop, because there is more variation in the process and they don't test every core. Basically what I'm telling you is don't get too hung up on a difference of 4. A change in ILD of 4 is a bit like 3 dB, which is the smallest change in volume that can be readily perceived by the human ear. It's one step, and a rather small step at that. Just as you can have a 40 and a 44 that are actually the same firmness, you could potentially have a 40 and a 44 that are different by 8, because both 42 and 42 and 46 and 38 are plus or minus 2. The moral of this story is that even if you know what you want, you might not get it. I consider comfort exchanges very nearly a non-negotiable requirement unless your are REALLY cheap and not very discriminating. There are people who can "sleep on a bed of nails" and for them it might not matter. But if you don't have the option, and your mattress is too soft or two firm, you will be out buying more foam and any money you initially saved will be gone. [End Book] Edit: I bought my core from Jackie at Creative Ventures. She specializes in all-natural products, including natural dunlop latex, which she gets through Sleep Comp, a major distributer of latex. She was able to special order the Talalay core for me and have it cut to my specifications. It was drop-shipped directly from LI's fabrication facility to my door. Unfortunately she tells me LI will no longer drop ship, so at the very least you will now have to pay two shipping charges - one from LI to her and another from her to you. If you are looking for natural dunlop, or anything that Sleep Comp carries, give her a call. She created her business after looking for natural products for herself and not finding what she wanted. She is fun to talk to because she has gone through the same things we go through in shopping for a mattress or a topper or pillows or whatever. A really cool lady, and no bull. This message was modified Oct 20, 2007 by haysdb
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It's really very difficult to compare Talalay to Dunlop. Dunlop has a more solid feel to it. A firm Dunlop would probably be more like an extra firm Talalay. Somewhere on the old forum someone wrote that Talalay is like angel food cake and Dunlop is more like pound cake. The manufacturing process is very different. Firm Talalay has less air whipped into the mixture. With Dunlop firmness is determined by the size of the pin holes in the core. The larger they are the softer the latex. I don't know about Dunlop being denser on the bottom than on the top. My old mattress was double sided. I flipped it over every few months. It felt the same on both sides. I would be warry of any latex mattress that feels too soft. Particularly with Talalay. Soft Dunlop is more supportive and distributes your body weight more evenly. You won't find your hips sinking in after a few hours. However, I recommend lying on the bed for at least an hour before you decide to buy it. It takes about that long for your muscles to start feeling any strain, and it will only get worse the longer you lay there. Sometimes latex mattresses feel wonderful when you first lie down, but after a few hours that nice feeling goes away and you find yourself struggling to find enough support. This is especially true of soft Talalay. One other caveat. With Talalay --natural or blended-- you are assured of getting a high quality product if it comes from LI. Much of the natural Dunlop is Asian in origin, and the quality of the product is uncertain. So if you go with the Dunlop make sure you understand the warranty and the store you buy the mattress from is ready to stand behind it. |
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I have a block of dunlop latex from foamonline that's the same thickness as my Talatech. It's marked as Ex Firm ILD 44, so it is more firm than my LI talalay, but it feels pretty much the same to me, just more firm. Granted, laying on a full layer of it might feel different, but it's just not a night and day difference. I am reminded of the story of the three blind men and the elephant - one grabs the trunk, one touches a leg, and the other grabs the tail, and they spend the rest of their days arguing about what an elephant is. We each have different experiences with different products. This message was modified Oct 20, 2007 by haysdb
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I'm glad I asked because I was thinking the Dunlop was softer, so a x-firm Dunlop would be more like a firm or med Talalay. Hayes - Thanks for the info on Creative Ventures - this is one I have not come across before. She lists a Talalay Cal King core as $650. Is that not the one from LI? Or did she special order an LI one for you? After doing lots of research, I have this idea that the LI Talatech is the best, but I don't know why. If all 3 manufacturers of Talalay are good, is there any reason why you wanted the LI Talalay? Is SleepEZ talalay from LI? SleepEZ does indeed have a great deal on 2 layer (or 3 layer if you want to look at the core split in 2). I don't know why I passed them up before. Cloud - Yeah, the Dunlop I saw in the store said it was a "no flipper", which I interpreted as that being a typical benefit of latex in general. It may be made in China, as it is cheaper than the Talalay, and it's 100% natural, which I would guess should be more expensive, but no research done on that one. The qualities of Dunlop sound nice, the fact that the layering isn't necessary, which is what I experienced at the store (granted, just 30 min or so). But now I do worry about it disintegrating, or whatever, since I don't know the manufacturer. This place does have a long warranty on this mattress, but they're not known for the best customer service, as I've ready on epinions. They have a very nice showroom tho, and the sales people seemed genuine, tho a bit uneducated on some things. Now I don't know what to do. These are the options I'm considering now:
The whole set from the store I visited would be $2300 - too much. I could probably build my own cheaper, looking for a cheaper 3" topper and cheaper case. This case was organic cotton, wool and even had some muslin in it. And it was a terry or velour. It was so comfy! Can anyone recommend something similar? Doesn't have to be organic. |
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suz312 wrote: I'm glad I asked because I was thinking the Dunlop was softer, so a x-firm Dunlop would be more like a firm or med Talalay. Hays - Thanks for the info on Creative Ventures - this is one I have not come across before. She lists a Talalay Cal King core as $650. Is that not the one from LI? Or did she special order an LI one for you? After doing lots of research, I have this idea that the LI Talatech is the best, but I don't know why. If all 3 manufacturers of Talalay are good, is there any reason why you wanted the LI Talalay? Is SleepEZ talalay from LI? SleepEZ does indeed have a great deal on 2 layer (or 3 layer if you want to look at the core split in 2). I don't know why I passed them up before. Cloud - Yeah, the Dunlop I saw in the store said it was a "no flipper", which I interpreted as that being a typical benefit of latex in general. It may be made in China, as it is cheaper than the Talalay, and it's 100% natural, which I would guess should be more expensive, but no research done on that one. The qualities of Dunlop sound nice, the fact that the layering isn't necessary, which is what I experienced at the store (granted, just 30 min or so). But now I do worry about it disintegrating, or whatever, since I don't know the manufacturer. This place does have a long warranty on this mattress, but they're not known for the best customer service, as I've ready on epinions. They have a very nice showroom tho, and the sales people seemed genuine, tho a bit uneducated on some things. Now I don't know what to do. These are the options I'm considering now:
The whole set from the store I visited would be $2300 - too much. I could probably build my own cheaper, looking for a cheaper 3" topper and cheaper case. This case was organic cotton, wool and even had some muslin in it. And it was a terry or velour. It was so comfy! Can anyone recommend something similar? Doesn't have to be organic. I do not believe the prices on Creative Ventures website are current, and yet they might be since that would be (in all likelihood) Vita Talalay from Radium. But do not assume they are current prices. Jackie did special order my core for me. I personally wanted LI Talatech because I believed (and still do) that it is the best quality, and I took a liking to the company after reading their history. Their factory burned down in 2001 but they arose from the ashes to build a new state-of-the-art manufacturing facility. And they are an American company. I'm not positive whose latex SleepEZ is using. I think it's LI, but I can't swear to it and they don't specifically say on their website. Their prices seem awfully low for LI since I paid almost as much for a raw core as they charge for a core with a nice cover. I really do not recommend you build your own mattress unless you are wanting to do something that is just so unique that nobody can accommodate you. You are unlikely to save any money over FloBeds or SleepEZ for equivalent quality materials. |
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When I ordered my blended Talalay mattress from SleepEz I asked Shawn who the supplier was. He said LI. This was back in February. Things do change. Call him and ask. SleepEz sells a very nice product at a really great price. The only drawback is the one comfort exchange limit and the 15% restocking fee if it doesn't work out. On the blended vrs natural issue: On the one hand natural latex has a certain appeal-- it comes from trees. It's "real" foam rubber. On the other hand, like wine, natural latex has it's vintages. Sometimes it's a good year. Sometimes not. Talatech--LI's blended latex product, is said to be more consistent than natural latex since the synthetic component stablizes any impurities in the natural element. But LI has very exacting standards for its natural latex product and will stand behind it. As for natural Asian latex--who knows? If anyone knows a source for blended Dunlop latex made in the USA, I'd love to know about it. My old Dunlop was blended American made. I think 20 years is more than acceptable for a mattress to last. Even when it starts to disintegrate it's not like it just falls apart. You just start to notice "sand" under the mattress when you make the bed. But it never sagged. Now, as for those little sample pieces... All they're really good for is to give you some idea of how pretty the latex is and what it smells and feels like. Just squeezing it in your hand doesn't give you a realistic idea of what it will be like to actually lie on an actual core, or even how it will feel when it's layered over other cores of different ILDs. And Suz-- I'd think about buying a mattress from any merchant with an iffy customer service reputation very carefully. You may never need it, but if you do--and with latex that's a very real possibility--it's really good to know that it's there. |